[goMac]

"Hezbollah’s reputation as an efficient grass-roots social service network — as opposed to the Lebanese government, regarded by many here as sleek men in suits doing well — was in evidence everywhere. Young men with walkie-talkies and clipboards were in the battered Shiite neighborhoods on the southern edge of Bint Jbail, taking notes on the extent of the damage."

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/1...build-lebanon/

Gee. I wonder who we can thank for clearing the way for Hezbollah to come in and "be the hero."

[greenG4]

Ooh. What else can we blame Israel for?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by greenG4

Ooh. What else can we blame Israel for?

Well, here is how Israel's war on Hezbollah seems to be going.

a) Israel claims Hezbollah is too strong, and proceeds to bomb whatever country they are in.
b) Countries infrastructure is damaged and civilians are killed.
c) Hezbollah offers to rebuild the country.
d) People join Hezbollah and Hezbollah takes control of the local government. Hezbollah becomes stronger than they were before Israel bombed them.
e) Israel claims Hezbollah is too strong, and proceeds to bomb whatever country they are in...

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by goMac

Well, here is how Israel's war on Hezbollah seems to be going.

a) Israel claims Hezbollah is too strong, and proceeds to bomb whatever country they are in.
b) Countries infrastructure is damaged and civilians are killed.
c) Hezbollah offers to rebuild the country.
d) People join Hezbollah and Hezbollah takes control of the local government. Hezbollah becomes stronger than they were before Israel bombed them.
e) Israel claims Hezbollah is too strong, and proceeds to bomb whatever country they are in...

Where's that wheel of Karma pic of Kevin's…

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by goMac

Well, here is how Israel's war on Hezbollah seems to be going.

a) Israel claims Hezbollah is too strong, and proceeds to bomb whatever country they are in.
b) Countries infrastructure is damaged and civilians are killed.
c) Hezbollah offers to rebuild the country.
d) People join Hezbollah and Hezbollah takes control of the local government. Hezbollah becomes stronger than they were before Israel bombed them.
e) Israel claims Hezbollah is too strong, and proceeds to bomb whatever country they are in...

Ignoring, for the sake of argument, the fact that you're a Jew-hater, what would you have done one month ago if you had been in command of Israel's armed forces? (And FYI, "nothing" is not a valid strategy.)

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Ignoring, for the sake of argument, the fact that you're a Jew-hater, what would you have done one month ago if you had been in command of Israel's armed forces? (And FYI, "nothing" is not a valid strategy.)

What? No thats not a loaded question AT ALL...

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Ignoring, for the sake of argument, the fact that you're a Jew-hater, what would you have done one month ago if you had been in command of Israel's armed forces? (And FYI, "nothing" is not a valid strategy.)

Ignoring the typical Zionist non sequitur that a critic of Israel == "Jew-hater", if the Israeli PM had simply pursued the option of a prisoner exchange he may well have spared his country from a month of death, destruction and humiliation.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Ignoring, for the sake of argument, the fact that you're a Jew-hater, what would you have done one month ago if you had been in command of Israel's armed forces? (And FYI, "nothing" is not a valid strategy.)

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/060814_sr_v2n11.pdf

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by eklipse

Ignoring the typical Zionist non sequitur that a critic of Israel == "Jew-hater", if the Israeli PM had simply pursued the option of a prisoner exchange he may well have spared his country from a month of death, destruction and humiliation.

You know, I remember a time when you were opposed to releasing criminals.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by vmarks

You know, I remember a time when you were opposed to releasing criminals.

He didn't mean muslim criminals, silly. Everyone knows that muslims can't be criminals, so should be released immediately.

[vmarks]

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...ed#post1545953

Originally Posted by eklipse from 2003

I must admit I never quite got this one. If the prisoners were held in prison for a legitimate reason then releasing them in a bid for peace is an exercise in futility. If, however, they were illegitimately incarcerated on political grounds, then simply releasing them is not enough - there should be proper compensation and investigations made into why they were wrongly convicted in the first place - with a mind on introducing measures to insure it does not happen again.

[Monique]

And where will Iran get the money from? Their own ifrastructures are a mess, people are hungry, they do not have enough doctors or hospitals.

That little 10 years war with Iraq cost them dearly and still is costing them a lot.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Ignoring, for the sake of argument, the fact that you're a Jew-hater, what would you have done one month ago if you had been in command of Israel's armed forces? (And FYI, "nothing" is not a valid strategy.)

So explain why, from my post, I'm anti-Hezbollah? My argument is simply that Israel has made the situation in the Middle East that much more difficult for themselves, and us.

As to what I would do, either letting the prisoners die or using diplomacy would have been better than strengthening the Hezbollah position with war.

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by vmarks

You know, I remember a time when you were opposed to releasing criminals.

Yes, if they are indeed criminals and not being held for political purposes - which is what I actually send in the post you have quoted above.


Even so, if it came down to it, I think I would prefer letting a few criminals go if it would have prevented 1000+ innocent deaths and massive property damage.

[davesimondotcom]

Iran gives Hezbollah "unlimited budget" to rebuild arsenal

Headline fixed™

Funny how the US puts all kinds of money into rebuilding Afghanistan and Iraq, and in many parts of both countries, lots of good has happened, yet we don't get many touchy feely stories about US military and contractors holding walkie-talkies and clipboards.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Headline fixed™

Funny how the US puts all kinds of money into rebuilding Afghanistan and Iraq, and in many parts of both countries, lots of good has happened, yet we don't get many touchy feely stories about US military and contractors holding walkie-talkies and clipboards.

Unfortunately the people we hired to do work in Iraq took the money and ran. Power and water are still out in many areas, along with hospitals.

Here's a good article:
http://www.gatago.com/seattle/politics/12246575.html

I suppose the US gets an A for effort, but definitely an F for results.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by goMac

I suppose the US gets an A for effort, but definitely an F for results.

And we'll get an F for effort if we pull out and run away with our tail between our legs.

My point was why does Hezbollah already get an A for results when they haven't done anything yet?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

And we'll get an F for effort if we pull out and run away with our tail between our legs.

My point was why does Hezbollah already get an A for results when they haven't done anything yet?

They don't. I'm not supporting Hezbollah.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by goMac

They don't. I'm not supporting Hezbollah.

I didn't say you were giving them that grade. If that's the way it seemed, I'm sorry for that. I meant that the press has covered their efforts in "rebuilding" Lebanon a lot more positively than our efforts to rebuild Iraq.

The funny thing is, Hezbollah is pretty much directly responsible for the damage to Lebanon. It was their hiding in civilian homes, schools, etc. that caused much of the destruction.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by goMac

Gee. I wonder who we can thank for clearing the way for Hezbollah to come in and "be the hero."

I don't care what social services they provide as long as they're disarmed in accordance with the UNSC resolution. If that happens, it's a win-win for Israel and Lebanon IMO.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by goMac

So explain why, from my post, I'm anti-Hezbollah? My argument is simply that Israel has made the situation in the Middle East that much more difficult for themselves, and us.

The Middle East has always been and will always be difficult. Not opposing the state sponsored terrorism of Hezballah would have made things even more difficult, because it would have inspired Hezballah to be even more brazen with its attacks in the future.

As to what I would do, either letting the prisoners die or using diplomacy would have been better than strengthening the Hezbollah position with war.

So letting Hezballah get away with brazen acts of war by allowing the abductions to occur and letting hundreds of rocket attacks per week rain down on your cities would have been the best course for Israel to take in your opinion. Are you daft? Or are you speaking from the viewpoint that Israel should be wiped off the map? There is a time and a place for diplomacy, but as a response to open warfare diplomacy without an armed response is a worthless endeavor.

[gururafiki]

Originally Posted by Monique

And where will Iran get the money from? Their own ifrastructures are a mess, people are hungry, they do not have enough doctors or hospitals.

That little 10 years war with Iraq cost them dearly and still is costing them a lot.

Oil.

[Monique]

Originally Posted by gururafiki

Oil.

Which is getting more and more limited. And they hardly have any money for themselves and they will not use it to help others, it is beyond their capabilities, and they have no heart.

[gururafiki]

Originally Posted by Monique

Which is getting more and more limited. And they hardly have any money for themselves and they will not use it to help others, it is beyond their capabilities, and they have no heart.

The oil reserve is shrinking, yes. But it's certainly not gone yet. Neither is the demand for it. They do not put very much money back into infrastructure or help for the poor/sick, so all that oil revenue must go somewhere. They probably spend it on nuclear research and Hezbollah.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by Monique

Which is getting more and more limited. And they hardly have any money for themselves and they will not use it to help others, it is beyond their capabilities, and they have no heart.

They have plenty of oil money, you're just mistaken in thinking they have the same priorities with their money that a democratic state would have. They don't.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

The Middle East has always been and will always be difficult. Not opposing the state sponsored terrorism of Hezballah would have made things even more difficult, because it would have inspired Hezballah to be even more brazen with its attacks in the future.


So letting Hezballah get away with brazen acts of war by allowing the abductions to occur and letting hundreds of rocket attacks per week rain down on your cities would have been the best course for Israel to take in your opinion. Are you daft? Or are you speaking from the viewpoint that Israel should be wiped off the map? There is a time and a place for diplomacy, but as a response to open warfare diplomacy without an armed response is a worthless endeavor.

omg

*SMACKDOWN*

good post.

[Krusty]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

My point was why does Hezbollah already get an A for results when they haven't done anything yet?

Actually, they're looking like a strong candidate for "A" for results just days after hostilities ended. All the Western aid groups going in now seem to be finding that Hezbollah has already taken care of the vast majority of those affected -- distributing $12k a piece to affected families (about 2.5x the average yearly salary in the region and 10x in absolute dollar what Katrina victims got from the US govt. ... and that 1.2k the US govt. gave would be lucky to equal about 2-3 weeks average salary). They had the roads cleared in 2 days flat and have already re-surveyed the land in most of the destroyed cities in preparation for rebuilding. Their assistance has been doled out completely independently of whether its recipients were Shia, Sunni, or Christian.

Whether you love them, hate them, or are indifferent to them ... the fact of the matter is that Hezbollah is clearly running one h#ll of a tight ship from their military ops down to reconstruction and put the Lebanese and Western government's bloat, bureaucracy, and inefficiency to shame.

Call them an adversary ... but they are proving themselves to be a worthy adversary in the same way the Viet Cong was to the US in Vietnam and the mujahadeen were to the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by goMac

So letting Hezballah get away with brazen acts of war by allowing the abductions to occur and letting hundreds of rocket attacks per week rain down on your cities would have been the best course for Israel to take in your opinion. Are you daft? Or are you speaking from the viewpoint that Israel should be wiped off the map? There is a time and a place for diplomacy, but as a response to open warfare diplomacy without an armed response is a worthless endeavor.

Israel tried their best for 5 weeks to stop ... or at least stem the tide ... of Hezbollah missiles and were thoroughly embarrassed by their complete and utter inability to do so. Hezbollah successfully fired more and more as time passed. Seeing how Israel's military solution was a pathetic failure and that hostilities were eventually ended by diplomacy .... I'd say that the "time and place for diplomacy" was probably soon if not immediately after the kidnapping incident .... after maybe a quick and dirty bombing run into the localized area from which the kidnappers were operating.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by eklipse

Ignoring the typical Zionist non sequitur that a critic of Israel == "Jew-hater", if the Israeli PM had simply pursued the option of a prisoner exchange he may well have spared his country from a month of death, destruction and humiliation.

Yes, that way showing terrorists that when they do bad things. They get their way.

Good idea.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by goMac

My argument is simply that Israel has made the situation in the Middle East that much more difficult for themselves, and us.

No, Hezbollah and terrorist sympathizers have.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by vmarks

You know, I remember a time when you were opposed to releasing criminals.

Criminals or political prisoners?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

The Middle East has always been and will always be difficult. Not opposing the state sponsored terrorism of Hezballah would have made things even more difficult, because it would have inspired Hezballah to be even more brazen with its attacks in the future.

Hezbollah says that the soldiers were captured during a commando raid on a village INSIDE Lebanon. Israel then sent a tank to help out and it struck a mine killing the 5 crew members. That definitely happened inside Lebanon because the tank carcass was still there. Initial press reports (from Reuters and AFP) also said that the 2 Israelis were captured inside Lebanon. It was only after the IDF said that they were captured inside Israel that the media started telling that story.

I don't think it's particularly relevant, but there is some doubt surrounding Israel's story.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Krusty

Hezbollah has already taken care of the vast majority of those affected -- distributing $12k a piece to affected families (about 2.5x the average yearly salary in the region

That's disturbing.

I might add if the U.S. did that very same thing they'd be accused of trying to 'buy' the lebanese.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

That's disturbing.

I might add if the U.S. did that very same thing they'd be accused of trying to 'buy' the lebanese.

And that is EXACTLY What Hezzie is doing.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kevin

And that is EXACTLY What Hezzie is doing.

I don't think that's being debated. The problem is Israel has opened the door for Hezbollah's membership to be strengthened.