[besson3c]

I'm damn sick of this issue.

Yes, the terrorist cells are a growing threat, yes we have to do something about them. I'm just getting really ****ing tired of all of the hubris and tough talk while simultaneously wrapping one's self in the American flag.

The answer is not to throw as much testostrone into the mix as possible or put an overly excessive amount of resources into the problem. The answer is to up the ante and do more to compensate for this growing threat, and do it in a way that is intelligent and a wise compromise. This kind of crap really shouldn't be a part of the news as much as it is, I'd very much prefer for the government to just do it swiftly and quietly without all of the political grandstanding.

I'm really ****ing sick of Americans being accused of being terrorist supporters because they have a different opinion on where lines should be drawn. I'm really ****ing of politicians talking about how important this issue is while simultaneously neglecting certain security-related issues while trying to conceal this with empty rhetoric. I'm tired of the stupid people shitting their pants every time the terror alert is raised and going ape **** worrying about everybody and everything. I'm tired of there being a terror alert, and the people being manipulated when I just know that politicians are using this as leverage to satisfy their best interests. I'm sick of all of the discourse in this country being focused around this problem, when there are many others worthy of our attention. I'm tired of questions about whether we are overcompensating backfiring when staunch Neo-cons are involved in these discussions. I'm tired of the kind of lectures people like mojo2 gave telling me why I should join the club and obsess over this issue. I'm tired of the Neo-cons. I'm tired of the Liberals taking relentless pot-shots. I'm tired of people who talk about this problem as if it can be solved, or as if it is brand new. I'm tired of people that string together an argument and speak soley based on their gut feelings. I'm tired of knee-jerk reactions. I'm tired of partisanship. I'm tired of empty rhetoric.

I'm just ****ing tired of all of this crap.


Am I alone?

[Sky Captain]

It's time to just curl up and accept the crescent of islam.
Time to just submit.
It's the only way.
Total appeasement.

[Dakar]

I think you're tired of terrorism being politicized.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

It's time to just curl up and accept the crescent of islam.
Time to just submit.
It's the only way.
Total appeasement.

Stop being dramatic. I'm really starting to think that the policians have done a huge disservice in insisting (usually implicitly) that there is a war going on between all of Islam and the West, and that this has been given so much attention because people are sheep and buy into this.

There are some Islamic groups that want to reform the world in their ideological vision. Okay, so what else is new? Why are we so self-conscious and insecure?

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c

There are some Islamic groups that want to reform the world in their ideological vision. Okay, so what else is new? Why are we so self-conscious and insecure?

9/11, maybe?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar

I think you're tired of terrorism being politicized.

Yes, and people buying into these strategies and thereby supporting these politicians.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by besson3c

The answer is to up the ante and do more to compensate for this growing threat, and do it in a way that is intelligent and a wise compromise. This kind of crap really shouldn't be a part of the news as much as it is, I'd very much prefer for the government to just do it swiftly and quietly without all of the political grandstanding.

I don't think this is the answer. As I've discussed before, compromising with terrorists only enforces one thing: that their terrorist acts were a valid mechanism for getting their issues aired (on a national or international scene), and that these acts were then essential to getting a resolution to their problem(s).

There are hundreds of other mechanisms to resolve social, political, cultural or economic issues. In fact, the vast majority of peoples trying to bring their particular problems to the forefront never resort to killing innocent people as a way to get their oppressors to "compromise" with them. One need look no further than Martin Luther King's struggle for equality in the United States, the Native Americans' slow push for autonomy and/or land rights and/or equality, or Ghandi's little bid for independence way over there in India.

Are you tired of terrorism? Then don't compromise. Let terrorists know that their actions won't help their cause, but will in fact result in it being condemned and ignored, and perhaps even persecuted. These aren't stupid people we're dealing with. They commit terrorist acts because it gets results. If it brought pain and a lessened probability of resolution, they would try other options which have been successful for decades or centuries.

greg

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Yes, and people buying into these strategies and thereby supporting these politicians.

Well, that's their prerogative.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar

9/11, maybe?

When is 9/11 not going to be the reason for everything? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? Never?

Sure it was a big deal, but at what point have we over-compensated for this issue?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

I don't think this is the answer. As I've discussed before, compromising with terrorists only enforces one thing: that their terrorist acts were a valid mechanism for getting their issues aired (on a national or international scene), and that these acts were then essential to getting a resolution to their problem(s).

There are hundreds of other mechanisms to resolve social, political, cultural or economic issues. In fact, the vast majority of peoples trying to bring their particular problems to the forefront never resort to killing innocent people as a way to get their oppressors to "compromise" with them. One need look no further than Martin Luther King's struggle for equality in the United States, the Native Americans' slow push for autonomy and/or land rights and/or equality, or Ghandi's little bid for independence way over there in India.

Are you tired of terrorism? Then don't compromise. Let terrorists know that their actions won't help their cause, but will in fact result in it being condemned and ignored, and perhaps even persecuted. These aren't stupid people we're dealing with. They commit terrorist acts because it gets results. If it brought pain and a lessened probability of resolution, they would try other options which have been successful for decades or centuries.

greg

I didn't mean a compromise with the terrorists.... I meant a compromise (as in trade-off) pertaining to how far we should go to comba these issues given costs.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c

When is 9/11 not going to be the reason for everything? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? Never?

Sure it was a big deal, but at what point have we over-compensated for this issue?

If two planes hitting towers in a major city don't make you a little self-conscious and feel insecure, you are either incredibly resilient or a fool.

Acknowledging these things doesn't mean letting them own you. I think that is the problem you take issue with.

Edit: You could consider Iraq overcompensation if you believe the administrations claims on the subject, but by the same token, the lack of an Osama head on a pike means we must continue doing some work, too.

[Macrobat]

At the same point that we "compensated" for Pearl Harbor - same difference.

You, in your rhetoric and complaint, fail to note that the perpetrators of 9/11 not only haven't surrendered and remain defiant, but are threatening more - even more destructive - acts of the same nature.

When THAT changes, so will the "over-compensation."

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

You, in your rhetoric and complaint, fail to note that the perpetrators of 9/11 not only haven't surrendered and remain defiant, but are threatening more - even more destructive - acts of the same nature.

Funny, I was under the impression that the perpetrators died in the attacks.

[Dork.]

There are ways to isolate the terrorists without isolating all of the Islamic world.

[Sky Captain]

The ones that died were only the tools used to carry out the mission.

[RAILhead]

Problem solved for a few hundred years.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

Are you tired of terrorism? Then don't compromise. Let terrorists know that their actions won't help their cause, but will in fact result in it being condemned and ignored, and perhaps even persecuted. These aren't stupid people we're dealing with. They commit terrorist acts because it gets results. If it brought pain and a lessened probability of resolution, they would try other options which have been successful for decades or centuries.

greg

Quoted because I believe this to be true.

Terrorism continues because its proponents have the hope of successful results. Deny them the success and hope of success, and terrorism diminishes.

Thank you, Greg.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar

If two planes hitting towers in a major city don't make you a little self-conscious and feel insecure, you are either incredibly resilient or a fool.

Acknowledging these things doesn't mean letting them own you. I think that is the problem you take issue with.

Edit: You could consider Iraq overcompensation if you believe the administrations claims on the subject, but by the same token, the lack of an Osama head on a pike means we must continue doing some work, too.

You are right about the problem I take issue with. However, it is also easy to look at a problem and allow it to misguide you in another direction. Sometimes I wonder if 9/11 hasn't already done that, and I don't mean simply in Iraq, just in general.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Quoted because I believe this to be true.

Terrorism continues because its proponents have the hope of successful results. Deny them the success and hope of success, and terrorism diminishes.

Thank you, Greg.

I don't think many of our enemies know what to hope for, they just act out of desperation because they have nothing to lose.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

At the same point that we "compensated" for Pearl Harbor - same difference.

You, in your rhetoric and complaint, fail to note that the perpetrators of 9/11 not only haven't surrendered and remain defiant, but are threatening more - even more destructive - acts of the same nature.

When THAT changes, so will the "over-compensation."

So? Do you ever think they'll just roll over one day and say "okay, you win", and that will be the end of terrorism in this world? Of course not...

We can deal with it, contain it, render them ineffective, as we should. However, our enemies won't change as long as they feel desperate with nothing to lose.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't think many of our enemies know what to hope for, they just act out of desperation because they have nothing to lose.

I disagree. They know exactly what they're hoping for.

They hope for the destruction of America, UK, Israel, and the conversion of those countries to Islamic Republics united under a global Islamic government.

They believe that they will 'get their rights,' freedom from America/Israel/UK when they murder people in those countries.

I know these things because this is what they tell us they desire.

When people declare their aim is to destroy you, listen. If you ignore them or mollify them or excuse them because they lack the power today, their attacks will only become more lethal.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I disagree. They know exactly what they're hoping for.

They hope for the destruction of America, UK, Israel, and the conversion of those countries to Islamic Republics united under a global Islamic government.

They believe that they will 'get their rights,' freedom from America/Israel/UK when they murder people in those countries.

I know these things because this is what they tell us they desire.

When people declare their aim is to destroy you, listen. If you ignore them or mollify them or excuse them because they lack the power today, their attacks will only become more lethal.

I know what they want, I just don't think they have a realistic sense of the liklihood of these desires being fulfillied. The likihood of them getting what they want is miniscule, which is why I don't understand why this terrifies as much as it does.

People want all sorts of things, it doesn't mean that we have to look at the problem irrationally and constantly obsess a worst-case scenario as a virtual inevitability.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I know what they want, I just don't think they have a realistic sense of the liklihood of these desires being fulfillied. The likihood of them getting what they want is miniscule, which is why I don't understand why this terrifies as much as it does.

People want all sorts of things, it doesn't mean that we have to look at the problem irrationally and constantly obsess a worst-case scenario as a virtual inevitability.

Just because you don't think they're able to accomplish their aims has not prevented them from trying additional attacks. As I say, the attacks will become more and more deadly unless we follow what Greg (and I in the past) have proposed.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Just because you don't think they're able to accomplish their aims has not prevented them from trying additional attacks. As I say, the attacks will become more and more deadly unless we follow what Greg (and I in the past) have proposed.

I'm not against being unrelenting and firm with them, I've never suggested otherwise.

Don't you think this issue has been politicized to death though, and created an army of sheep civilians who are happy to spew the same sort of rhetoric that our politicians do, and form these sort of irrational unconditional alliances?

Really, I don't see the Right or the Left as being world's apart on these issues. Again, the issue simply comes down to where lines are drawn in light of the resources at hand.

[Troll]

I'm with you Besson3c. I think that terrorism is something that we do need to deal with but on a list of the top 5 threats to humankind, I think it's in position 5 or worse. I think environmental degradation, disease, the effects of globalisation, self-determination struggles like the Palestinian question and genocide are all bigger issues.

[Zeeb]

Your post actually reminds me of a scene from a movie called "25th hour" where Edward Norton is looking in the mirror.

At any rate, I'm tired of it also. Yet, we can't blame it all on politicians. I think politicians and the public just reflect one another.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I know what they want, I just don't think they have a realistic sense of the liklihood of these desires being fulfillied. The likihood of them getting what they want is miniscule, which is why I don't understand why this terrifies as much as it does.

Why do you think this? Terrorism has been moderately successful throughout its modern history. Prisoners have been exchanged, publicity has been gained, and often the terrorists themselves have not even been unduly detained (I think that out of about couple-hundred-odd terrorists arrested in Europe between '68 and 71' or something, only 3 were still inprisoned in 1975).

Look no farther than the Palestinian cause. Yasser Arafat was an embassary to the UN, despite overwhelming evidence that he was behind terrorist acts up to and including the killing of (I think US) diplomats. Yet, the Palestinian "cause" was not recognized on the international scene until after 1968, when they began their terrorist campaign.

greg

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

Why do you think this? Terrorism has been moderately successful throughout its modern history. Prisoners have been exchanged, publicity has been gained, and often the terrorists themselves have not even been unduly detained (I think that out of about couple-hundred-odd terrorists arrested in Europe between '68 and 71' or something, only 3 were still inprisoned in 1975).

Look no farther than the Palestinian cause. Yasser Arafat was an embassary to the UN, despite overwhelming evidence that he was behind terrorist acts up to and including the killing of (I think US) diplomats. Yet, the Palestinian "cause" was not recognized on the international scene until after 1968, when they began their terrorist campaign.

greg

Terrorism might be an effective (albeit unacceptable) way to gain some ground on some issues, but I was speaking to the broader goals in which these people pursue - the alleged "converting the masses to Islamic faiths" and "global takeover" stuff. This is, of course, taking these alleged goals at face value. It could simply be more fear mongering being implanted that a significant population is actively seeking these broader goals.

Regardless, as far as the US is concerned, our interests will never be threatened by terrorist cells at levels that should concern us. They will be a disrupting force, but not a force that we should fear... more of a relatively minor annoyance.

If Mojo2 were here, he'd lecture us about all these things that radical Islam wants. Great. I'm not disputing their desires, just their means to fulfill these broader desires.

As long as this threat can be kept under control, we don't need to be shaking in our boots and running out to buy duct tape. Just take it all in stride, that's all I'm saying. I'm getting sick of all the attention this has garnered.

[Matius]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Regardless, as far as the US is concerned, our interests will never be threatened by terrorist cells at levels that should concern us. They will be a disrupting force, but not a force that we should fear... more of a relatively minor annoyance.

As long as this threat can be kept under control, we don't need to be shaking in our boots and running out to buy duct tape. Just take it all in stride, that's all I'm saying. I'm getting sick of all the attention this has garnered.

So two towers, a Navy ship, a Marine barracks, a couple of Embassies, and thousands of lives lost is just a minor annoyance to you? And that isn't even all the attacks that have occured, just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Our interests will be threatened until the day the last terrorist on the planet is dead. There are ways to take care of this problem (we are employing some of these ideas now), however it can't be done that quickly, and when the killing starts, it won't remain quiet. As for taking it in stride, well just remember that when your office or home is blown into nothingness by some clown that hates you because you don't share his religious beliefs.

[Sky Captain]

It's not really about religious beliefs.
It's more about proving that a small faction can control the world.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Matius

So two towers, a Navy ship, a Marine barracks, a couple of Embassies, and thousands of lives lost is just a minor annoyance to you? And that isn't even all the attacks that have occured, just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Our interests will be threatened until the day the last terrorist on the planet is dead. There are ways to take care of this problem (we are employing some of these ideas now), however it can't be done that quickly, and when the killing starts, it won't remain quiet. As for taking it in stride, well just remember that when your office or home is blown into nothingness by some clown that hates you because you don't share his religious beliefs.

Sounds like a lot, for sure. How much destruction like that takes place that is caused by US terrorists?

Destruction and mass murder will unfortunately always be a part of our existence. I'm all for taking measures to address this problem, but I don't see a reason for this to be politicized beyond discussion about how to fund these efforts. I don't see anti-terrorism measures as being political issues. We'll always have to set aside some funding and resources to deal with this problem, just like we set aside money for fighting crime, importation of illegal drugs, etc. Why should a politician take credit for and prop him/herself up when there are successes in this ungoing effort?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

It's not really about religious beliefs.
It's more about proving that a small faction can control the world.

Why are so many staunch Republicans/pro-war types worried about the possibility of a small faction controlling the world? Do you have any idea what they would be up against? Look at it from a standpoint of numbers, collective wealth, alliances, global leverage, the interests of industralized countries in the world, etc.

If you look at the big picture from a global perspective, these terrorist activities are like little mosquitos. They are not an army of a million pissed off hungry grizzly bears.

[Sky Captain]

But one explod-o-bomber can take out dozens of innocent people.
Multiply that on a weekly basis and you have real power.
The power of fear. Enough people die, the governments will cave to their wishes.(Northern Ireland?)
Eventually they will control everything. Or more people will die from explod-o-bombers.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

But one explod-o-bomber can take out dozens of innocent people.
Multiply that on a weekly basis and you have real power.
The power of fear. Enough people die, the governments will cave to their wishes.(Northern Ireland?)
Eventually they will control everything. Or more people will die from explod-o-bombers.

If we're not making everyone afraid the terrorists are winning.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

But one explod-o-bomber can take out dozens of innocent people.
Multiply that on a weekly basis and you have real power.
The power of fear. Enough people die, the governments will cave to their wishes.(Northern Ireland?)
Eventually they will control everything. Or more people will die from explod-o-bombers.

Sure the problem can spiral out of control if not addressed. All I'm saying is that I'm sick of all the grandstanding put into how this is addressed. Just do it and take care of business, and chill with all of the rhetoric and drama about "making America safe" and "protecting our liberties" and stuff - this is just politicians speak.

You can work for a company and do good work without using nauseating sales language such as "fulfilling the company's vision of excellence", or "being a valued member of our team", etc. This is the same sort of rhetoric.

I'm sick of talking heads and civilians going on like this... I've come to expect this from politicians, but it of course turns me off when they talk like this too, and at times makes me look for a nearby bucket.


I guess I"m just sick of hearing about this issue, but I guess I've already made that clear

[besson3c]

What's also funny is how many staunch Republicans chastize Liberals for being overly politically correct, yet use this sort of language themselves in discussing terror-related issues

[Spliffdaddy]

"Politically Correct" is simply another way to describe the limiting of free speech.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by besson3c

You can work for a company and do good work without using nauseating sales language such as "fulfilling the company's vision of excellence", or "being a valued member of our team", etc. This is the same sort of rhetoric.

Just because you don't want to talk about your Personal Business Commitments to Team, Execute, Win, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't.

[goMac]

On CNN tonight they had an advert for a news section. It featured the narrator saying something about there being tons of Muslims out there wanting a bigger 9/11. Then it cut to an Islamic man saying (quite calmly, and he was clearly raised in an english culture) that the 3000 killed in September 11th is nothing compared to the number of muslims being killed. The clip was basically spun as the man threatening Americans, when he was doing no such thing.

This is getting really tiring. The "We're all going to die thing" has just been spun into overdrive. It's horrible.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

But one explod-o-bomber can take out dozens of innocent people.
Multiply that on a weekly basis and you have real power.
The power of fear. Enough people die, the governments will cave to their wishes.(Northern Ireland?)
Eventually they will control everything. Or more people will die from explod-o-bombers.

People in England and Ireland spent 30 years living with explod-o-bombers and their societies didn't collapse, why do you think ours will if we have the occassional act of terrorism occur on our soil.

I think all this "security at any cost" movement is highly contemptuous of the American people. It presumes the American people are not strong enough, resilient enough, determined enough to survive in the face of the occassional successful terrorist act. I have faith that if the American people had to live through the low-grade civil war then went on between England and Ireland we would do just fine. I am saddened and dismayed that our government thinks
we the people need to be protected like little children because it is for our own good.

The best thing Bush could have ever done is to have totally destroyed the Taliban in Afghanistan, captured or killed Osama bin Laden--Why hasn't he been caught yet???--and then given a speech at the base of the Statue of Liberty encouraging the American people to go on with their lives in spite of the possibility of more terrorist attacks. (although, to be honest, I don't think any President in recent memory would have had the courage to make that claim. They are all too worried about re-election and not about serving the people.)

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by goMac

On CNN tonight they had an advert for a news section. It featured the narrator saying something about there being tons of Muslims out there wanting a bigger 9/11. Then it cut to an Islamic man saying (quite calmly, and he was clearly raised in an english culture) that the 3000 killed in September 11th is nothing compared to the number of muslims being killed. The clip was basically spun as the man threatening Americans, when he was doing no such thing.

This is getting really tiring. The "We're all going to die thing" has just been spun into overdrive. It's horrible.

Preach on, goMac!

I was sort of scared to think this way in the past, but now I'm nearly convinced that so much of this issue is really overhyped FUD.

Before you call me a terrorist loving America-hater, obviously I'm not saying that this is a non-issue not worthy of our attention, I just desire a little moderation and variety

[Spliffdaddy]

on this day in 1940, Nazi Germany began its first blitz of London.

The following day, a lot of English folks decided the Nazi threat was more than just FUD.

fyi.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

on this day in 1940, Nazi Germany began its first blitz of London.

The following day, a lot of English folks decided the Nazi threat was more than just FUD.

fyi.

As I said before, if you're not scaring people, the terrorists are winning.

[ink]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'm just ****ing tired of all of this crap.

Am I alone?

Nope.

At least with the cold war we were invsting in science and technology to "beat" them. Now, we're just spinning our wheels.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

on this day in 1940, Nazi Germany began its first blitz of London.

The following day, a lot of English folks decided the Nazi threat was more than just FUD.

Wake me when the "Islamo-Facists" are invading.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Quoted because I believe this to be true.

Terrorism continues because its proponents have the hope of successful results. Deny them the success and hope of success, and terrorism diminishes.

How about shutting the heck up about it already and denying them the success! Mmmmkay?!

Because you know what, part of their success is us being completely 'terrorized' by their actions, and making it a major aspect of our social discourse.

I'm 100% with you on this besson3c. I'm so completely sick and tired about hearing how we are sooooo much threatened by muslim extremists and using it as an excuse for all the nationalist, paranoid and self-absorbed ballyhooing going on these days.

Newsflash: Life has been very dangerous from the beginning of time! This is nothing new!

Want to find something to put your efforts into, - how about finding a cure for cancer. Because you can rest assured, those cancer cells are a lot less forgiving than even the most radical and fundamentalist moslem.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

on this day in 1940, Nazi Germany began its first blitz of London.

The following day, a lot of English folks decided the Nazi threat was more than just FUD.

fyi.

What are you afraid of anyway? Don't you live in the middle of nowhere?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

How about shutting the fu<k up about it already and denying them the success! Mmmmkay?!

What's really revealing is that you edited your post and still didn't bother to change your attempt to dodge the naughty words filter we have in place.

If we have it in place, why do you think you're justified in getting around it?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by vmarks

What's really revealing is that you edited your post and still didn't bother to change your attempt to dodge the naughty words filter we have in place.

If we have it in place, why do you think you're justified in getting around it?

My original post had several swear words in it too, except I wasn't swearing *at* anybody in particular, just using the words as an act of expression, which I think is rather different. Do you agree?

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by ink

Nope.

At least with the cold war we were invsting in science and technology to "beat" them. Now, we're just spinning our wheels.

And creating parallel security service agencies.