[Cody Dawg]

In another thread we're arguing about what is appropriate treatment for prisoners.

I don't think sex changes should be part of the "rehabilitation plan" for prisoners, for example.

And I found this ludicrous also:

ABOARD THAI AIRWAY TO LOS ANGELES (AP) - John Mark Karr, the suspect in the death of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey, sipped champagne and ate fried king prawns in business class Sunday after being put aboard a flight to Los Angeles to face charges in the United States.

As Karr wined and dined in style and chatted with the three U.S. officials escorting him, another bombshell emerged: Reports that Karr sought treatment at a Thai sex-change clinic.

Before takeoff, Karr took a glass of champagne from a flight attendant and clinked glasses with Spray, who sipped orange juice.

Dinner on board, served on a starched white tablecloth, was one many passengers would envy. Karr started with a pate, then had a green salad with walnut dressing. The main course was fried king prawn with steamed rice and broccoli. Karr drank a beer, crushing the can with his hands when it was empty, then moved on to a glass of French chardonnay with his main course.

The suspect was relaxed, smiling and chatting nonstop with the U.S. officials next to him - until the television news crews on the flight turned their cameras on. Then he stopped smiling, clutched the armrests of his seat and stared at his lap.

Link

I think that violent criminals should do hard labor, period. Up at dawn and out to work on the nation's highways and freeways chained together. Or other public works that need good hard labor. Picking up trash along the freeways. Clearing land. Cleaning graffitti. Etc.

First, it's cheap labor, second they are "giving back to society," and third it makes would-be criminals think twice about committing crimes when they see these blokes in prison uniforms working hard every day.

They get food, basic medical care, dental care, etc. And, yes, they get to PAY for privileges like cable television, computer time - using money that they earn WORKING - instead of getting everything for free.

White collar criminals can be utilized in various public programs including answering telephones, doing paperwork, billing, etc., for various companies. Outsourcing prison labor. Prisoners are paid hourly and the prison also receives a fee for providing excellent workers.

We all have to work to pay our ways in life, so why should it be any different for prisoners?

Any other suggestions?

Prison reform is in order in this country.

[greenG4]

Prison should be punishment. I am all for forced manual labor. Of course then you get into having to pay them, which I don't think we should do either. One thing I think we should do for them is education, I don't mind that--after they fix all the potholes on the highway.

[Cody Dawg]

I don't mind paying them.

We could pay them, like, .50 an hour or something like that.

Right now we're paying quite a lot more because the work still needs to be done and local and federal government has to hire people at at least minimum wage - and usually a lot more.

They can either work and get paid or they can sit in silence in a concrete cell all alone all day long with nothing but a Bible to read (or Koran, etc.)

[BRussell]

Karr is innocent until proven guilty (and my guess is that he didn't kill Jonbenet).

[Cody Dawg]

And why should he be flying business class back here to the States? What makes him better than anyone else? He should be flying as inexpensively as possible on taxpayers' money, not dining on foie gras and French champagne and wines. Coach class is good enough.

What a crock.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Karr is innocent until proven guilty (and my guess is that he didn't kill Jonbenet).

Yeah, I'll be really interested to hear how they suddenly found out who the killer is after all these years.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

And why should he be flying business class back here to the States? What makes him better than anyone else? He should be flying as inexpensively as possible on taxpayers' money, not dining on foie gras and French champagne and wines. Coach class is good enough.

What a crock.

I don't know, maybe the agents escorting him wanted first class, and they had to sit with him. But it has nothing to do with prison.

Another point: These kinds of things seem to me to be manufactured distractions from real outrages. A prisoner wants a sex change! A suspect drank champagne! Both in terms of tax payer money and just general moral outrage, there are plenty of issues that truly put these to shame.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Yeah, I'll be really interested to hear how they suddenly found out who the killer is after all these years.

It sounds to me like he just wanted the attention, but maybe they have other evidence that we don't know about.

Actually, one possibility is that the authorities decided to treat him like a big celebrity (e.g., 1st class on the plane) because they thought it would make him more pliable during interrogation?

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by BRussell

It sounds to me like he just wanted the attention, but maybe they have other evidence that we don't know about.

Actually, one possibility is that the authorities decided to treat him like a big celebrity (e.g., 1st class on the plane) because they thought it would make him more pliable during interrogation?

Who knows? They might have had a valid reason for first-class. Maybe for security purposes?Regardless, most prisoners are not transported that way.

[Cody Dawg]

Why does he need interrogation? He supposedly confessed.

He deserves the cold chicken salad plate and coach class if you ask me - like other would-be prisoners - not champagne and high-fives all around.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Why does he need interrogation? He supposedly confessed.

[Cody Dawg]

Seriously, the guy has been talking, and talking, and talking.

And I don't think he did it anyway.

So, back at you.

The thread is about prison reform, not whether or not he needs interrogation.

[greenamp]

Hell, the Egyptians used prisonor slave labor to build their pyrimids, why shouldn't we?

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Why does he need interrogation? He supposedly confessed.

The legal process doesn't just stop when someone confesses. They still have to make a case.

[Dakar]

$5 says the guys who arrested him didn't want to fly coach for the long flight, so obviously, he's going to be up there with them.

But its not like they couldn't deny him the accouterments.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by greenamp

Hell, the Egyptians used prisonor slave labor to build their pyrimids, why shouldn't we?

We don't need pyramids, do we?

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

We don't need pyramids, do we?

We already have the Luxor.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Dakar

But its not like they couldn't deny him the accouterments.

Is that really a confirmed fact that he had champagne? Or was this just some journalist drawing conclusions from the fact that he flew business-class? I find the latter more likely than an arrested suspect getting served alcohol on a transfer.

[invisibleX]

Labor, yes. Allow them to apply for other works if they have the skills, assuming their behavior is top notch. No tv access, restricted radio access, more education/rehabilitation for lesser crimes.

Basically offer any rehabilitation to those who show they WANT to reenter society and more importantly PROVE that they mean it.

I think it would be great to punish prisoners based on their crime beyond confining them. However I don't think there is any way to do this is a meaningful way that actually does anything.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I think that violent criminals should do hard labor, period. Up at dawn and out to work on the nation's highways and freeways chained together. Or other public works that need good hard labor. Picking up trash along the freeways. Clearing land. Cleaning graffitti. Etc.

First, it's cheap labor, second they are "giving back to society," and third it makes would-be criminals think twice about committing crimes when they see these blokes in prison uniforms working hard every day.

They get food, basic medical care, dental care, etc. And, yes, they get to PAY for privileges like cable television, computer time - using money that they earn WORKING - instead of getting everything for free.

White collar criminals can be utilized in various public programs including answering telephones, doing paperwork, billing, etc., for various companies. Outsourcing prison labor. Prisoners are paid hourly and the prison also receives a fee for providing excellent workers.

We all have to work to pay our ways in life, so why should it be any different for prisoners?

Any other suggestions?

Prison reform is in order in this country.

I think prisons in many states already employ the tactics you suggested here. I've seen prisoners pick up trash, fix roadways etc. Many call centers are actually staffed by prisoners so make sure you don't give your address to the rep when you have a problem with a new gadget.

I think giving the prisoner the opportunity to better themselves without making them too comfortable is good policy. Prison reform is definately in order as many of the guards are extremely corrupt. How do you think the prisoners get all the drugs and contraband?

As for Karr sitting in first class and reportedly sipping champagne(if its true) I have to agree that's angering. I have a feeling someone might lose their job over that.

[besson3c]

I think we should just kill people given life in prison, and reform the legal system or whatever it would take to circumvent the high costs of killing of these people given these sentences. Otherwise, what Cody Dawg suggested is fine with me.

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I think we should just kill people given life in prison, and reform the legal system or whatever it would take to circumvent the high costs of killing of these people given these sentences. Otherwise, what Cody Dawg suggested is fine with me.

Hell just froze over.

[Cody Dawg]

besson3c

I think we should just kill people given life in prison, and reform the legal system or whatever it would take to circumvent the high costs of killing of these people given these sentences. Otherwise, what Cody Dawg suggested is fine with me.

Hey, is someone hacking your account? Like Spliffdaddy?



(Weird, I dreamt that you emailed me today, besson3c - hope all is okay!)

Anyway, are you being facetious or did you really mean that? Frankly, I'm shocked that you said that...as is the rest of the besson3c groupie clan!

[Cody Dawg]

BRussell is onto something:

eason for allowing JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect John Mark Karr to live it up on the 15-hour flight to the United States, legal experts say — they wanted him to talk.

Denver attorney Larry Pozner, past president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, said the royal treatment during Sunday's journey — king prawns, champagne, French wine — was "a brilliant move."

"What the cops want most is this guy to talk. They say he is not under arrest. Then they do not put him in handcuffs on the plane. And they say he is over the age of 21, free to drink," Pozner said. "He is therefore free to talk."

If Karr says something incriminating that is challenged in court, Pozner said, the investigator who was sitting next to him simply says he was never in my custody.

"There is always a reason when the unusual happens," Pozner said. "He is in nobody's custody. He is free to leave if he can find a way at 38,000 feet

Karr left Bangkok on a Thai Airways International flight at about 9 a.m. EDT for the long flight to Los Angeles. The 41-year-old teacher sat in a business class window seat next to Mark Spray, an investigator with the Boulder County District Attorney's office.

Before takeoff, he sipped champagne. During dinner, Karr had pate, salad with walnut dressing and fried king prawn with steamed rice and broccoli. Karr had a beer before a glass of French chardonnay with the main course.

A spokeswoman for Boulder prosecutors, Carolyn French, said Karr is being escorted by immigration and customs officials but isn't in federal or Boulder County custody on the flight.

"He's being deported from Thailand because his passport was pulled," French said.

Scott Robinson, a Denver defense attorney who has followed the case, said Karr can enjoy himself on the plane.

"Maybe the whole purpose is to build rapport," he said. "If the click of a glass helps in the search for truth maybe he should click glasses six more times."

Craig Silverman, a former Denver prosecutor familiar with the case, said was surprised that authorities would allow Karr to sit on the plane sipping champagne and drinking beer.

"It could be that if he got a little inebriated he would make further statements that could include or exclude him from this case," Silverman said.

And maybe not - some disagree with letting this guy drink champagne:

Bob Grant, a former Adams County district attorney who was involved in the Ramsey investigation, disagreed.

"It seems odd to me," he said. "It is very strange. Whoever is in control of him ought to make sure he isn't doing things like drinking champagne."

Link

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

BRussell is onto something:



And maybe not - some disagree with letting this guy drink champagne:

Makes sense to me. If they have reason to suspect he's lying and will happily go to prison for a murder he did not commit why not.

[Cody Dawg]

This morning I'm reading that the (experts) are all split on this.

Some are saying that if he talked too much after drinking that it's non-admissible information in court.

Others are saying it was great to get him talking.

Who knows.

All I know is that he should be eating bologna sandwiches and Kool-aid from now on.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

This morning I'm reading that the (experts) are all split on this.

Some are saying that if he talked too much after drinking that it's non-admissible information in court.

Others are saying it was great to get him talking.

Who knows.

All I know is that he should be eating bologna sandwiches and Kool-aid from now on.

Well he was in business class, you pay twice as much for the ticket he might as well get his money's worth (err I mean the US gov's $$ worth ). I for one hope he stuffed himself stupid with smoked salmon. All part of the media circus.

[Cody Dawg]

Smoked salmon...

Sigh...

Sounds delicious right about now.



I'm too lazy to go buy some and too cheap to have my husband buy some...

I'll have to stick to tuna. At least it's solid white albacore.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Smoked salmon...

Sigh...

Sounds delicious right about now.



I'm too lazy to go buy some and too cheap to have my husband buy some...

I'll have to stick to tuna. At least it's solid white albacore.

Aren't you pregnant? If so, it is recommended to limit high-mercury fish like tuna.

[Rumor]

Prison doesn't work. We need something more extreme like castration of rapists and child molestors, cutting the hand off a thief etc. However, until our justice system improves and it can be detirmined without a doubt that the offender is guilty, we cannot procede with extreme forms of punishment.

[Chuckit]

Yeah. The problem with mandating the death penalty or any other irreversible punishment is that it demands more than we can actually give to make it work. We then have two choices:

1) Err on the side of guilt and probably kill a lot of innocent people (this is a terrible idea)

2) Err on the side of innocence and probably let the worst criminals go free (this is a terrible idea)

The degree of certainty required to impose the death sentence safely cannot be reached in most cases. Many people convicted of crimes have been acquitted afterward. If we assured a speedy death for these people, we would have made a big ****-up.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

The degree of certainty required to impose the death sentence safely cannot be reached in most cases.

Always thought there may be value in generating a new metric "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that prosecutors could choose to try a case under if they wanted to put someone to death.

[Cody Dawg]

Thanks for the head's up, BRussell.



Yes, I remember that whole tuna thingy.

I had salad instead and a glass of lemon water.

[rambo47]

Devil's Island.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

(snip) All I know is that he should be eating bologna sandwiches and Kool-aid from now on.

Whoa. Did you spend some time in Nashville's maximum security/overflow facility in Sumner county, too?

Bologna sandwiches are served on Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday. With peanut butter being the default lunch/dinner on other days.

Indeed, Kool-Aid is the primary drink. Served from a community drywall joint compound bucket. There is no sugar in the Kool-Aid, because the law only requires a source of Vitamin C....they don't say it has to taste good. Also, if you lose (or never recieved) your plastic cup - you don't get any Kool-Aid. You must, instead, drink from the shower head.


Folks, there's nothing you can do to make incarceration any less comfortable than it already is.

[bowwowman]

Have a father who worked in the Federal prison system for 30 years, I can tell you that the problem with prisons is the same as with the government in general: NOTHING will ever change until the system changes! The system sux, is corrupt from the top to the bottom, and is so intertwined in beauracacy that it should be publicly declared as a "clusterf*ck"

1. There should be no distinction of "white-collar" or "blue-collar" crime. Crime is crime, if you are convicted of breaking the law, you go to jail, period!, do not pass go, and do not collect ANY money. And get rid of the friggin country clubs: If you do an Enron, you go to the exact same prison as the guy who burned down your house or stole my car, even though your sentence might be a bit shorter....

3. Change the rules: Every one gets the same punishment for the same crime. No appeals, no minimum/maximum sentences, no "mitigating circumstances" or plea bargining.

4. ALL captial punishments should be completed on the same day as the sentence is handed down, and done in public, so everyone knows the consequences up close & personal, especially children:

Murder = you fry, just like the guy last week
Rape = public castration, just like the guy last week

5. Stop the coddling & babysitting. People in prison should be treated like criminals, not guests of the state. Feed them basic necessity foods (vegetables & grains) & water, work them 16 hours a day making little rocks out of big ones, and get rid of ALL Olympic sized gyms, tennis courts, swimming pools, libraries, TV's, computers, radios, smoking, mail, visitation, etc. Prison should be a form of punishment, a dark, dreary, dreadful place, a permanent reminder of the fact that a person broke the law, and was punished accordingly.

Fewer prisoners = fewer prisons = fewer correctional officers & wardens = more people devoting themselves to productive lives instead of crime = more stable and progressive societies. Just think how many BILLIONS of dollars we could save every day, and devote that money to education, technology, medicine, and other public services.......

[Dino-Rider]

Castred rapists can still be threats. I say just kill them.

As for murder, it depends. Sometimes murder is justified.

[bowwowman]

Originally Posted by Dino-Rider

Castred rapists can still be threats. I say just kill them.

As for murder, it depends. Sometimes murder is justified.

The only murder I think is justified is in self-defense, where it's either you or them ! But then I call that self defense, not murder, and our laws should be changed to reflect that. Murder, by definition, is wantingly killing another human being, and can NOT be justified, regardless of the reason.....

And as for rapists, like most things in life, not having the proper tools for the job will usually result in failure, or at least consideration of a different course of action ............

[Rumor]

If someone killed my mother, and I in turn kill them, is that not justified?

[legacyb4]

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

And why should he be flying business class back here to the States? What makes him better than anyone else? He should be flying as inexpensively as possible on taxpayers' money, not dining on foie gras and French champagne and wines. Coach class is good enough.

What a crock.

[bowwowman]

Originally Posted by Rumor

If someone killed my mother, and I in turn kill them, is that not justified?

NOT.......revenge would not bring your mother back, and would only serve to reduce you down to the killer's level, that of a low life scumbag with no regard for human life....... and it's not up to you to singlehandedly decide that another person deserves to die, thats what the courts and the justice system are for

If you kill the scumbag, YOU would be the one who goes to prison or gets fried, not them............

[skalie]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Whoa. Did you spend some time in Nashville's maximum security/overflow facility in Sumner county, too?

Did you ever get to see Johnny Cash?

[Dino-Rider]

Originally Posted by bowwowman

NOT.......revenge would not bring your mother back, and would only serve to reduce you down to the killer's level, that of a low life scumbag with no regard for human life....... and it's not up to you to singlehandedly decide that another person deserves to die, thats what the courts and the justice system are for

If you kill the scumbag, YOU would be the one who goes to prison or gets fried, not them............

Wrong. There's a huge difference between 'no regard for human life' vs 'no regard for psychos who don't regard anyone else's lives as important'.

Would I kill a random person? No.

Would I kill a rapist, child molester, or murderer? Gladly, with a smile on my face.

[bowwowman]

Originally Posted by Dino-Rider

Would I kill a rapist, child molester, or murderer? Gladly, with a smile on my face.

Then that makes you no better than them. And me thinks your smile would go away immediately after you hear that prison cell door slam shut behind you, or as you watch that last restraint being tightened to strap you into that electric chair...