[marden]

It's atheists.

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/ath1.htm

Statistically, the picture is much the same regarding the perception of Atheists sharing a common vision with the rest of the American polity. When asked to identify the group that "does not at all agree with my vision of American society," 39.6% of respondents listed Atheists, well ahead of Muslims (26.3%); Homosexuals (22.6%); and Jews (7.6%). Conservative Christians drew a negative response from 13.5% of those surveyed, slightly ahead of recent immigrants at 12.5%.

I feel more warmth for peaceloving Muslims, gays, Jews or fundamental Christians than I do for atheists.

I would not want my child to marry an atheist. I would not vote for an atheist unless their opponent was completely objectionable.

[- - e r i k - -]

[marden]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

I'm sorry, but the people have spoken.

[- - e r i k - -]

That's hardly any surprise since America has a religious population of about 90%, the largest of any developed nation. Shame about this correlating the fact that you are also shallow and narrowminded. At least you are honest about it though.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by marden

I would not want my child to marry an atheist.

I don't think you'll be having that problem...

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by marden

It's atheists.

THE ULTIMATE OUTSIDERS? NEW REPORT CASTS ATHEISTS AS "OTHERS" BEYOND MORALITY AND COMMUNITY IN AMERICA



I feel more warmth for peaceloving Muslims, gays, Jews or fundamental Christians than I do for atheists.

I would not want my child to marry an atheist. I would not vote for an atheist unless their opponent was completely objectionable.

Why? Just bigotry or an actual reason? It can't be moral because the groups you listed are all over the moral map. I've never met an atheist who was "objectionable" to me. Not everyone believes. That doesn't mean you have to treat them like crap does it? If I'd choose anyone to be outcast it would be the people who are determined to apply labels and then judge people by them.

[kobi]

Try the Republicans. Next....

[marden]

Originally Posted by invisibleX

Why? Just bigotry or an actual reason? It can't be moral because the groups you listed are all over the moral map. I've never met an atheist who was "objectionable" to me. Not everyone believes. That doesn't mean you have to treat them like crap does it? If I'd choose anyone to be outcast it would be the people who are determined to apply labels and then judge people by them.

From the link.

"Respondents had various interpretations of what atheists are like and what the label means," investigators found in discussions following the initial interviews. Perceptions fell into two categories.

"Some people view atheists as problematic because they associate them with illegality, such as drug use and prostitution -- that is, with immoral people who threaten respectable community from the lower end of the social hierarchy." Presumably, this might be rooted in the claim that only religion can provide an authentic moral compass, and that without a deity (and the presumed punishment in an afterlife), people have little to lose by engaging in certain immoral, sinful behaviors.

"Others saw atheists as rampant materialists and cultural elitists that threaten common values from above -- the ostentatiously wealthy who make a lifestyle out of consumption or the cultural elites who think they know better than everyone else." In both cases, atheists are perceived as "self interested individuals who are not concerned with a common good."

¶ The issue of elitism surfaces in the study findings, with respondents using the Atheist "as a symbolic figure to represent their fears about ... trends in American life." These included crime, rampant self-interest, and an "unaccountable elite."

"The atheist is invoked rhetorically to discuss the links, or tensions, among religion, morality, civic responsibility and patriotism."

The atheists I've run across have seemed more elitist than Democrats, less open to reason and more willing to do away with any and all of the values and traditions that guided us to our greatness.

And frankly they just seem a bit intolerant of Christians. While I've wanted to just leave them be and ignore them, I think it's time to let them know they aren't helping things by imposing their unpopular views on America and acting as though they represent a large % of the population.

In my effort to be tolerant and even handed toward atheists, even when they have attacked and criticized Christians, I see that they just continue criticizing and knocking the traditions that made America what it is and I think it's time the atheists realize that tolerance only goes so far.

Especially when the rest of America is taking the War seriously.

If you don't, that's your perogative. And you should continue speaking your mind whenever and however you wish. But atheism is a philosophy which is clouding and confusing many people and helping to keep them from finding accord with their political opponents.

[D. S. Troyer]

God bless us atheists.

[black bear theory]

Originally Posted by D. S. Troyer

God bless us atheists.

at least we're not contributing proportionally to the prison population like most god-fearing folks.

which makes me wonder - are atheists inherently that much moral than religious people? or is it that we're so much smarter that we don't get caught?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by marden

The atheists I've run across have seemed more elitist than Democrats, less open to reason and more willing to do away with any and all of the values and traditions that guided us to our greatness.

...

Especially when the rest of America is taking the War seriously.

The atheists I've run across in my life have generally been a lot more moral, kind, loving AND definitely more open to reason than their religious counterparts (especially compared to "born again" evangelists and radical muslims).

I think the major problem is that the average American doesn't have a lot of exposure to the "real world" and that, traditionally, they have just believed in too much BS and FUD (compared to most other industrialized, (post) modern nations).

I believe it irks the fundies that non-believers can become successful in life and hold culturally important positions without (in their eyes) doing the right thing. It's not so much that most atheists are "elitist", but that the "cultural elite" (which they actually aren't, but for the sake of the discussion let's just call'em that) doesn't believe in half the stupid sh1t the "average joe" does (I'm sorry, I'm not trying to offend people in the middle class here).

While it's true that some intellectuals do believe in "God" (in whatever shape or form) you'll be hard pressed to find a literalist or fundamentalist among them. Believing in things like the "rapture", creationism or a physical concept of heaven or hell, is, IMO, something for people who are either incredibly dumb or completely ignorant...or both.

Slowly but surely, the neo-cons and their brainwashed followers are realizing that spreading their FUD isn't working on anybody with an IQ above 10. The power of nightmares is fading away faster than people's confidence in the President.

[marden]

Originally Posted by black bear theory

at least we're not contributing proportionally to the prison population like most god-fearing folks.

which makes me wonder - are atheists inherently that much moral than religious people? or is it that we're so much smarter that we don't get caught?

In the world of religious belief you have figurative schools where Christians are inside and some are passing their tests and some who are failing their tests and some who are getting in trouble and having to do detentions.

Atheists are outside the school pissing on the building, smoking pot, drinking Zima and at lunchtime they are telling the students who come out how ****ed school is and how stupid the curriculum and the teachers are and passing joints to the other kids and filling their heads with atheist ideas. Then when the school bus comes they hop on and rag on the driver.

It is an irritating act.

[- - e r i k - -]

Yo, pass me that bong. You must be smoking something good!

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by marden

Atheists are outside
the school pissing on the building,
smoking pot,
drinking Zima
and
at lunchtime they are telling the students who come out
how ****ed school is and how
stupid
the curriculum
and
the teachers are
and passing joints to the other kids
and filling their heads with atheist ideas.
Then
when the school bus comes
they hop on and rag on the driver.

I think you should write poetry. Far out brotha!

[Millennium]

Whoever is speaking is America's ultimate outsider.

Seriously. Everyone has this massive persecution complex, while the truth is that very few Americans (or non-Americans, for that matter) really have any interest in persecuting anybody at all.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Whoever is speaking is America's ultimate outsider.

Seriously. Everyone has this massive persecution complex, while the truth is that very few Americans (or non-Americans, for that matter) really have any interest in persecuting anybody at all.

Link?



But seriously, the anti-Christian atheists have become noticeable by their effect on society and the the ongoing debate over the war and whenever the debate gets really heated I've noticed it's an atheist in the thick of it and sometimes serving in the role of instigator.

If we can achieve greater unity in the coming weeks, I think the U.S. will be better off. Democrats and liberals are Christians and Jews, also. Not just Republicans and conservatives. When the atheists criticize Christians or Christianity too few of the Christian Dems and libs speak up.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by marden

When the atheists criticize Christians or Christianity too few of the Christian Dems and libs speak up.

And when atheists criticize "Christianity" they are usually referring to the fundies, heretics and war-mongers.

I've yet to meet an atheist who is opposed to religious freedom.

[subego]

Who are America's ULTIMATE outsiders?

Fat people.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by marden

Atheists are outside the school pissing on the building, smoking pot

Not so bad, except that I was INSIDE the school pissing on the building, ...

Pee, my weapon of choice!

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by black bear theory

at least we're not contributing proportionally to the prison population like most god-fearing folks.

which makes me wonder - are atheists inherently that much moral than religious people? or is it that we're so much smarter that we don't get caught?

LMAO! I've seen this BS forwarded many times.

Here's the reality for you:

Most of those incarcerated "Christians" use the "I found Jesus" bit while already locked up, because they think that parole boards look favorably upon their "changed ways."

Sorry, but it's bovine scatology.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by marden

It's atheists.

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/ath1.htm



I feel more warmth for peaceloving Muslims, gays, Jews or fundamental Christians than I do for atheists.

I would not want my child to marry an atheist. I would not vote for an atheist unless their opponent was completely objectionable.

Thus confirming that study SWG posted a while back.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by marden

From the link.



The atheists I've run across have seemed more elitist than Democrats, less open to reason and more willing to do away with any and all of the values and traditions that guided us to our greatness.

And frankly they just seem a bit intolerant of Christians. While I've wanted to just leave them be and ignore them, I think it's time to let them know they aren't helping things by imposing their unpopular views on America and acting as though they represent a large % of the population.

In my effort to be tolerant and even handed toward atheists, even when they have attacked and criticized Christians, I see that they just continue criticizing and knocking the traditions that made America what it is and I think it's time the atheists realize that tolerance only goes so far.

Especially when the rest of America is taking the War seriously.

If you don't, that's your perogative. And you should continue speaking your mind whenever and however you wish. But atheism is a philosophy which is clouding and confusing many people and helping to keep them from finding accord with their political opponents.

Atheism is a philosophy? WTF? Christianity is a philosophy. Atheisim is a rejection of the belief in the existance of a god.

Atheists don't "believe" in anything (except that they shouldn't have government impose religious doctrine on them).

What I find most confusing about your rant is that you equate being a Christian with being patriotic. That's the most idiotic thing I've heard. More people oppose the war than support it (and please let's not get into the "support out troops" debate). So in your mind, someone that doesn't believe in your god can't love, honor and support America. Total rubbish. Let's just go with the statistic that 10% of the population is atheist. That's about 300,000 Americans. When you see a handful of people who profess to be atheist protesting the war and rejecting the policy of the government, then ALL athiests are "aren't helping things by imposing their unpopular views on America and acting as though they represent a large % of the population". Thus only the majority is allowed to express it's views, and everyone else should shut up. Yikes... that's a scary world you live in.

"And frankly they just seem a bit intolerant of Christians." Well, as a life-long atheist, I can't tell you how many encounters I've had with "Christians" that view me with complete disdain and contempt when they find out I don't believe in their god. I am by no means quick to admit my atheism because so many people I've encountered think that a lack of belief in a god indicates a complete lack of a moral compass. Total rubbish.

[Monique]

First, any foreigners then any gay person.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Monique

First, any foreigners then any gay person.

WooHoo!! I win on both counts!!!

[awcopus]

Judge people one person at a time. Judge how? Based on what they do, which includes the things they choose to say.

My position on religion is more sophisticated than a simple atheistic stand conveys. My biggest problem is with faith as an epistemological method: the notion that a proposition should be accepted as true without any confirming evidence, verifying data. So, obviously I don't believe in the objective existence of supernatural entities. But as importantly, I object to the imposition of public policies that are not evidence-based. It is not a coincidence that the public policies I end up objecting to are coercive, tend to ignore the brute fact of human individuality, tend to use some people as means to ends without their consent.

I believe in peace based on individual human freedom and responsibility, liberty and mutual consent as a guide to personal and economic justice. Most of my Atheist/Christian/Jewish friends believe in more policies that constrain individual freedom than I do. So which of us is truer to the American ideal? Hmm.

So I'm atheistic, but that's hardly the whole story about me.

[Kerrigan]

Very few people are died in the wool atheists. You could almost say that atheism is untenable for most people. We all rely on belief in the unseen, and most people believe that reality has an underlying or presupposed "essence" or "infinitude".

A true atheist has to embrace a nihilistic doctrine of finitude. Most people, even those who claim to be atheists, cannot accept that.

In a way, there is a fine irony about people who actually accept a nihilistic, atheistic view of the world. They know that our existence is the ultimate tragedy and yet they continue to go about their lives in a civilized fashion. God probably holds these types of people in high regard.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Monique

First, any foreigners then any gay person.

What about a gay foreigner?

[Kerrigan]

What about a black lesbian who immigrated from a muslim country but converted to judaism?

[Dakar]

What about Bob?

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

What about a black lesbian who immigrated from a muslim country but converted to judaism?

You forgot transgengered.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

You forgot transgengered.

Yankees. They're the only outsiders. They've never learned that interstates have a northbound lane, too.

Seriously, there are no outsiders here. That's the beauty of the US -- we welcome anyone. Anyone has a chance to make their life work. I guess you could consider anyone who refuses to assimilate into the culture. But there are many groups here that have maintained their cultural identity (and agenda, sometimes).

Not Yankees though. Heck, most of them don't even like grits.

[Landos Mustache]

I posted a thread on another study that showed:

1. Atheists
2. Gays
3. Muslims

Considering how America is fighting 2 wars and spending trillions on them with countless lives lost and and the US currently revolves around protecting themselves from terrorists, it is frightening how Atheists and gays are a bigger concern. Sickening really.

[Macrobat]

The primary (and over-riding) difference) is that no gays or atheists are killing people, forcing them to "convert" at gunpoint, or have a stated goal of making the entire world gay or atheist.

You sound like you are actually complaining about not being shot at.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Whoever is speaking is America's ultimate outsider.

Seriously. Everyone has this massive persecution complex, while the truth is that very few Americans (or non-Americans, for that matter) really have any interest in persecuting anybody at all.

I agree, I think people identify to a certain extent with their "outsideness". If you're not an outsider in some fashion than you are automatically a persecutor and supposedly derserving of hate just by existing. Ha! I think I've just identified another persecuted group--the unpersecuted.

That's not say there isn't real hatred out there directed by bigots, but the only requirements is that a more powerful group victimizes a less powerful one. Come back in a week, and has the formerly persecuted group more empathetic because they were victimized? Nope, it just their turn to persecute now. People don't learn empathy, they only want revenge.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

A true atheist has to embrace a nihilistic doctrine of finitude. Most people, even those who claim to be atheists, cannot accept that.

In a way, there is a fine irony about people who actually accept a nihilistic, atheistic view of the world. They know that our existence is the ultimate tragedy and yet they continue to go about their lives in a civilized fashion. God probably holds these types of people in high regard.

I think you may be mixing up nihilism and existentialism.

Nihilism has a rejection of morality component (at least according to my dictionary widget )

For a moral existentialist, not living your life in a civilized fashion is the ultimate tragedy.

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

God probably holds these types of people in high regard.

You may be surprised by how many atheists believe this.

Then again, you may not.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by marden

From the link.

The atheists I've run across have seemed more elitist than Democrats, less open to reason and more willing to do away with any and all of the values and traditions that guided us to our greatness.

And frankly they just seem a bit intolerant of Christians. While I've wanted to just leave them be and ignore them, I think it's time to let them know they aren't helping things by imposing their unpopular views on America and acting as though they represent a large % of the population.

In my effort to be tolerant and even handed toward atheists, even when they have attacked and criticized Christians, I see that they just continue criticizing and knocking the traditions that made America what it is and I think it's time the atheists realize that tolerance only goes so far.

Especially when the rest of America is taking the War seriously.

If you don't, that's your perogative. And you should continue speaking your mind whenever and however you wish. But atheism is a philosophy which is clouding and confusing many people and helping to keep them from finding accord with their political opponents.

So being anti-muslim is free speech but being anti-christian is intolerable?

A large portion of americans are ill informed sheep no more capable of making a rational decision than said critter. Those who have only the vaguest grasp of the world don't deserve to vote never mind get accolades for their ignorance. I for one support the war but not for the reasons expressed by "the rest of america".

Unity is a very dangerous thing and the last one you want in the political arena. Discord is an undeniable strength which is the cornerstone of western political systems. Atheism has nothing to do with politics and neither does christianity. Neither will clear you mind to the one and only course of action (coincidentally the one a certain group wants).

Myself, I try to be tolerant and understanding of all people. Don't like my ideas? Fine. Hate me? Good for you.

[D. S. Troyer]

Originally Posted by Dakar

What about Bob?

Bob Goulet?

[marden]

Originally Posted by invisibleX

So being anti-muslim is free speech but being anti-christian is intolerable?

A large portion of americans are ill informed sheep no more capable of making a rational decision than said critter. Those who have only the vaguest grasp of the world don't deserve to vote never mind get accolades for their ignorance. I for one support the war but not for the reasons expressed by "the rest of america".

Unity is a very dangerous thing and the last one you want in the political arena. Discord is an undeniable strength which is the cornerstone of western political systems. Atheism has nothing to do with politics and neither does christianity. Neither will clear you mind to the one and only course of action (coincidentally the one a certain group wants).

Myself, I try to be tolerant and understanding of all people. Don't like my ideas? Fine. Hate me? Good for you.

That is an example of how you think you are superior to Republicans and Democrats regardless of religion. If elitism is annoying atheists like you are insufferable. As a sheeple i resent your attitude of contempt. Unity is a good thing when under attack. A tactic of war is to divide and conquer. The atheists I've seen are dividers. You say that "Atheism has nothing to do with politics." But you just said a dangerous political idea. "Unity is a very dangerous thing." Others might like how that sounds and repeat it. And that's ok during peacetime. But not during war.

Along with their inconsequential qualities the atheists I've seen also bring some odious qualities to a political discussion. A skunk is a very cute animal except for the smell that's part of the package.

[himself]

Originally Posted by marden

That is an example of how you think you are superior to Republicans and Democrats regardless of religion. If elitism is annoying atheists like you are insufferable. As a sheeple i resent your attitude of contempt. Unity is a good thing when under attack. A tactic of war is to divide and conquer. The atheists I've seen are dividers. You say that "Atheism has nothing to do with politics." But you just said a dangerous political idea. "Unity is a very dangerous thing." Others might like how that sounds and repeat it. And that's ok during peacetime. But not during war.

Along with their inconsequential qualities the atheists I've seen also bring some odious qualities to a political discussion. A skunk is a very cute animal except for the smell that's part of the package.

I'm not an atheist, but I don't see the use in being bigoted towards them. From my personal experience, atheists have been among the most civil and thoughtful people I've known. They have actually taken the time to ponder the decisions that will determine how they live their lives, instead of accepting them blindly from an outside entity.

They also bring more to "a political discussion" than you are probably willing to admit. Atheists aren't bogged down with all of the dogmatism that is present in so many discussions with so-called "believers." Asks an atheist for their reasonings and you'll likely get a well reasoned answer, as opposed to something like "because my religion says so, and you must believe so too."

And, apparently, invisibleX's post went over your head. He never said unity is a bad thing, period. In the context of politics, unity is a bad thing. He's saying that you are playing right into the hands of these unscrupulous politicians when you are so quick to persecute a group that you've probably had little or no meaningful interaction with. It is you who are doing the dividing for them. Also be aware that if it is okay for you (as a Christian) to talk down to Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, Atheists, or "heathens" in general, you shouldn't be surprised when someone else does the same to you.

[subego]

Exactly what I wanted to say, only better.

(and less self-serving, since I more or less am an atheist )

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by marden

That is an example of how you think you are superior to Republicans and Democrats regardless of religion. If elitism is annoying atheists like you are insufferable. As a sheeple i resent your attitude of contempt. Unity is a good thing when under attack. A tactic of war is to divide and conquer. The atheists I've seen are dividers. You say that "Atheism has nothing to do with politics." But you just said a dangerous political idea. "Unity is a very dangerous thing." Others might like how that sounds and repeat it. And that's ok during peacetime. But not during war.

I very much understand where you are coming from. You see the world in a very black and white us vs. them way. But what you don't seem to realize is that it's you that is the divisor here.

Atheists in general are very tolerant and understanding when it comes to religion. I myself most certainly are, getting married to a Christian. We see other people's need to believe and understand them. You, on the contrary seem to be very intolerant and have no understanding of why people choose NOT to believe. To be guided by logic and reason seem a foreign concept to you. And in that you are the one who choose to let yourself be divided instead of embracing and understanding. And yes, uniting.

I am sad for you.

[Mithras]

I work with a gay, atheist, culturally Muslim Palestinian, would he count as the ultimate outsider?

[BRussell]

Our former president Bush's statement on atheists:

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

[marden]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Our former president Bush's statement on atheists:

They have rights like everyone else. Thank God our founding fathers were tolerant.

The issue of elitism surfaces in the study findings, with respondents using the Atheist "as a symbolic figure to represent their fears about ... trends in American life." These included crime, rampant self-interest, and an "unaccountable elite."

"The atheist is invoked rhetorically to discuss the links, or tensions, among religion, morality, civic responsibility and patriotism."

As for elitism, Atheists appear to have replaced groups that in the past have been identified as constituting an over-influential clique subverting American values.

The researchers note that in the public imagination, Atheists are linked "with a kind of unaccountable elitism," a phenomenon that has purportedly surfaced in public debates. Indeed, Charlotte Allen, author of the 2004 book "The Twilight of Atheism," expressed fears that Atheism "may yet be experiencing a new dawn: a terrifying new alliance of money and power, of a kind even Marx could not have foreseen."

¶ The debate over Atheists, Atheists and the issue of religion in civil society has been fueled by the terrorist attacks of 9/11. The Minnesota team devoted a section of their report to quotes from leading officials such as former Attorney General John Ashcroft, who in public statements invoked religion as a guarantor of freedom and human dignity. The 2004 presidential campaign witnessed similar rhetoric.


The study underscored the role of Atheists as "symbolic" of angst permeating American culture. "Negative views about atheists are strong," noted the researchers, although "survey respondents were not, on the whole, referring to actual atheists they had encountered." Instead, the Atheist is a sort of boundary marker distinguishing members of a wider policy from "others," outsiders, those not sharing assumptions about morality and the role of religion. Religion is widely perceived as providing "habits of the heart," and a disposition which includes one in membership within a larger community. Americans "construct the atheist as the symbolic representation of one who rejects the basis for moral solidarity and cultural membership in American society altogether."

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by marden

Link?



But seriously, the anti-Christian atheists have become noticeable by their effect on society and the the ongoing debate over the war and whenever the debate gets really heated I've noticed it's an atheist in the thick of it and sometimes serving in the role of instigator.

If we can achieve greater unity in the coming weeks, I think the U.S. will be better off. Democrats and liberals are Christians and Jews, also. Not just Republicans and conservatives. When the atheists criticize Christians or Christianity too few of the Christian Dems and libs speak up.

Right on brotha.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

And when atheists criticize "Christianity" they are usually referring to the fundies, heretics and war-mongers.

I've yet to meet an atheist who is opposed to religious freedom.

Oh please, you criticize anything to do with Christianity. Who are you trying to fool?

[marden]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Oh please, you criticize anything to do with Christianity. Who are you trying to fool?

America & Christianity. If I didn't know any better i'd say he was a rad islamic type.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Oh please, you criticize anything to do with Christianity. Who are you trying to fool?

More lies!

BTW, you're not a Christian, so you wouldn't know.

[marden]

Are we all just Narcissistic Supply to you?

Narcissists, Narcissistic Supply and Sources of Supply

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by marden

Are we all just Narcissistic Supply to you?

Couldthis be why you are constantly accusing atheists of being "elitists"?