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White House, Senate Republicans Reach Deal on Detainee Bill
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Sep 22, 2006, 09:20 AM
 
White House, Senate Republicans Reach Deal on Detainee Bill

By Deborah Tate
Capitol Hill
21 September 2006

The Bush administration and Senate Republicans have reached a deal on legislation relating to how terrorism suspects are treated and tried by the United States.

President Bush, traveling in Florida, praised the deal - which he said would preserve the Central Intelligence Agency's program to question terror suspects and create military commissions to bring terrorists to justice.

"The agreement will do what the American people expect us to do, to capture terrorists, to detain terrorists, to question terrorists, and then to try them," said President Bush.

A week earlier, the Senate Armed Services Committee had rejected the administration's plan for handling detainees, saying it would undermine the Geneva Conventions - which ensures the humane treatment of suspects, and would allow abusive interrogations and unfair trials. The panel instead approved an alternate plan offered by key Republicans - including the chairman, Senator John Warner and former prisoner of war, Senator John McCain - that would grant terror suspects greater rights.

Concerned about the appearance of their party divided on a key issue in the war on terror just six weeks before congressional elections, the White House and those key Republicans held days of intense negotiations, resulting in Thursday's deal.

Senator McCain expressed satisfaction with the compromise.

"The agreement that we have entered into gives the President the tools he needs to continue the fight in the war on terror, and bring these evil people to justice," said John McCain. "And there is no doubt that the integrity and the letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions have been preserved."

National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley told reporters the deal would put some limits on suspects' access to classified information.

That has been a key issue for House Armed Services Committee chairman Duncan Hunter.

"We are concerned most strongly with the utilization of classified information, and the utilization of that information to obtain convictions in this new type of war against a new type of enemy," said Duncan Hunter.

The agreement is now being reviewed by both houses of Congress, with action expected as early as next week.

The legislation is in response to a U.S. Supreme Court ruling earlier this year striking down the military commissions set up by the administration to try terror suspects, saying they did not comply with U.S. law and were inconsistent with the Geneva Conventions.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-09-21-voa80.cfm
The people who are fighting the war on terror can now have a clear idea of what they can and can't do. This is an example of the cooperation we need from all Americans now.
     
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Sep 22, 2006, 09:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by marden
The people who are fighting the war on terror can now have a clear idea of what they can and can't do. This is an example of the cooperation we need from all Americans now.
I agree. But we still need to look at what type of bill emerges from the full Congress, as well as whether Bush uses a signing statement to weasel out of the tricky bits, like he did with the last law that was passed regarding torture. I haven't seen the actual text of the bill yet, but if McCain, Warner, and Graham like it, then it's probably OK.
     
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Sep 22, 2006, 09:57 AM
 
Does anyone know about the specifics of the compromise?

PPC4Ever
     
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Sep 22, 2006, 10:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac
Does anyone know about the specifics of the compromise?
The specifics of what the CIA can do to when questioning terrorist will be classified. I'm sure
the the New York Time's will publish it in due course though.
     
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Sep 22, 2006, 10:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac
Does anyone know about the specifics of the compromise?
Here's a snip from the White House press briefing. Check the link for more details.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...060921-10.html
Home > News & Policies > Press Secretary Briefings

For Immediate Release
September 21, 2006

Press Briefing by Teleconference with National Security Advisor Steve Hadley

5:50 P.M. EDT

MR. HADLEY: This is Steve Hadley. I'll try and describe what we accomplished today. The work involved both the issue of Common Article III, which needed to be resolved so that the CIA program of questioning terrorists could go forward. That was addressed. We also needed to address some issues involved in the military commissions so that we would have that instrument for bringing terrorists to justice.

We addressed both of those issues. We reached an agreement that will do really two things. First, the President said that his sole standard with respect to Common Article III, so-called Common Article III, was going to be whether the CIA would be able to go forward with a program for questioning terrorists. This is a program that has been probably one of the most useful tools we've had in the war on terror, and has gotten information that has saved lives, both here at home, and saved lives on the battlefield. And it was critical for the President. As he said, the sole test will be whether this legislation will allow that program to go forward. And the good news is that the program will go forward.
     
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Sep 22, 2006, 10:07 AM
 
Thank you.

PPC4Ever
     
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Sep 22, 2006, 10:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac
Thank you.
Glad to.
     
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Sep 22, 2006, 10:28 AM
 
September 22, 2006
Editorial
A Bad Bargain

Here is a way to measure how seriously President Bush was willing to compromise on the military tribunals bill: Less than an hour after an agreement was announced yesterday with three leading Republican senators, the White House was already laying a path to wiggle out of its one real concession.

About the only thing that Senators John Warner, John McCain and Lindsey Graham had to show for their defiance was Mr. Bush’s agreement to drop his insistence on allowing prosecutors of suspected terrorists to introduce classified evidence kept secret from the defendant. The White House agreed to abide by the rules of courts-martial, which bar secret evidence. (Although the administration’s supporters continually claim this means giving classified information to terrorists, the rules actually provide for reviewing, editing and summarizing classified material. Evidence that cannot be safely declassified cannot be introduced.)

This is a critical point. As Senator Graham keeps noting, the United States would never stand for any other country’s convicting an American citizen with undisclosed, secret evidence. So it seemed like a significant concession — until Stephen Hadley, the national security adviser, briefed reporters yesterday evening. He said that while the White House wants to honor this deal, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Duncan Hunter, still wants to permit secret evidence and should certainly have his say. To accept this spin requires believing that Mr. Hunter, who railroaded Mr. Bush’s original bill through his committee, is going to take any action not blessed by the White House.

On other issues, the three rebel senators achieved only modest improvements on the White House’s original positions. They wanted to bar evidence obtained through coercion. Now, they have agreed to allow it if a judge finds it reliable (which coerced evidence hardly can be) and relevant to guilt or innocence. The way coercion is measured in the bill, even those protections would not apply to the prisoners at Guantánamo Bay.

The deal does next to nothing to stop the president from reinterpreting the Geneva Conventions. While the White House agreed to a list of “grave breaches” of the conventions that could be prosecuted as war crimes, it stipulated that the president could decide on his own what actions might be a lesser breach of the Geneva Conventions and what interrogation techniques he considered permissible. It’s not clear how much the public will ultimately learn about those decisions. They will be contained in an executive order that is supposed to be made public, but Mr. Hadley reiterated that specific interrogation techniques will remain secret.

Even before the compromises began to emerge, the overall bill prepared by the three senators had fatal flaws. It allows the president to declare any foreigner, anywhere, an “illegal enemy combatant” using a dangerously broad definition, and detain him without any trial. It not only fails to deal with the fact that many of the Guantánamo detainees are not terrorists and will never be charged, but it also chokes off any judicial review.

The Democrats have largely stood silent and allowed the trio of Republicans to do the lifting. It’s time for them to either try to fix this bill or delay it until after the election. The American people expect their leaders to clean up this mess without endangering U.S. troops, eviscerating American standards of justice, or further harming the nation’s severely damaged reputation.


Seems the Times is already laying the groundwork for it's release of classified documents.
     
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Sep 22, 2006, 01:58 PM
 
Check out this video. 14 of 14 high-value Al Qaeda goons (incl. Khaled Sheikh Mohammed) were broken with coersive techniques...
Anti-”torture” absolutists like Sullivan adamantly deny that harsh tactics produce reliable information. It’s their way of avoiding the moral dilemma presented by a ticking time-bomb scenario.

But they’ll have to face it now, because in four short minutes Brian Ross utterly explodes that particular article of quasi-religious faith as fantasy. Not only did they break Khaled Sheikh Mohammed; not only was the information he gave them valuable; not only did it save lives; but Ross’s sources include people within the CIA who are opposed to the practices.

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/2...rture-tactics/
     
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Sep 23, 2006, 08:27 AM
 
Something NO ONE has mentioned is whether we tortured North Vietnamese and Viet Cong prisoners. Is John McCain saying that he was tortured by the North Vietnamese BECAUSE we tortured N. Vietnamese prisoners? Or was he tortured despite the fact that we didn't torture the Vietnamese POW's?

I gather the implication is that we did torture POW's and Sen. McCain is saying that if we didn't torture THEIRS then we'd have the moral high ground to use as leverage to force our enemies to treat our captured men and women decently.

Would they respond? I don't know. But I guess this would be the only leverage we'd have to use against their mistreatment.

Would the value of our people POSSIBLY being treated somewhat humanely (what are THE ENEMYS' definition of humane treatment???) be worth the information we wouldn't get because we were restricted from certain forms of interrogation?
     
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Sep 23, 2006, 08:42 PM
 
We sit here and watch Americans' decapitations broadcast all over the world. Then when we hold a prisoner in a cold cell, have dogs bark at them, blast Eminem music to keep them awake all night, or have an ugly-ass woman soldier smoking cigarettes around them, we catch all the sh-t.

People want us to kiss their asses while they chop off out heads.

It's no wonder these skumbags aren't afraid of us. And until they are, we'll be fighting them off forever.

We need to score a rapid, decisive-as-all-hell victory ASAP. Screw this surgical crap. Civilians are going to die as long as the enemy hides amongst them... not to mention that every day these jerkoffs live, they kill more and more civilians themselves.

Let's blackmail these fundamentalists. Let's tell them that if they don't stop their crap, we are going to nuke Mecca. We'll do a massive PR campaign, begging and pleading for the Islamofacists to stop. Keep teeling them we'll have no choice but to nuke Mecca. And if they don't stop, nuke the damn place.

There will be no lasting peace unless there is a decisive, undeniable victory. That's the way it's always been, and there's no reason to think that it's not the case today.
     
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Sep 23, 2006, 09:48 PM
 
Yeah, nuke Mecca. That'll work.
     
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Sep 24, 2006, 12:58 AM
 
"When Devils Walk the Earth"-(A MUST READ article on how to deal with Terrorism)
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"When Devils Walk the Earth"-(A MUST READ article on how to deal with Terrorism)
Ralph Peters' book by way of the JPFO ^ | 2004 | Ralph Peters

Posted on 04/27/2004 4:17:57 PM PDT by redrock

Note: Received this from an Army friend.... Pay particular attention to item 13!

========================

HELLO TO ALL:
This essay is extracted from Ralph Peters' new book, "When Devils Walk the Earth." It is a must-read. The man is prescient. If you focus on nothing else, peruse the last point; Number 25. I added the "bold" and red color to points I thought ought to receive major emphasis.......Ed
(Ed is Major General, USA, Ret, Ed Browne)

Chapter III. Fighting Terror: Do's and Don'ts for a Superpower:
1. Be feared!

2. Identify the type of terrorists you face, and know your enemy as well as you possibly can. Although tactics may be similar, strategies for dealing with practical vs. apocalyptic terrorists can differ widely. Practical terrorists may have legitimate grievances that deserve consideration, although their methods cannot be tolerated. Apocalyptic terrorists, no matter their rhetoric, seek your destruction and must be killed to the last man. The apt metaphor is cancer: you cannot hope for success if you only cut out part of the tumor. For the apocalyptic terrorist, evading your efforts can easily be turned into a public triumph. Our bloodiest successes will create far fewer terrorists and sympathizers than our failures.

3. Do not be afraid to be powerful. Cold War-era gambits of proportionate response and dialog may have some utility in dealing with practical terrorists, but they are counter-productive in dealing with apocalyptic terrorists. Our great strengths are wealth and raw power. When we fail to bring those strengths to bear, we contribute to our own defeat. For a superpower to think small, which has been our habit across the last decade, at least, is self-defeating folly. Our responses to terrorist acts should make the world gasp!

4. Speak bluntly. Euphemisms are interpreted as weakness by our enemies and mislead the American people. Speak of killing terrorists and destroying their organizations. Timid speech leads to timid actions. Explain when necessary, but do not apologize. Expressions of regret are never seen as a mark of decency by terrorists or their supporters, but only as a sign that our will is faltering. Blame the terrorists as the root cause whenever operations have unintended negative consequences. Never go on the rhetorical defensive.

5. Concentrate on winning the propaganda war where it is winnable. Focus on keeping or enhancing the support from allies and well-disposed clients, but do not waste an inordinate amount of effort trying to win unwinnable hearts and minds. Convince hostile populations through victory.

6. Do not be drawn into a public dialog with terrorists, especially not with apocalyptic terrorists. You cannot win. You legitimize the terrorists by addressing them even through a third medium, and their extravagant claims will resound more successfully on their own home ground than anything you can say. Ignore absurd accusations, and never let the enemy's claims slow or sidetrack you. The terrorist wants you to react, and your best means of unbalancing him and his plan is to ignore his accusations.

7. Avoid planning creep. Within our vast bureaucratic system, too many voices compete for attention and innumerable agendas, often selfish and personal - intrude on any attempt to act decisively. Focus on the basic mission: the destruction of the terrorists with all the moral, intellectual and practical rigor you can bring to bear. All other issues, from future nation building, to alliance consensus, to humanitarian concerns are secondary.

8. Maintain resolve. Especially in the Middle East and Central Asia, experts and diplomats will always present you with a multitude of good reasons for doing nothing, or for doing too little (or for doing exactly the wrong thing). Fight as hard as you can within the system to prevent diplomats from gaining influence over the strategic campaign. Although their intentions are often good, our diplomats and their obsolete strategic views are the terrorist's unwitting allies and diplomats are extremely jealous of military success and military authority in their region (where their expertise is never as deep or subtle as they believe it to be). Beyond the problem with our diplomats, the broader forces of bureaucratic entropy are an internal threat. The counter-terrorist campaign must be not only resolute, but constantly self-rejuvenating in ideas, techniques, military and inter-agency combinations, and sheer energy. Old hands must be stimulated constantly by new ideas.

9. When in doubt, hit harder than you think necessary. Success will be forgiven. Even the best-intentioned failure will not. When military force is used against terrorist networks, it should be used with such power that it stuns even our allies. We must get over our cowardice in means. While small-scale raids and other knifepoint operations are useful against individual targets, broader operations should be overwhelming. Of course, targeting limitations may inhibit some efforts but whenever possible, maximum force should be used in simultaneous operations at the very beginning of a campaign. Do not hesitate to supplement initial target lists with extensive bombing attacks on nothing if they can increase the initial psychological impact. Demonstrate power whenever you can. Show; don't tell!

10. Whenever legal conditions permit, kill terrorists on the spot (do not give them a chance to surrender, if you can help it). Contrary to academic wisdom, the surest way to make a martyr of a terrorist is to capture, convict and imprison him, leading to endless efforts by sympathizers to stage kidnappings, hijacking and other events intended to liberate the imprisoned terrorist(s). This is war, not law enforcement.

11. Never listen to those who warn that ferocity on our part reduces us to the level of the terrorists. That is the argument of the campus, not of the battlefield, and it insults America's service members and the American people. Historically, we have proven, time after time, that we can do a tough, dirty job for our country without any damage to our nation's moral fabric (Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not interfere with American democracy, values or behavior).

12. Spare and protect innocent civilians whenever possible, but: do not let the prospect of civilian casualties interfere with ultimate mission accomplishment. This is a fight to protect the American people, and we must do so whatever the cost, or the price in American lives may be devastating. In a choice between them, and us the choice is always us.

13. Do not allow the terrorists to hide behind religion. Apocalyptic terrorists cite religion as a justification for attacking us; in turn, we cannot let them hide behind religious holidays, taboos, strictures or even sacred terrain. We must establish a consistent reputation for relentless pursuit and destruction of those who kill our citizens. Until we do this, our hesitation will continue to strengthen our enemy's ranks and his resolve.

14. Do not allow third parties to broker a peace, a truce, or any pause in operations. One of the most difficult challenges in fighting terrorism on a global scale is the drag produced by nervous allies. We must be single-minded. The best thing we can do for our allies in the long-term is to be so resolute and so strong that they value their alliance with us all the more. We must recognize the innate strength of our position and stop allowing regional leaders with counterproductive local agendas to subdue or dilute our efforts.

15. Don't flinch. If an operation goes awry and friendly casualties are unexpectedly high, immediately bolster morale and the military's image by striking back swiftly in a manner that inflicts the maximum possible number of casualties on the enemy and his supporters. Hit back as graphically as possible, to impress upon the local and regional players that you weren't badly hurt or deterred in the least.

16. Do not worry about alienating already-hostile populations. --(ED ADDED, "OR ANTI-WAR SENATORS ASPIRING TO BECOME PRESIDENT OF OUR GREAT NATION.")

17. Whenever possible, humiliate your enemy in the eyes of his own people. Do not try to use reasonable arguments against him. Shame him publicly, in any way you can. Create doubt where you cannot excite support. Most apocalyptic terrorists, especially, come from cultures of male vanity. Disgrace them at every opportunity. Done successfully, this both degrades them in the eyes of their followers and supporters, and provokes the terrorist to respond, increasing his vulnerability.

18. If the terrorists hide, strike what they hold dear, using clandestine means and, whenever possible, foreign agents to provoke them to break cover and react. Do not be squeamish. Your enemy is not. Subtlety is not superpower strength but the raw power to do that, which is necessary, is our great advantage. We forget that, while the world may happily chide or accuse us-or complain of our inhumanity-no one can stop us if we maintain our strength of will. Much of the world will complain no matter what we do. Hatred of America is the default position of failed individuals and failing states around the world, in every civilization, and there is nothing we can do to change their minds. We refuse to understand how much of humanity will find excuses for evil, so long as the evil strikes those who are more successful than the apologists themselves. This is as true of American academics, whose eagerness to declare our military efforts a failure is unflagging, or European clerics, who still cannot forgive America's magnanimity at the end of World War II, as it is of unemployed Egyptians or Pakistanis. The psychologically marginalized are at least as dangerous as the physically deprived.

19. Do not allow the terrorists sanctuary in any country, at any time, under any circumstances. Counter-terrorist operations must, above all, be relentless. This does not necessarily mean that military operations will be constantly underway sometimes it will be surveillance efforts, or deception plans, or operations by other agencies. But the overall effort must never pause for breath. We must be faster, more resolute, more resourceful and, ultimately, even more uncompromising than our enemies.

20. Never declare victory. Announce successes and milestones. But never give the terrorists a chance to embarrass you after a public pronouncement that the war is over.

21. Impress upon the minds of terrorists and potential terrorists everywhere, and upon the populations and governments inclined to support them, that American retaliation will be powerful and uncompromising. You will never deter fanatics, but you can frighten those who might support, harbor or attempt to use terrorists for their own ends. Our basic task in the world today is to restore a sense of American power, capabilities and resolve. We must be hard, or we will be struck wherever we are soft. It is folly for charity to precede victory. First win, then unclench your fist.

22. Do everything possible to make terrorists and their active supporters live in terror themselves. Turn the tide psychologically and practically. While this will not deter hard-core apocalyptic terrorists, it will dissipate their energies as they try to defend themselves and fear will deter many less-committed supporters of terror. Do not be distracted by the baggage of the term assassination. This is a war. The enemy, whether a hijacker or a financier, violates the laws of war by his refusal to wear a uniform and by purposely targeting civilians. He is by definition a war criminal. On our soil, he is either a spy or a saboteur, and not entitled to the protections of the U.S. Constitution. Those who abet terrorists must grow afraid to turn out the lights to go to sleep.

23. Never accept the consensus of the Washington intelligentsia, which looks backward to past failures, not forward to future successes.

24. In dealing with Islamic apocalyptic terrorists, remember that their most cherished symbols are fewer and far more vulnerable than are the West's. Ultimately, no potential target can be regarded as off-limits when the United States is threatened with mass casualties. Worry less about offending foreign sensibilities and more about protecting Americans.

25. Do not look for answers in recent history, which is still unclear and subject to personal emotion. Begin with the study of the classical world, specifically Rome, which is the nearest model to the present-day United States. Mild with subject peoples, to whom they brought the rule of ethical law, the Romans in their rise and at their apogee were implacable with their enemies. The utter destruction of Carthage brought centuries of local peace, while the later empire's attempts to appease barbarians consistently failed!
     
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Sep 24, 2006, 02:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak
We sit here and watch Americans' decapitations broadcast all over the world. Then when we hold a prisoner in a cold cell, have dogs bark at them, blast Eminem music to keep them awake all night, or have an ugly-ass woman soldier smoking cigarettes around them, we catch all the sh-t.
Better watch it, you'll get Kronos on your tail.
     
   
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