[Doofy]

London's top policeman, Sir Ian Blair, says that residents in Haringey, north London, are now happy to leave their front doors open and unlocked.

Here's the reaction from some Londoners...

Is this guy living in a dream world? London has never been more dangerous; last year I witnessed a guy attacked with a hammer almost outside my house. I phoned 999 and got put in a call queue.

I've just returned from holiday to discover that thieves have kicked-in my back gate (double locked and 10 feet high) and then stripped two cycles of all their parts because the frames themselves were chained to the floor. So would I feel safe leaving my front door open? Not in the real world no. The police response was 'here is a crime number - but nothing else will happen.'

A few weeks ago in Haringey where I live a man was trying to kick my neighbour's front door down whilst holding a large kitchen knife. More recently my car was broken into outside my home. If Ian Blair has visited Haringey to for his conclusions, he surely had his eyes shut.

Unbelievable. I can't even leave the car outside (with the doors locked) with-out being broken into!!!

I live in North London.

My front door is steel set in a steel frame and is secured at five points around the door.

My windows have security grilles.

I have a monitored alarm and CCTV.

My house has been burgled seven times in ten years, my car has been stolen twice, I have been mugged.

I looked out of the window on Saturday night and saw five men kicking a man half to death in the street outside the house. The police did not even attend and I had to take him to the A&E department myself.

Ah! The joys of Haringey! Where Crouchenders phone up the numbers on lost cat posters and scream abuse to heartbroken owners? The shooting of two people on Weston Park in a restaurant? The two attempted buglaries? The assault I experienced for no reason?

Or Seven Sisters possibly? On Xmas eve where my neighbours are held up at gun point outside their house in the afternoon? The bullet through my back window? The crack dealer in my garden being chased by armed police? The half naked screaming girl being chased by two men with knives at 5am on Easter Monday morning? The two muggings I experienced? The girl stabbed in the head for her mobile?

Of course it's safe!

In the part of London that I live in not even the police station leaves its door unlocked - an entry phone and CCTV system are in place so that the police officers can see who is there and can decide whether it's safe to let you in!

At home I have deadlocks on the doors, locks on the windows, and a burglar alarm. I've been burgled twice in the last 12 months.

Having lived in the worlds murder capital, Washington DC, I would say I felt more safe there than I do in London.

You have GOT to be kidding. I have lived in London for 8 yrs and have never felt as unsafe as I do now. 2 attempted murders in my street. Woken up by 4 guys trying to get in at 2am through my back door. 2 mugging attempts and a body of a girl found raped and murdered in a lane near our house (in Greenwich by the way). I am moving away because of this - and what about the gun crime?

Just in case you were thinking that you had it rough where you are.

[Chuckit]

Is it that way where you live, Doofy?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Is it that way where you live, Doofy?

In the closest city it's getting quite bad, from what I hear. I'm about ten miles out, tucked away in an obscure location. There's been a few burglaries in the village but I don't think the crims would dare come up as far as my house (about a half mile up a private lane). It's sort of "shoot you with the shotgun*, bury you in the garden and nobody will know about it" territory, so they don't bother - it ain't worth the risk for them.

* While I don't own a shotgun, all my neighbours do.

[Peder Rice]

It's a stinking world cause there's no law and order any more.
It's a stinking world because it lets the young get on to the old like you've done.
Oh, it's no world for an old man any longer.
What kind of a world is it at all? Men on the moon and men spinning around the earth
and there's not no attention paid to earthly law and order no more.
Oh dear dear land I fought for thee

[Naplander]

London is a pretty rough city to live in. There are very few areas within zones 1 - 3 that are actually safe in my experience.

I live in North East London and are forever seeing signs by the roadside from the police appealing for witnesses for shootings, assault, stabbings, muggings etc

Thankfully the area I am in is a ultra-orthodox Jewish area, so it's actually very very safe, unlike just a few streets away..

[moodymonster]

Ian Blair is the guy who was on the radio on July 7 2005 boasting about what a good job he was doing fighting terrorism - then London was attacked. He's the same guy who lied about the events of the 21/7, and then went on TV and, for want of a better word, criticised the officers involved in the shooting for the number of shots. He said that when something like that happens the officer just keeps pumping the trigger - ergo the officer panicked?

As I understand it, Met police are armed with Glock 17 - 17 bullets in the magazine - the guy was shot 11 times, therefore the officer doing the shooting didn't pump the trigger continously. Unless the gun was underloaded (they do underload at the airports - some carry G36s with semi transparent magazines, so it's blatant).

I've never liked Ian Blair - his predecessor John Stevens seemed like a good guy, but Ian Blair... he can **** off.

[Sky Captain]

Shootings and stabbings in London?
But handguns and knives are banned.
If these items are banned, how can these violent crimes occour?

A Glock 17 is a 16+1 9mm. Or and 18+1 9mm capacity handgun.
Depending on the magazine used.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Shootings and stabbings in London?
But handguns and knives are banned.
If these items are banned, how can these violent crimes occour?

Could you be any more predictable?

[Kevin]

Hammers need a good banning now Sky Captain.

Originally Posted by Lew

Could you be any more predictable?

Well he makes a good point Lew.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Lew

Could you be any more predictable?

Check out our news today.
2 different escapees. One kills 2 people. One shoots a deputy.

[Naplander]

To carry a gun or a knife is illegal in England.

This, however, doesn't stop people.

[moodymonster]

yeah, damn those criminals - don't they know carrying a weapon is illegal.

If caught they'll be told not to do it again, ad infinitum.

[Monique]

I think that chief of police needs to leave his door opened for a while and see what happened.

Some people might say that the stories told by Doofy are anecdotes but they are not when it happens to you.

Every big or medium size has problems with violence. I do not know if it is in the nature of some men to do harm but some do not mind hurting others.

Of course, it is criminal to carry a weapon but this is not going to stop people from doing it at anytime. If they wish to choose evil over goodness, they will find weapons.

[Sky Captain]

Exactly.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Doofy

London's top policeman, Sir Ian Blair, says that residents in Haringey, north London, are now happy to leave their front doors open and unlocked.

Here's the reaction from some Londoners...

So Blair is not the only public servant in the UK who is completely out of touch with the public he's supposed to serve.

When exactly did 'New' Labour and Blair go insane? The appeared just like your garden variety liberal-socialconservatives the first few years. Pretty innocent, if annoying. Then the mask began to slip and I was longing for a Thatcher-run UK.



V

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by voodoo

So Blair is not the only public servant in the UK who is completely out of touch with the public he's supposed to serve.

There's a couple of good ones (the police chief of Nottingham springs to mind), but most of 'em are idiots.

Originally Posted by voodoo

When exactly did 'New' Labour and Blair go insane?

1906 and 1953, as best I can make out.

With relation to the current crime crisis, it's almost certainly due to the Human Rights Act 1998 and how that's been applied unevenly to give crims rights and lessen the rights of vics.

Originally Posted by voodoo

The appeared just like your garden variety liberal-socialconservatives the first few years. Pretty innocent, if annoying. Then the mask began to slip and I was longing for a Thatcher-run UK.

There ya go, you said it yourself... ..."the mask".
It's all smoke and mirrors with this lot. Always has been.

[moodymonster]

Originally Posted by Doofy

It's all smoke and mirrors with this lot. Always has been.

very, very true

[Nazette]

Can anyone out there help me out and tell me what the phone number (999) 000-0000 is used for. So far all I can find is that it is used as Safe Talk particularily for Escort services and Chat lines.
I really need an answer, can some one help me?

[Rumor]

The UK needs to pass a bill to not allow Blairs into public office.

[Spliffdaddy]

Here in Kentucky we don't need laws to stop criminals. Probably 95% of all households have guns. If somebody breaks in, you can just shoot them. If you don't feel like shooting them, just call the local constable and he'll shoot the guy for you.

Every now and then we have dead criminals that get shot several times after they've already been killed. Neighbors will show up after hearning gunshots just to shoot the criminal for fun.

You can't possibly assemble a jury of 12 people that would convict a person of killing a criminal. Chances are good that at least 10 of the jurors shot the guy, too.

Seems to work.

The conviction rate for burglars is kinda low. Seeing as how it's impossible to indict dead people.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Every now and then we have dead criminals that get shot several times after they've already been killed. Neighbors will show up after hearning gunshots just to shoot the criminal for fun.

You can't possibly assemble a jury of 12 people that would convict a person of killing a criminal. Chances are good that at least 10 of the jurors shot the guy, too.

[Spliffdaddy]

I'm almost not kidding.

Twice in the last 2 months I drove out to the house I'm remodeling...after 10pm. Both times a neighbor showed up carrying his shotgun. He doesn't see very well. Fortunately, his dog recognized me both times - so I'm alive to tell the tale.

[ghporter]

I once met arms designer Bill Alexander in Houston. Bill is a Brit, by the way, but he lives over here because he can't do his job where he grew up. He said to me "you can't make a spoon over there-you could have someone's eye out with that!" And he was serious. Maybe being an arms maker (successful, produces arms that BOTH the UK and US military use currently, as well as enthusiast's pieces) may be an extreme occupation, but the MOD doesn't want innovation, so they don't cotton to innovators. And if Bill can't make a living in the UK, he certainly can here.

As for the bloke who reported the idiot pounding on his neighbor's door with a knife in his hand, I'd say "go at the jerk with a nice long walking stick." Except tomorrow Parliament would ban walking sticks because they're weapons.

Now if they bothered to notice that here in the U.S. a number of states have legalized the concealed carry of handguns-UNDER EXTREMELY CONTROLLED CONDITIONS, BY CAREFULLY SCREENED INDIVIDUALS WHO MUST PASS SOME SERIOUS ACADEMIC TRAINING CLASSES FIRST-and their crime rates have FALLEN significantly, they might start to understand. Disarming the public does NOT disarm the criminals. To misquote Bill Clinton, "It's the criminals, stupid!" Throw them under the jail (make Wormwood like it was in the bad old days...) and never let them out, have zero tolerance for ANY crime (not an act of self defense-I read the news from over there) where a weapon is involved, and allow TRAINED, SCREENED, LICENSED individuals to carry for a while and then watch the crime rate plummet. Hey, they license TVs and radios, and look at the mayhem THEY cause!

(Gotta watch that crazy Texan...)

[moodymonster]

the crime rate would plumet if the people the police caught were sentenced under existing laws, and served those sentences. Currently they get really short sentences, or it's termed they've already served, or released to ease prison overcrowding.

In my experience the police tend to be very good at getting the people involved, but then are limited to telling them not to do it again. Which is frustrating for the police as well.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Monique

I do not know if it is in the nature of some men to do harm but some do not mind hurting others.

It's not just men doing this sugar tits.

[bowwowman]

I do not know if it is in the nature of some men to do harm but some do not mind hurting others.

It is our destiny to destroy each other
And you can NOT change destiny
regardless of how badly you want to.....

The time is coming,
and so it will be.....
see yas in the new place!

[TETENAL]

British Crime Survey offences, England & Wales

[nath]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

British Crime Survey offences, England & Wales

Indeed. Happy and safe eastender here, with no personal experience of crime - either myself or local family/friends - in 7 years.

Wouldn't leave my door open anywhere - generally the UK climate isn't really suitable for that.

However before giving up smoking I was dopey enough to leave my keys in the door two or three times overnight. Silly me. But nothing happened.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

British Crime Survey offences, England & Wales

I suppose it is somewhat amusing how, in the US, people are always going on about how the crime situation is continually getting better, but the media makes it look as though it's getting worse in order to sell more papers. Then those same people turn around and trust the media to provide an accurate view of what's going on in the UK in terms of crime rates.

I may really dislike the politics in the UK right now, and I may think they're making a lot of bad decisions, but I'm not ready to trust the newspapers and especially not anecdotal evidence from a very self-selected and restricted pool of people to tell me the whole story.

[moodymonster]

there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

the media really do hype it up though - I've seen snippets of US TV here and there, it really does present news as entertainment. And the UK media as well, but not to the same extent.

[davesimondotcom]

I'd be impressed if the article had the Chief's address and said he left his door unlocked...

[nath]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

I'd be impressed if the article had the Chief's address and said he left his door unlocked...

I'd be amazed if he lives in Haringey!

[moodymonster]

think he lives in Oxfordshire

[nath]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

think he lives in Oxfordshire

Of course he does.

Say what you like about Livingstone, at least he sits in the shite and gets the tube with the rest of us.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

British Crime Survey offences, England & Wales

From basically the same the people who'd like you to believe that inflation is running at under 5% (when utility bills are increasing by at least 20% per year).

[nath]

Originally Posted by Doofy

From basically the same the people who'd like you to believe that inflation is running at under 5% (when utility bills are increasing by at least 20% per year).

Inflation usually refers to the RPI, which IIRC doesn't include utilities.

[christ]

Official inflation figures normally exclude anything that goes up in price - hence weasel words like "underlying inflation".

[Kerrigan]

[taboo]

The UK is very pleasant in areas where there are few immigrants, like the midlands or most of Scotland. But in areas with high Middle Eastern/East European immigrant populations, it's a dump.

[/taboo]

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by nath

Inflation usually refers to the RPI, which IIRC doesn't include utilities.

We know that. They specifically source the RPI (and change its source at will) so that they don't have to show what an f up of things they're making. As far as I'm concerned, inflation should include all day-to-day living expenses.

But it illustrates my point perfectly... ...that the government will source figures from the most beneficial data. What makes you think they didn't do that with the crime figures?

Dude, you appear to be one of only about 100 people in the country who's still defending the Labour Party. You're not actually Prezzer, are you?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

[taboo]

The UK is very pleasant in areas where there are few immigrants, like the midlands or most of Scotland. But in areas with high Middle Eastern/East European immigrant populations, it's a dump.

[/taboo]

Guess who hasn't been to the Midlands lately.

[moodymonster]

chavs are white English

[nath]

Originally Posted by Doofy

We know that. They specifically source the RPI (and change its source at will) so that they don't have to show what an f up of things they're making. As far as I'm concerned, inflation should include all day-to-day living expenses.

So you're saying that this government removed utilities from the RPI shopping basket? That's a pretty big claim, do you have a source?

Originally Posted by Doofy

you appear to be one of only about 100 people in the country who's still defending the Labour Party.

I'm just a Londoner whose experience of living here doesn't reflect the content of your post. I don't vote for or defend the Labour party.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by nath

So you're saying that this government removed utilities from the RPI shopping basket? That's a pretty big claim, do you have a source?

I didn't say that. Are you trying to actually prove the other current UK thread to be true or what?

Originally Posted by nath

I'm just a Londoner whose experience of living here doesn't reflect the content of your post. I don't vote for or defend the Labour party.

And all the quotes I posted are from Londoners.

[nath]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I didn't say that.

Well, you said that

Originally Posted by Doofy

They specifically source the RPI (and change its source at will)

That might be taken to indicate that you think they have changed the source of the RPI, to omit figures such as increased utility costs, that will make the overall numbers less favourable. If that's not what you meant then fine.

Originally Posted by Doofy

And all the quotes I posted are from Londoners.

And their anecdotes are no more or less valuable than mine. If you have meaningful statistics, let's have them, whatever the source. If the stats are as worthless as you say then you should have no difficulty finding data that supports your premise.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by nath

Well, you said that



That might be taken to indicate that you think they have changed the source of the RPI, to omit figures such as increased utility costs, that will make the overall numbers less favourable. If that's not what you meant then fine.

Did I say this government does that, or that government in general does that? You rush so quick into your defend Labour/attack Tories mode that you don't actually read what's been written.

[Spliffdaddy]

British crime statistics are a bit strange, from what I understand. If a criminal breaks into 7 homes - it's counted as one crime.

[nath]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Did I say this government does that, or that government in general does that?

No, you didn't, at least not in a form of words that would tie you into anything concrete.

Nice going.

I guess I thought you implied it. If that was wrong, then I'm quite happy to withdraw it, as that means acceptance of Tetenal's data, which I agree with.

If you do have any real evidence-based reason to doubt the fall in crime since 1997, then I'd love to hear about it. Of course maybe you just mean the figures can't be right because 'teh lefty guvmint is bad, hmm-kay'. That's fine too, and much more in line with your usual level of debate.

BTW, who's the girl with the bad hair in your sig? Love the Meatrix site (and am investigating), but she doesn't seem to be from there?

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

British crime statistics are a bit strange, from what I understand. If a criminal breaks into 7 homes - it's counted as one crime.

That's interesting, where did you hear that?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by nath

I guess I thought you implied it. If that was wrong, then I'm quite happy to withdraw it, as that means acceptance of Tetenal's data, which I agree with.

No, it doesn't. It means that I don't accept the data, but I don't assume that it's only this government who've been cooking the books.

Originally Posted by nath

If you do have any real evidence-based reason to doubt the fall in crime since 1997

Not that I can show you. I'm from a police family though, if that counts for anything.

Originally Posted by nath

BTW, who's the girl with the bad hair in your sig? Love the Meatrix site (and am investigating), but she doesn't seem to be from there?

That's 'coz she's from here, not there.

[Spliffdaddy]

There's quite a lot of information about Britain's strange method of tracking crime. Just do a google search.

Here's part of an article from newsmax. Several years old, though...so maybe some improvements in accuracy have been made since then.


Not surprisingly to many observers, the violent crime rate has risen dramatically and steadily since gun bans have been instituted. That's a trend seen wherever strict gun control laws have been implemented. And that's the part of the story British officials have tried to keep under wraps.

A headline in the London Daily Telegraph back on April 1, 1996, said it all: "Crime Figures a Sham, Say Police." The story noted that "pressure to convince the public that police were winning the fight against crime had resulted in a long list of ruses to 'massage' statistics," and "the recorded crime level bore no resemblance to the actual amount of crime being committed."

For example, where a series of homes were burgled, they were regularly recorded as one crime. If a burglar hit 15 or 20 flats, only one crime was added to the statistics.

More recently, a 2000 report from the Inspectorate of Constabulary charges Britain's 43 police departments with systemic under-classification of crime – for example, by recording burglary as "vandalism." The report lays much of the blame on the police's desire to avoid the extra paperwork associated with more serious crimes.

Britain's justice officials have also kept crime totals down by being careful about what to count.

"American homicide rates are based on initial data, but British homicide rates are based on the final disposition." Suppose that three men kill a woman during an argument outside a bar. They are arrested for murder, but because of problems with identification (the main witness is dead), charges are eventually dropped. In American crime statistics, the event counts as a three-person homicide, but in British statistics it counts as nothing at all. "With such differences in reporting criteria, comparisons of U.S. homicide rates with British homicide rates is a sham," the report concludes.

Another "common practice," according to one retired Scotland Yard senior officer, is "falsifying clear-up rates by gaining false confessions from criminals already in prison." (Britain has far fewer protections against abusive police interrogations than does the United States.) As a result, thousands of crimes in Great Britain have been "solved" by bribing or coercing prisoners to confess to crimes they never committed.

Explaining away the disparity between crime reported by victims and the official figures became so difficult that, in April 1998, the British Home Office was forced to change its method of reporting crime, and a somewhat more accurate picture began to emerge. In January 2000, official street-crime rates in London were more than double the official rate from the year before.

[moodymonster]

I think the overall term for it is 'doublespeak'.