Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Cody Dawg · Aug 19, 2006, 11:22 AM

BOSTON (AP) — Wearing lipstick, a scooped-neck sweater and nearly waist-length hair, the witness cried while describing what it feels like to be a woman trapped inside a man's body.
"The greatest loss is the dying I do inside a little bit every day," said Michelle Kosilek, an inmate who is serving a life sentence for murder.

Michelle Kosilek was Robert Kosilek when he was convicted in the killing of his wife. In 1993, while in prison, he legally changed his name to Michelle. Since then, Kosilek has been fighting with prison officials to complete his transformation into a woman.

Kosilek, 57, wants the state Department of Correction to pay for a sex-change operation. After two lawsuits and two trials, the decision now rests with a federal court judge.

From USA Today

This is a gross misuse of taxpayers' money thus far: The fact that this is even being debated in the legal system.

The fact that this guy even asks for a sex change operation - and it is being considered in way, shape, or form - is disgusting.

Can anyone defend this? What makes this guy think he has a right to anything other than busting rocks on the side of the road in a chain gang? If he is worrying about his gender and these types of things he has too much time on his hands in prison is what I say.

It's time to put Joe Arpaio in charge of the penitentiary system in the entire United States.

invisibleX · Aug 19, 2006, 12:27 PM

Might this be the wrong forum? Seems more weird than political.

Oh my, the murderer is going to commit suicide if he doesn't get his boobies. The horror.

Kr0nos · 01:28 PM

If I had to go to prison, the last thing I would want to have is a sex change. Think about it!

/Unless that meant, that I would be transferred to an all female correction facility.

//Which, on second thought, might be exactly what this guy is after.

Cody Dawg · Aug 19, 2006, 12:33 PM

Yes, "the horror."

I put it here because I'm sure some lefties are going to rouse themselves from bed to defend this aberrant.

goMac · Aug 19, 2006, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yes, "the horror."

I put it here because I'm sure some lefties are going to rouse themselves from bed to defend this aberrant.

Mmmmmm. Nope. Not me.

Cody Dawg · Aug 19, 2006, 03:45 PM

Wait a minute. The lefties still haven't gotten up from partying the night before.

They probably won't be here until Monday.

thunderous_funker · Aug 19, 2006, 04:01 PM

Why would you expect "lefties" to argue on behalf of this guy?

Mithras · 04:38 PM

Alright, I'll give it a crack:

This guy will be a ward of the state for the rest of his natural life. Everything that he receives will be paid for by taxpayers -- not because we think he's a swell guy and feel like buying him three square meals a day, dentistry, health care, and a slice of cake on Sundays, but because it's the price we collectively pay for living in a safe, decent society. You can always go to Saudi Arabia or Singapore if you'd rather see criminals get their nuts crushed or hands chopped off or whatever strikes you as fair.

Now, as for the operation -- if the guy is "faking", obviously he deserves nothing, any more than he'd deserve pain meds if he were faking cancer. But if the condition is real, and you accept that there can exist the biological condition of having a mismatch between your brain and your body, why deny him the operation just because we think it's icky, or a mere cosmetic nicety?

Would you suggest that we turn down someone who asks for surgery to repair a disfiguring but nondangerous cyst in their forehead? Or in the realm of mental health, should the criminal justice system refuse treatment for depression or psychosis on the theory that prisoners deserve a miserable life anyway?

Or, if you prefer, Matthew 25:34-40

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

invisibleX · Aug 19, 2006, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yes, "the horror."

I put it here because I'm sure some lefties are going to rouse themselves from bed to defend this aberrant.

Sigh, the right has no heart and the left has too much. You folks need to drop the political bandwagon for awhile. It isn't healthy.

Cody Dawg · Aug 19, 2006, 06:24 PM

I'm in the middle so I guess I'm fine.

And...I still think it's a crock that this GUY has so much time on his hand that he wants to change his gender so he can be a better prison whore - for the rest of HIS life.

Chuckit · Aug 19, 2006, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mithras

But if the condition is real, and you accept that there can exist the biological condition of having a mismatch between your brain and your body, why deny him the operation just because we think it's icky, or a mere cosmetic nicety?

There may exist a "mismatch between your brain and your body," but it's not something a cold-blooded killer really deserves to have looked into for him. I also don't think they should do lipo for him because he'd feel better if he were skinny.

thunderous_funker · Aug 19, 2006, 06:37 PM

Mithras,

that is a very well reasoned and stated argument and I commend you for it. I just don't consider this type of surgery to be necessary. Its not that I don't believe those kinds of gender identity issues are real or important, I just don't consider them life-threatening.

He may not be happy as a man, but he'll live. If he could pay for the surgery out of his own pocket, we wouldn't even be having the discussion. He's no more deserving of this surgery as a ward of the state than anyone living free. Should those who can't afford gender reassignment surgery sue for the "right" to have it?

ghporter · Aug 19, 2006, 06:43 PM

It is not our place to decide whether or not this person's request is valid. The VERY FIRST step in the transgender process is some serious, long-term psychological counseling and evaluation. If a number of shrinks agree that the person has the disorder he says he does, then THEY start the process. Denying this person this treatment would be the same thing as denying antipsychotic drugs to a delusional schizophrenic. If he really has the disorder, then it should be treated. If not, the shrinks will nail him as a faker and we can all laugh at the attempted dodge.

But Cody, if he has the operation, "she" won't be a "prison whore" they way you're thinking-she'll be in a women's prison.

Chuckit · Aug 19, 2006, 06:49 PM

A person may not be faking being fat, but that doesn't mean we should pay for their lipo.

Cody Dawg · Aug 19, 2006, 07:12 PM

Chuckit

There may exist a "mismatch between your brain and your body," but it's not something a cold-blooded killer really deserves to have looked into for him. I also don't think they should do lipo for him because he'd feel better if he were skinny.

GREAT POST.

And ghporter, the whole thing about a MAN being in a woman's prison doesn't fly very well. He doesn't belong in a woman's prison and a LOT of women would be very upset by the fact that he's in there with them. A lot of them.

And where does this garbage stop? Chuckit said it best: "I have a terrible fear of being fat. Give me lipo or I'll kill myself."

See?

OreoCookie · Aug 19, 2006, 07:53 PM

Cody, it seems that you are opposed to the idea of changing sex in the first place.

If you are, having one while being in jail isn't any better. Mithras made a very nice post why medical care in general is an obligation of ours not just to the criminal, but to ourselves. A sex change is just one operation, not a cosmetic surgery, but something rather serious.

It's not easy to be accepted into a sex change program on the outside and I guess the same criteria hold in jail.

Chuckit · Aug 19, 2006, 07:59 PM

For the record, I have no quarrel with sex changes in general, but I do not feel that I should be paying for them. Prison is not supposed to be a good place to be — that would act as, say, a disincentive for killing your wife. Prison should not mean a free sex change operation.

itai195 · 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by invisibleX

Sigh, the right has no heart and the left has too much. You folks need to drop the political bandwagon for awhile. It isn't healthy.

Well we probably could pay for this operation more easily if the right didn't insist on incarcerating everyone who smells funny.

I wonder if they've spent more than the cost of the operation on all the legal wrangling so far. This really comes down to how you feel about gender identity disorders. If you believe they are real and serious disorders, then I agree that it would be cruel to withhold medically necessary treatment.

greenG4 · Aug 19, 2006, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

It is not our place to decide whether or not this person's request is valid. The VERY FIRST step in the transgender process is some serious, long-term psychological counseling and evaluation. If a number of shrinks agree that the person has the disorder he says he does, then THEY start the process. Denying this person this treatment would be the same thing as denying antipsychotic drugs to a delusional schizophrenic. If he really has the disorder, then it should be treated. If not, the shrinks will nail him as a faker and we can all laugh at the attempted dodge.

Your logic translates into: If the person has the disorder, treat them by playing along with their mental delusion.

At least that's the way it read to me.

Chuckit · Aug 19, 2006, 10:39 PM

There is a difference between believing something is a real disorder and believing free treatment should be given as a reward for murder.

invisibleX · Aug 20, 2006, 12:18 AM

Obviously the line is: a mental problem, or a physical problem.

I personally don't think a mental problem is cause for the operation. Medication, therapy, but not the perceived cure. This I think is where cody etc all are coming from.

I don't think there is any disagreement that a prisoner should get medical treatment. However where is the line when the disorder is mental?

Cody Dawg · Aug 20, 2006, 01:55 AM

I don't care if the guy doesn't like his gender.

THE PERSON HE ***KILLED*** DOES NOT CARE EITHER.

He KILLED someone. BAM! Someone is GONE FOREVER. Gone. An entire family is grieving - and will grieve forever. He didn't give the person he killed any compassion and as far as I'm concerned, suffering over his gender is part of his punishment. He lost the CHOICE to choose his gender for his sexual proclivities when he murdered someone. In other words, he should have thought about the consequences, even if they were, "Gee, I'd better not do this or I just might spend the rest of my life as a man." No, he killed someone without any compassion and it is ludicrous that he expects compassion.

THIS GUY DESERVES NO RELIEF FROM ANY DISCOMFORT IN LIFE...HE KILLED SOMEONE.

As far as sex change operations, I could care less what people do in reality. I'm just not footing the bill - not for someone who is a contributing member of society and certainly not a murderer.

Prison is supposed to be about reflecting upon the crime that was committed...instead this guy's prison sentence has become about what gender he wants to be and not at all about reflecting upon the life that was snuffed out...what a farce.

Cody Dawg · Aug 20, 2006, 02:10 AM

Are we going to pay for a sex change op for JonBenet Ramsey's supposed killer also?

I mean, he might be "suffering" because he's not a woman also!

The man who confessed to killing JonBenet Ramsey had another bizarre secret up his sleeve in the months before his arrest - he was visiting a surgical centre that specialises in sex-change operations.

What makes this guy any less deserving than the first guy? I mean, he might be "uncomfortable" and "depressed" over his gender also...is it now to the point in American society where if you kill someone you get a free sex change op? I mean, they can blame their crimes on their "confusion and depression" over their gender, go to prison, and as part of "rehabilitation" get a free sex change op.

Isn't that like rewarding these killers of innocent people? The dead people don't have a say, do they?

Meanwhile, their loved ones left behind are part of the taxpayer base that will foot the bill to make the killers of their loved ones more comfortable?

Pardon me for saying this, but I believe that that makes the people who advocate a sex change op for these killers in prison as psycho as the killers themselves.

Mithras · Aug 20, 2006, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

GREAT POST.

And ghporter, the whole thing about a MAN being in a woman's prison doesn't fly very well. He doesn't belong in a woman's prison and a LOT of women would be very upset by the fact that he's in there with them. A lot of them.

And where does this garbage stop? Chuckit said it best: "I have a terrible fear of being fat. Give me lipo or I'll kill myself."

See?

Which is why I discussed:
1. Whether you believe that there exists the true biological phenomenon of brain/body mismatches.
If it's mere preference, or aesthetics, then of course that needn't be supported by the state any more than a desire for new eyeglasses would.

2. It stops, presumably, where licensed medical experts can discern it to stop. I know people who think that people with diabetes and high blood pressure should just be healthier -- so should we refuse medical treatment to them?

Mithras · Aug 20, 2006, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

For the record, I have no quarrel with sex changes in general, but I do not feel that I should be paying for them. Prison is not supposed to be a good place to be — that would act as, say, a disincentive for killing your wife. Prison should not mean a free sex change operation.

By the same reasoning, do you think society should not bear the cost of dental care for prisoners? People don't, strictly speaking, need teeth -- we could just feed them mush.

Mithras · Aug 20, 2006, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I don't care if the guy doesn't like his gender.

THE PERSON HE ***KILLED*** DOES NOT CARE EITHER.
THIS GUY DESERVES NO RELIEF FROM ANY DISCOMFORT IN LIFE...HE KILLED SOMEONE.

Likewise, do you think we should refuse this guy dental care if he starts getting toothaches? Or treatment if he gets cancer? Maybe we should save ourselves the cost of exterminating roaches and rats in the prison -- it's not supposed to be a pleasant place to be, anyway.

Cody Dawg · Aug 20, 2006, 09:42 AM

Give me a flippin' break: Dental care is a LONG way from sex change operations, hormone replacement for life, etc.

I don't care what happens to him in prison.

People like him need the bare minimum to survive.

Mithras, do you CARE that someone DIED because of his actions? Do you?

Do you value life so little that it's okay to kill someone and think that the guilty person should then be given all kinds of perks in life that will make him or her comfortable for the rest of his or her life?

What about the DEAD person he killed? That person doesn't get any perks - including dental care - ever again!

to think that killers "deserve" anything more than the bare minimum to survive.

Mithras · Aug 20, 2006, 10:09 AM

Shall I quote Matthew again? I don't happen to believe Jesus was divine, but was a hell of a moral human being.

Cody Dawg · Aug 20, 2006, 10:12 AM

Sorry, you "don't believe in Jesus" (or obviously Christianity) but you want to quote God?

Go ahead, quote Matthew for us, will you? And maybe Mark, Luke, and John while you're at it.

As far as God being involved, Jesus/God didn't go around in the New Testament changing peoples' genders because they're screwed up in the head.

Giving this guy compassion in the form of allowing him to continue to breathe - and feed and clothe and give him minimal medical care - is all Jesus commanded us to do. He didn't say anything about rewarding unrepentant killers, I don't believe. This guy that wants the sex change operation could care less that he killled someone - he just wants a sex change on the taxpayer's house. It'll give him some attention, a little time in and out of prison, maybe some better hospital food, and escaping being with "the boys" in his cell block.

invisibleX · Aug 20, 2006, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Give me a flippin' break: Dental care is a LONG way from sex change operations, hormone replacement for life, etc.

I don't care what happens to him in prison.

People like him need the bare minimum to survive.

Mithras, do you CARE that someone DIED because of his actions? Do you?

Do you value life so little that it's okay to kill someone and think that the guilty person should then be given all kinds of perks in life that will make him or her comfortable for the rest of his or her life?

What about the DEAD person he killed? That person doesn't get any perks - including dental care - ever again!

to think that killers "deserve" anything more than the bare minimum to survive.

Dear lord I think I'm agreeing with cody. Prison, in its current form, is more a confinement than a punishment. So the question becomes: do you want prisoners to be well taken care of but out of society or do you want to punish them for their previous behavior.

thunderous_funker · Aug 20, 2006, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mithras

Which is why I discussed:
1. Whether you believe that there exists the true biological phenomenon of brain/body mismatches.
If it's mere preference, or aesthetics, then of course that needn't be supported by the state any more than a desire for new eyeglasses would.

2. It stops, presumably, where licensed medical experts can discern it to stop. I know people who think that people with diabetes and high blood pressure should just be healthier -- so should we refuse medical treatment to them?

Again, I don't think you can equate a life-threatening condition like diabetes with gender identity issues. If he never receives the surgery (like a majority of people who suffer from this condition because it is prohibitively expensive) he will remain perfectly healthy albeit emotionally distraught.

He'll receive counseling and lots of other care to alleviate his emotional pain, but I see absolutely no reason to provide him with elective surgery which is beyond the reach of most Americans free or imprisoned.

Cody Dawg · Aug 20, 2006, 01:15 PM

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

I know a couple of you disagree with me as a general rule, but we're in agreement about this particular issue.

Here's the thing: This guy ain't in prison for say, tax fraud. He flipping killed someone else, someone innocent, someone who should still be alive.

I think it's enough that taxpayers support him for the rest of his life. If his situation is like the norm, he's got free food, free dental, free medical, free cable television, access to educational programs, free counseling, and more. He can darn well "suffer" in his current gender.

He's not in a tiny concrete un-air conditioned cell in, say, China where all he would do is sit and look at the walls all day long. THAT is a "prison."

And a sex change op isn't just swapping out the parts down below, you know. It involves continous monitoring for the rest of a person's life. Hormones and pharmaceuticals. And, since he wants to be a woman, what he'll ask for next is a breast op, too. There's no end. And he sets a precedent and the next thing you know, every prisoner in the United States that wants a sex change op will be eligible for one also. It's a joke.

Chuckit · Aug 20, 2006, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mithras

By the same reasoning, do you think society should not bear the cost of dental care for prisoners? People don't, strictly speaking, need teeth -- we could just feed them mush.

Not dental care that isn't immediately necessary for their physical health. I don't care if it disturbs them, I don't favor tooth-whitening for prisoners.

Moderator · Aug 20, 2006, 02:38 PM

Obviously this is ridiculous....but over $1 Billion dollars per week in Iraq is waaaay worse. $8 trillion national debt, increasing by $1.8 Billion a day is waaaay worse. Lets adjust our priorities.

Cody Dawg · Aug 20, 2006, 02:43 PM

That's a different thread. Start it.

Moderator · Aug 20, 2006, 05:00 PM

You made the point that its a waste of taxpayer money. I'm saying if you want to see a waste of taxpayer money. Just look to at the G.O.P.