[subego]

Orion 27's thread made me think of this. It might have worked in the regular lounge, but I figured just put it here and then no one is required to play nice.

As an American, I'm aware the rest of the world looks down on us for our lack of linguistic verisimilitude.

Guilty as charged. I took French in high school. I didn't particularly care for it and made no effort to maintain it after I left.

If I do remember anything though, is how it was thoroughly unacceptable to speak with an "English" accent.

While someone who was a native speaker of French may understand me when I said "parlays voos Fransays" as if I were speaking English, they would undoubtedly consider me to be a massive American dork.

Every Brit I know can do an American accent and vice versa.

So what is up with thick accents? Is this not a complete lack of effort, and if not, what is it?

P.S. I'll accept "not really realizing" as an answer, though I think the concept I am talking about is blisteringly obvious once you think about it, it didn't actually occur to me until a few years ago.

[TheWOAT]

An English accent applied to any language just sounds plain ugly... I cant stand to hear spanish being spoken with an English accent, to the point that I hated the movie "like water for chocolate" because of that white guy and his horrible spanish.

[Kerrigan]

Most Spanish people are white.

[TheWOAT]

If you have seen the movie, you know which character I am referring to.

[Kr0nos]

As somebody who knows several languages I can tell you, the hardest part is to speak "accent free". Long after you've mastered vocabulary, grammar and even the general rhythmic pattern, you slowly begin to lose your "native" accent.

This is due to the fact that a lot of comes down to actual physiological differences (your language shapes the muscles in your mouth, your tongue etc.). That's why the French, for example, find it almost impossible to pronounce an "h", the Chinese have problems with the "r" and you get the typical German "zeeeee" instead of a proper "th".

So no, Americans aren't especially predisposition to "mess up" foreign languages. The only reason I speak English accent free is because I grew up bilingual. Oddly enough, even though I first learned to speak German (and use it far more often than any other language), I speak French with an English accent, - dunno how that works. And quite honestly, I don't care.

[hyteckit]

Accent or just mispronounced?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Accent or just mispronounced?

That's a very good point actually. I guess since it's a "systematic mispronunciation" of a foreign language, you could call it an accent.

[moodymonster]

suppose some of it will be akin to non English speaking people mispronouncing words like 'crisps' - lot's of Asian/Oriental people pronounce it 'crips' or 'cwisps'

I think (as has been suggested above), it's not so much accent - but mispronunciation.

While in Germany I went to the trouble of trying to learn a bit of German, only to have the Germans (and Swiss) reply to me in English. Obviously they were overawed at my mastery of the German language and stunned into speaking English. Tends not to work in France though (where sometimes they can speak English but won't let on).

[Oisín]

As somebody who knows several languages I can tell you, the hardest part is to speak "accent free". Long after you've mastered vocabulary, grammar and even the general rhythmic pattern, you slowly begin to lose your "native" accent.

That depends a lot on the person. I have a natural knack (if a knack can said to be ‘natural’) for imitating foreign sounds and melodies, even without actually knowing much of a language. I’ve been told by several Turkish people that, apart from reading somewhat too slowly, my Turkish sounds almost native—and I know no more than five or six words of Turkish and a minuscule spattering of the grammar. Similarly with Finnish (though I’m studying that now and thus know a bit more of the actual language).

This is due to the fact that a lot of comes down to actual physiological differences (your language shapes the muscles in your mouth, your tongue etc.). That's why the French, for example, find it almost impossible to pronounce an "h", the Chinese have problems with the "r" and you get the typical German "zeeeee" instead of a proper "th".

While it is true that your tongue muscles do adapt slightly to your native language(s), the actual physical change is very small. More or less anyone (who isn’t afflicted with some kind of lingual ‘handicap’) can, physically, learn more or less any sound uttered in any language.

A far greater hindrance is that one’s hearing is greatly affected by one’s native tongue, and it takes a lot of training to learn to distinguish various sounds that don’t exist in one’s own language. As infants, we hear all sounds more or less equally; but as we grow up in a usually mono- or bilingual environment, we become more susceptive to the sounds we hear in our own language, and increasingly ‘deaf’ to sounds that don’t exist in our own language.

This is not too noticeable in languages such as English or French, which both have very loose phonotactical rules (i.e., combinations as shklarngths, while not an actual word, is [relatively] easily pronounced in English, since English permits more or less any number or combination of consonants—with exceptions, of course—at any place in a syllable).

In phonotactically very narrow languages (such as Chinese, for example, where no syllable can consist of more than a maximum one consonant, one vowel [including diphthongs], and one nasal [n or ng], nothing more), it becomes very obvious. Not only will a Chinese person find it quite a task to pronounce ‘shklarngths’ (he will most likely turn it into gang, since that’s the closest his own phonotactic rulesets allow for), he will find it hard to even hear all four consonant sounds at the end (ng and th counting only one each).

One of the reasons so many people in the world speak foreign languages with heavy accents is that there is a lingering notion in many educational institutions that as long as you know the grammar and the words, you know the language. Pronunciation isn’t trained properly, and when the teacher himself doesn’t know how to pronounce things correctly, nor will his students. This is slowly changing (at least here), but it’s still far from ideal.

Another (probably the biggest) is of course that they’re not continually exposed to the lanuage from an early age. This is, uniquely, the reason that Scandinavians and the Dutch speak English better and with better pronunciation than people from most other non-English-speaking countries: we’re exposed to English through movies, TV, music, radio, pretty much everywhere, from we’re wee ’uns.

So no, Americans aren't especially predisposition to "mess up" foreign languages.

Not through virtue of being American, no. But people from English-speaking countries do have one disadvantage: their native language is the current lingua franca of the world, the one that all the others are learning from age five or so. This means that while most non-English-speaking children, in Europe at least, are exposed to learning a foreign language (English) at a very young age—something absolutely invaluable when talking about learning languages or getting rid of an accent—English and American children are usually not exposed to learning a second language till some years later, when the use of this is far less significant.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

As somebody who knows several languages I can tell you, the hardest part is to speak "accent free". Long after you've mastered vocabulary, grammar and even the general rhythmic pattern, you slowly begin to lose your "native" accent.

Yeah, takes a long time. At the end of my stay in the States, most people didn't notice I wasn't a native speaker (unless you tell 'em, then they start looking for differences). To completely master a language, you have to learn it as a child. Although even then, I heard from people who grew up bi- or even trilingually, they feel they can do neither right and the languages' rhythms and patterns kinda merge.

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

This is due to the fact that a lot of comes down to actual physiological differences (your language shapes the muscles in your mouth, your tongue etc.). That's why the French, for example, find it almost impossible to pronounce an "h", the Chinese have problems with the "r" and you get the typical German "zeeeee" instead of a proper "th".

Also hearing is a crucial factor. Japanese for instance don't hear a difference between shinbun and shimbun or taxi and takshi -- so it's hard for them to see the subtle differences in other languages. German is -- afaik -- a `good' language as it contains relatively many different sounds which are used in other languages as well, so it's easier to hear difference between different sounds.

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

So no, Americans aren't especially predisposition to "mess up" foreign languages. The only reason I speak English accent free is because I grew up bilingual.

The lack of foreign language skills is due to the fact that English is the lingua franca these days, so there is no real impetus to practice a foreign language these days.

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Oddly enough, even though I first learned to speak German (and use it far more often than any other language), I speak French with an English accent, - dunno how that works. And quite honestly, I don't care.

I guess you speak French with an English accent, because you were taught in English, right? (A Romanian scientist I've met has learned English in France, so he speaks English with a French accent )

[Oisín]

German is -- afaik -- a `good' language as it contains relatively many different sounds which are used in other languages as well, so it's easier to hear difference between different sounds.

German is quite good, yes. No language is perfect for the purpose of learning other languages (phonetically speaking), but some are better than others.

Greenlandic or Hawai‘ian, for instance, are both completely hopeless, since they contain so very few phonemes (slightly more actual sounds in the case of Greenlandic). Probably the ultimate language, speaking of sounds along, is !Xóõ, which has an almost mind-boggling amount of sounds, especially clicks (how anyone can distinguish between 83 different click sounds is absolutely beyond my ken!).

[OreoCookie]

Yeah, but some Chinese dialects are right up there with up to (afaik) 7 different intonations. Although I must say that you learn to pick up the differences after a while (I've had many Taiwanese friends in Japan), although I cannot imagine myself speaking in real-time, though

Japanese is pretty easy from that point of view (the hardest part now is to speak `naturally', taking all the different feelings, emotions and ranks into account). It's not like they'd believe any non-Asian being able to speak Japanese fluently anyway (Although some do.)

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Oisín

That depends a lot on the person…

Very interesting and insightful post.

I guess the only thing I could add is that I have met maybe 2 or 3 people in my entire life who can speak more than one language completely "accent-free", quite a few though, who have mastered the grammar and rhythm of up to 4 languages.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

I guess the only thing I could add is that I have met maybe 2 or 3 people in my entire life who can speak more than one language completely "accent-free", quite a few though, who have mastered the grammar and rhythm of up to 4 languages.

Were they raised multilingually or have they learnt the languages later on?

I think it's already an accomplishment if people cannot tell what country you're from and for most of us, this is as good as it gets. Also, I notice that the claim of `not sounding native' is a rather subjective thing: some local accents are easier to learn than others.

For me, Pennsylvania Dutch (it's derived from `Deutsch') is a lot easier to learn than some Southern twang down in Georgia (where my sister has been). On occasion, people were even using some German words in everyday conversations.

Also, I remember an English friend of mine, she claimed I didn't understand some of the words she used because I'm a foreigner. So I asked the Americans who were listening in what these words meant (one of them was manky) -- they didn't have the slightest clue either

From my experience moving around Germany a few times, I can also say that learning a local dialect is as difficult as learning a foreign language accent-free: most people can't unless they've been raised there.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

The lack of foreign language skills is due to the fact that English is the lingua franca these days, so there is no real impetus to practice a foreign language these days.

This is completely circumstantial though. I really can't say that Americans are any better or worse when it comes to mastering a foreign language.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I guess you speak French with an English accent, because you were taught in English, right?

Come to think of it, that might be true, yes. (Though I learned the basics in Germany)

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Were they raised multilingually or have they learnt the languages later on?

Yep, they were raised bi-lingual (French/German).

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

This is completely circumstantial though. I really can't say that Americans are any better or worse when it comes to mastering a foreign language.

Well, it's not a matter of `ability', rather than of necessity and culture. Americans usually don't need to practice another language, English is the common denominator these days. Americans who are interested in mastering another language are just as good as any of the rest.

(BTW, I've expanded my post above a bit.)

[marden]

On the PBS political show, the McLaughlin Group, Tony Blankley is losing his British accent but hasn't gained an American accent yet and just sounds weird.

Listen to him speak here.
The McLaughlin Group Library

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Oisín

In phonotactically very narrow languages (such as Chinese, for example, where no syllable can consist of more than a maximum one consonant, one vowel [including diphthongs], and one nasal [n or ng], nothing more), it becomes very obvious. Not only will a Chinese person find it quite a task to pronounce ‘shklarngths’ (he will most likely turn it into gang, since that’s the closest his own phonotactic rulesets allow for), he will find it hard to even hear all four consonant sounds at the end (ng and th counting only one each).

Ah, yes: the principle of the shibboleth. You got SBLOUNSKCHED!

[Oisín]

Yeah, but some Chinese dialects are right up there with up to (afaik) 7 different intonations.

That’s a different thing, though, intonation. As with the proper melody to use in a foreign language, mastering the concept of phonemic tones is, for most, much harder than mastering foreign-sounding sounds.

(And there are actually some dialects of Cantonese that have up to 13 tones; seven is the bare minimum for Cantonese, with nine being the number in the more ‘official’ dialects... I think.)

I guess the only thing I could add is that I have met maybe 2 or 3 people in my entire life who can speak more than one language completely "accent-free", quite a few though, who have mastered the grammar and rhythm of up to 4 languages.

If we discount bilinguals who grow up in bilingual areas (people from Luxembourg, for example), the number is indeed very low. I’ve been told by various Americans that I have absolutely no accent when speaking American (including local American ones; my accent is apparently 100 per cent Broadcast American); but I’m not sure how accurate that is. I’m sure that if they listened more carefully, they could find inaccuracies in my pronunciation. The greatest compliment I ever got, though, was from a girl in Galway who was selling tickets to the Aran Islands ferry. She asked me if I was from some little local middle-of-nowhere town I’d never heard of before (but which is apparently about 25 km from Galway), ’cause that was where she was from, and I spoke the exact way they did there. That both pleased and baffled me immensely.

This is completely circumstantial though. I really can't say that Americans are any better or worse when it comes to mastering a foreign language.

Precisely. The innate ability to acquire a foreign language is, on average, probably more or less exactly the same all over the world. The resulting outcome (that Americans are notoriously bad language learners) is simply due to the fact that, since there is no pressure on them to learn a second language (at least until at a higher age), when they do start learning a new language, they have a great disadvantage to people from many other countries; and this disadvantage can’t be helped, redeemed, or undone.

Ah, yes: the principle of the shibboleth. You got SBLOUNSKCHED!

Damn, that word is hard to say. I keep getting to sblounskch- and then my tongue sort of refuses to move up to the last t sound. Either that, or I say sblounshkch- and then realise I said it wrong.

[Monique]

Everyone has an accent. If you live in a place where people have the same accent than you; you will not be able to hear it. But, it does not mean that their English or other languages are not valid or cannot be understood. I have an accent when I speak English but it does not mean that I cannot be understood. There is no point in putting down people that do not speak like you do. More accents mean a different culture and it enriches your country so much. I wish people could see that.

[Oisín]

Who’s talking about putting people down because of their accents (apart from the example of French with an English accent in France, which is for political, rather than linguistic, reasons)?

There’s nothing inherently bad about having a non-native accent, as long as it’s not so strong that it makes what you say incomprehensible; there are, however, many advantages in properly mastering a native (or even better: local) dialect/accent, so as to merge ‘seamlessly’ into local society.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Oisín

That’s a different thing, though, intonation. As with the proper melody to use in a foreign language, mastering the concept of phonemic tones is, for most, much harder than mastering foreign-sounding sounds.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Oisín

(And there are actually some dialects of Cantonese that have up to 13 tones; seven is the bare minimum for Cantonese, with nine being the number in the more ‘official’ dialects... I think.)

I thought it was four (but perhaps we are talking about different things) and the dialect spoken in Taiwan has three.

Originally Posted by Oisín

I’ve been told by various Americans that I have absolutely no accent when speaking American (including local American ones; my accent is apparently 100 per cent Broadcast American); but I’m not sure how accurate that is.

Ditto here (and I'm not sure about the accuracy either ). Although the accent wore off (if I had any), especially during my time in Japan: too many foreigners

Originally Posted by Oisín

... is simply due to the fact that, since there is no pressure on them to learn a second language (at least until at a higher age), when they do start learning a new language, they have a great disadvantage to people from many other countries; and this disadvantage can’t be helped, redeemed, or undone.

… except for Spanish perhaps

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Oddly enough, even though I first learned to speak German (and use it far more often than any other language), I speak French with an English accent, - dunno how that works. And quite honestly, I don't care.

You may not care, but I'm going to chime in anyway.

I'm a native English speaker and also speak Russian, French, Chinese, and Japanese with varying levels of skill. Besides English, Russian is by far my strongest language. I've had a number of Japanese people tell me that I speak Japanese with a Russian accent, and when I was in China (Northern China, at least) people would continually ask me if I was Russian. I've also noticed myself that when I try to speak French, Japanese, or Chinese without putting much effort into my accent I tend to use a Russian accent for them.

My guess is that the human brain sort of classifies languages as 'mine' and 'foreign'. Since you and I both speak multiple 'foreign' languages it tends to group them together and so all your 'foreign' languages tend to take on similar characteristics. If one of those languages is much more strongly ingrained in your mind than the others it tends to dominate your 'foreign' language skills.

I've also noticed, in support of this theory, when I'm trying to use one of my weaker foreign languages, that I'll tend to come up with Russian words for things before I can think of the word in the appropriate language. I suspect that if I were to get closer to fluent in my non-English languages that my brain would start to differentiate between them better, but I suppose I could also be too old for that now.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Similarly with Finnish (though I’m studying that now and thus know a bit more of the actual language).

We shall see.

[Oisín]

I thought it was four (but perhaps we are talking about different things) and the dialect spoken in Taiwan has three.

Standard Mandarin has four tones. Minnan (Southern Min) has three in most of its varieties (some have four or five as well). Cantonese is a whole spectre of dialects that have anything between 7 all the way up to 13 tones. The most ‘standardised’ versions, though (the ones used in the major cities and, of course, Hong Kong, have 9 tones. At least, that’s how I remember it—there might be some inacurracies in my numbers; been a while since I read the book...

We shall see.

Indeed we shall

Well, I’ve only been studying it for a bit over two weeks, mutta joko tunten oikein paljon sanat, arvelen. (Yah, we’re not really being taught any grammar, so I’m guessing a lot there)

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Standard Mandarin has four tones. Minnan (Southern Min) has three in most of its varieties (some have four or five as well). Cantonese is a whole spectre of dialects that have anything between 7 all the way up to 13 tones. The most ‘standardised’ versions, though (the ones used in the major cities and, of course, Hong Kong, have 9 tones. At least, that’s how I remember it—there might be some inacurracies in my numbers; been a while since I read the book...

Thanks for the clarification. Since I have no skills in Chinese, I had to take their word for it.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

So I asked the Americans who were listening in what these words meant (one of them was manky) -- they didn't have the slightest clue either

Yeah, no doubt. When people from England speak with a "northern" (from Manchester etc.) accent, I usually can't understand a word they're saying. They might as well be talking Chinese.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

From my experience moving around Germany a few times, I can also say that learning a local dialect is as difficult as learning a foreign language accent-free: most people can't unless they've been raised there.

I'm pretty good at imitating a variety of German accents, but yes, especially "Plattdeutsch"(sp?) is extremely hard to understand.

What's funny too, is when foreigners only learn to speak German with a heavy regional accent. Totally cracks me up.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

What's funny too, is when foreigners only learn to speak German with a heavy regional accent. Totally cracks me up.

Heey Vato, I only speak northern-Mexican (ranchera) Spanish...

It's silly to look down on someone attepting to speak your language, even if they have an accent. The alternative is that they don't even try.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

You may not care, but I'm going to chime in anyway…

Wow. Cool explanation. Thx.

Oddly enough, some English people have also told me I speak with an Irish accent. 'No idea where that comes from…maybe it is "genetic" (Irish heritage here).

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by ink

Heey Vato, I only speak northern-Mexican (ranchera) Spanish...

It's silly to look down on someone attepting to speak your language, even if they have an accent. The alternative is that they don't even try.

Oh, no I didn't mean that I look down on them. It's more of a "cracks-me-up-because-it's-cute" kinda thing…

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Yeah, no doubt. When people from England speak with a "northern" (from Manchester etc.) accent, I usually can't understand a word they're saying. They might as well be talking Chinese.

Like Daphne Moon's chubby brother
(Coincidentally those people were also from Manchester mostly.)

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

I'm pretty good at imitating a variety of German accents, but yes, especially "Plattdeutsch"(sp?) is extremely hard to understand.

The spelling is correct. I'm originally from Düsseldorf, they have a relatively mild accent there. My mother is from farther up North and my father doesn't speak dialect either.

Then we moved to Saxony for three years and then once more to Munich. Both regions have rather strong dialects which I don't really care for. So even from talking people from the countryside, I might get lost in translation (I remember when I was on a visit in a city nearby, giving a talk. We had to get a projector from the janitor (the other one was broken). I couldn't understand a single word of what he was saying. Made me wish for live subtitles )

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

What's funny too, is when foreigners only learn to speak German with a heavy regional accent. Totally cracks me up.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Oh, no I didn't mean that I look down on them. It's more of a "cracks-me-up-because-it's-cute" kinda thing…

Ahhh

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Wow. Cool explanation. Thx.

Oddly enough, some English people have also told me I speak with an Irish accent. 'No idea where that comes from…maybe it is "genetic" (Irish heritage here).

I actually get that too. I've had a number of Brits tell me I sound Irish. One Londoner actually thought I was Scottish after I'd been talking to her for a couple minutes (and a Scottish guy I know who has the heaviest accent you've ever heard told me that I have a very 'mild' accent).

I've discussed it with a number of British people and the general consensus seems to be that American and Irish intonation are very similar, so if you have a more 'neutral' accent (and apparently my accent seems very neutral to Brits) it will be easy to confuse Americans and Irish. No explanation for the Scottish though. Unless it is, as you suggested, genetic, which would actually explain the Russian too.

[villalobos]

To add to this interesting discussion, I found that spending time learning a foreign language in the country it is spoken is the only way to go. Also it teaches you about your own language, making you aware of the melody and rythm. While living in a foreign country, I can easily recognize people speaking my native language just by hearing the melody of the talk, while not actually being able to understand the words.

Finally, the freakiest experience of the whole immersion process is to start dreaming in a foreign language. It is a required step that happened to me twice : it is a very good sign, albiet unsettling the first time it happens.

Oh yeah, I have not got rid of my native accent in spite after 11 years. I gave up on that. OTOH, I have been told I had an american accent when speaking my native. Oh well.

[moodymonster]

I'm English and get confused for Australian

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Oh, no I didn't mean that I look down on them. It's more of a "cracks-me-up-because-it's-cute" kinda thing…

Yeah, chicks dig my accent. "aaawwwwwwwwwwwww"

[- - e r i k - -]

I get the "Are you Irish?" a lot down here too. No idea why though.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by villalobos

Finally, the freakiest experience of the whole immersion process is to start dreaming in a foreign language. It is a required step that happened to me twice : it is a very good sign, albiet unsettling the first time it happens.

Only twice? I dream in English a lot.
Since I still use English the majority of the day, I continue to dream and think in English. One of the first dreams of that kind was after two months in the States: people from Germany and the States mixed and everybody spoke their native language. Much to my amazement, they could understand each other (it came naturally to both of them)

Personally, I find English easier to use when talking about research and certain experiences and I have a tendency to mix German and English. Quite often, I find myself talking in one language and there is an exact word I want to use in the other language (usually emotions or figures of speech).

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

I'm English and get confused for Australian

Depends where you are - I get confused for British here, I am Australian.

[subego]

Originally Posted by villalobos

Also it teaches you about your own language, making you aware of the melody and rythm.

Though not quite what you are saying, I learned far more about English than French from taking French in high-school.

I actually had to learn all those basics I had just hot-shotted my way through when I was in grade school.

[amazing]

Having had to sit in French and German schools as a kid until I spoke the languages, and then having come back to the US for college, I can tell there's a very real US "insular spirit", similar to the insular approach to culture and language in Britain (and allegedly, Japan.) It may not be as prevalent in large cities that have cultural diversity, but it sure is overwhelming everywhere else in the heartland. Used to be called the "ugly American" syndrome, but many cultures have the exact same problem. Namely, not really understanding that other languages exist, that other cultures go with those languages, looking for American hamburgers (or democracy) all over the world, etc.

France adopted "language purity" laws (not very effective) to keep from getting submerged by Anglo words and culture--just like the US is attempting in demanding that English be the official language. American movies got such an audience that the gendarmes would be stopped on the street when making an arrest and asked why they hadn't given the Miranda rights warning. That doesn't even exist in France (where, if you're arrested, it's presumed that there was sufficent evidence for an arrest, and it's up to you to prove you're innocent.) So, the French passed laws governing how TV had to show a good percentage of French movies, how radio had to play French songs.

And yes: Both France and Germany are very monolithic in cultural matters. Everybody's got stories of the Ugly Parisian Waiter, etc. Just like everyone's got stories about the Ugly NYC Waiter.

Anyway, there's many great studies that show that learning another language leads to increased IQ. Given that US schools have a hard time teaching even English reading and writing, what does that say about us?

And if you want some laughs, google the Guignols de l'info (needs Realplayer), which is a French TV satire where the talking heads of the evening news are represented by puppets. They've got a Bush puppet, who's always accompanied by 2 Secret Service puppets that look remarkably like Sylvester Stallone. The program is a mix of Saturday Night Live and Mad TV--and they're equally hard on their own politicians. Namely interviewing Chirac about how he has to keep running for President or else he'd be in prison for graft from when he was Mayor of Paris.

Here's a great joke--which anyone who's been to Europe will love, but which middle Americans will consider politically incorrect:

A great Saint was asked, What's the difference between Heaven and Hell?

The great Saint said:

Heaven is when the English greet you,
the French cook for you,
the Germans make all your travel arrangements,
and the Italians plan all your entertainment.

Hell is when the French greet you,
the English cook for you,
the Germans plan all your entertainment,
and the Italians make all your travel arrangements.

(and if you're not laughing hysterically, you need to travel more...)

[amazing]

couple of fascinating articles on "Foreign Language Syndrome". This is when a stroke damages a particular area of the brain and the victim starts talking is a totally different accent, such as an Englishwoman speaking with a French accent. Or the more tragic case of a Norwegian woman talking with a German accent after a stroke during WWII.

BBC NEWS | Health | 'Foreign accent syndrome' explained
BBC News | HEALTH | Stroke gives woman French accent

And if you want to see a really culturally hilarious April Fool's joke, there's this video from the BBC in 1957 where they fooled the entire nation with a program about where spaghetti comes from

BBC ON THIS DAY | 1 | 1957: BBC fools the nation

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

I've also noticed myself that when I try to speak French, Japanese, or Chinese without putting much effort into my accent I tend to use a Russian accent for them.

My guess is that the human brain sort of classifies languages as 'mine' and 'foreign'. Since you and I both speak multiple 'foreign' languages it tends to group them together and so all your 'foreign' languages tend to take on similar characteristics. If one of those languages is much more strongly ingrained in your mind than the others it tends to dominate your 'foreign' language skills.

I'm American, but had a lot of french in school, as well as relatives, neighbors, etc speaking it. When I was attempting to learn Romanian, I was told I had a charming French accent. It was hard especially as some of the words are very similar, and yes there are shapes your mouth makes that don't exist in english.

[paul w]

Indeed - even though I still speak french without much of an accent, my mouth gets tired after a couple hours of French speaking these days. I'm guessing if I slacked off and tried speaking with an Americna accent it wouldn't be the case. Moral - in this case lazy and American go hand in hand.

Actually the thing with languages is they're tied to context. It's totally natural to speak French with someone I've always spoken French with. But if I were to do it with someone I've always spoken English with, my mind will scream "wrong! wrong!".

[BRussell]

One of the classic examples is the r-l distinction in among native Japanese speakers. They can neither hear it well nor speak it well. Lice=rice.

Interestingly enough, young babies can discriminate sounds from any language. So a Japanese baby could discriminate between and English r and l, but a 5-year-old Japanese could not.

[Sky Captain]

When I was in Germany, I was told my German accent was great.
Southern German but great.
When I was annoyed with Frankfurt ATC(air traffic control) I would speak with the hardest American Southern accent in German.

My Spanish I'm told I speak like a wealthy man.

[Timo]

What I don't understand is, how come British bands don't have an accent when they sing (Oasis excluded)?

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Only twice? I dream in English a lot.
Since I still use English the majority of the day, I continue to dream and think in English. One of the first dreams of that kind was after two months in the States: people from Germany and the States mixed and everybody spoke their native language. Much to my amazement, they could understand each other (it came naturally to both of them)

Personally, I find English easier to use when talking about research and certain experiences and I have a tendency to mix German and English. Quite often, I find myself talking in one language and there is an exact word I want to use in the other language (usually emotions or figures of speech).

By twice I meant in two foreign languages. I dream in English these days, and my parents have become fluent in English too, in my dreams anyways...

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by villalobos

By twice I meant in two foreign languages. I dream in English these days, and my parents have become fluent in English too, in my dreams anyways...

Ah, ok, I misunderstood.
I guess that's the price you pay for using English as your main language every day