[Kerrigan]

Politics has become so mean spirited in this decade. While it isn't entirely Bush's fault, it does have an awful lot to do with his poor communication skills and his inability to smooth over whatever crises come our way.

Overall, this is what I'm tired of:

-people chanting "Pope must die!"
-Chavez spewing idiotic invective at the UN
-Ahmadinejad saying that holocaust never happened, and people actually listening to him
-Rove saying that Democrats are cooperating with Al Quaeda
-Every thread here turning into a fight over Christianity/Homosexuality

Is this the "Culture Wars" running off the rails?

Is this the much hyped "Clash of East and West"?

Or is this simply the new state of politics that we'll have to put up with in the 21st century?

[marden]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Politics has become so mean spirited in this decade. While it isn't entirely Bush's fault, it does have an awful lot to do with his poor communication skills and his inability to smooth over whatever crises come our way.

Overall, this is what I'm tired of:

-people chanting "Pope must die!"
-Chavez spewing idiotic invective at the UN
-Ahmadinejad saying that holocaust never happened, and people actually listening to him
-Rove saying that Democrats are cooperating with Al Quaeda
-Every thread here turning into a fight over Christianity/Homosexuality

Is this the "Culture Wars" running off the rails?

Is this the much hyped "Clash of East and West"?

Or is this simply the new state of politics that we'll have to put up with in the 21st century?

I agree the time has come to stop it or at least start toning it down. If we HAD to depend on each other, such as rednecks and black nationalists in Viet Nam sometimes had to depend on each other in combat, we would do it.

Well, the time is fast approaching when we have to.

[Spliffdaddy]

What you're seeing is the death of mainstream news media.

Not long ago there were only a handful of media outlets which tended to offer the same news from the same point of view. They had considerable power in creating an environment where certain ideologies were able to get their message across - while conflicting ideologies were largely silenced and ignored.

Until recently there was no public debate because only one side of any given issue was ever reported. Dissenting opinion didn't have an outlet at the national level.

Disagreement has always existed. You just never heard both sides.

The internet, conservative talk radio, alternative news outlets like FOX news, and basically just a shrinking world have played major roles in changing the status quo.

Yes, Virginia, there has always been rabid disagreement in this country. And there always will be. Apparently it works. The USA hasn't self-destructed.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

What you're seeing is the death of mainstream news media.

Not long ago there were only a handful of media outlets which tended to offer the same news from the same point of view. They had considerable power in creating an environment where certain ideologies were able to get their message across - while conflicting ideologies were largely silenced and ignored.

Until recently there was no public debate because only one side of any given issue was ever reported. Dissenting opinion didn't have an outlet at the national level.

Disagreement has always existed. You just never heard both sides.

The internet, conservative talk radio, alternative news outlets like FOX news, and basically just a shrinking world have played major roles in changing the status quo.

Yes, Virginia, there has always been rabid disagreement in this country. And there always will be. Apparently it works. The USA hasn't self-destructed.

And because it's more apparent it has a greater effect. Does a tree falling in the woods make a noise if no one hears it? Maybe not. But if it falls on CNN, Fox, MSNBC, CNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, and the BBC, yes. It makes a noise and is amplified and distributed and dissected like you say.

And it has more of an effect than the tree falling unobserved or with only 3 networks covering it, IMO.

[Kerrigan]

I remember back during George I's reign, the "Arab street" was cheering him at every stop during his victory tour of the Middle East. That is entirely unimaginable now, a mere 15 years later.

Like you said, the world is shrinking thanks to globalization, and everyone is getting anxious about it. I think that has a lot to do with the high level of anti-US sentiment.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I remember back during George I's reign, the "Arab street" was cheering him at every stop during his victory tour of the Middle East. That is entirely unimaginable now, a mere 15 years later.

Like you said, the world is shrinking thanks to globalization, and everyone is getting anxious about it. I think that has a lot to do with the high level of anti-US sentiment.

Part of it is just misperception of what the US always was but they never realized it because the wrong provocations were never there. Adversity REVEALS character and characteristics previously hidden.

Part of it is because of Bush's actions and inactions, reasonable or not.

Part of it is just the circumstances.

Part of it is due to the foreign governments continually demonizing the USA for their own shortcomings.

People: "We don't have enough food!"

Government: "It's the Americans' fault."

Part of it is that some people and groups want the USA to fall and will use any opportunity to exploit the rift that we have allowed to become so severe.

Imagine a head of state coming here and insulting our President if he hadn't gotten the message that his words would be well received. It is the result of all the hatred WE have directed at him. WE were responsible for sending a message to the world that we would welcome Chavez and his message. WE were responsible for sending the message that we would cut and run when al Qaeda attacked us.

WE have become useful to those who want to kill or weaken or hurt or conquer and enslave us.

WE have become our own worse enemy.

[invisibleX]

And here I was thinking marden was a sane one. Sigh. I can't even find two people in any given thread that aren't going on about our "enemies" trying to "enslave" us.

I do have to agree that whatever destroys the US will come from within. I don't think this will happen within our life-times, or our great grand-childrens, but it likely will.

[Kerrigan]

You'd be surprised how quickly it could happen, though. Britain was riding high with unprecedented wealth and power right up until WWI, and then in the space of the 40 years it went from being the mightiest empire in the world to being like a bombed out third world country.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by invisibleX

And here I was thinking marden was a sane one. Sigh. I can't even find two people in any given thread that aren't going on about our "enemies" trying to "enslave" us.

I do have to agree that whatever destroys the US will come from within. I don't think this will happen within our life-times, or our great grand-childrens, but it likely will.

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero
(106-43 B.C.) Roman Statesman, Philosopher and Orator
42 B.C.
Source: Speech in the Roman Senate

The United States has already started falling apart from within. Hate to be a doomsday prophet, but every great government collapses due to the same thing - mankind's never ending quest for power, especially on the individual level. The United States, which I love dearly, may be seeing the first signs of its inevitable destruction, which might take another 100 or 200 years...but it will happen.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

The United States has already started falling apart from within. Hate to be a doomsday prophet, but every great government collapses due to the same thing - mankind's never ending quest for power, especially on the individual level. The United States, which I love dearly, may be seeing the first signs of its inevitable destruction, which might take another 100 or 200 years...but it will happen.

Now now, don't say that. All this American-down-the-toilet talk will give Spliff a stroke.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by invisibleX

Now now, don't say that. All this American-down-the-toilet talk will give Spliff a stroke.

However, he would likely agree with me on what the source of the trouble is. I'm just trying to keep that out of this particular thread.

[marden]

Originally Posted by invisibleX

And here I was thinking marden was a sane one. Sigh. I can't even find two people in any given thread that aren't going on about our "enemies" trying to "enslave" us.

I do have to agree that whatever destroys the US will come from within. I don't think this will happen within our life-times, or our great grand-childrens, but it likely will.

Ever been sucker punched? Do you think Jackie Chan is ever sucker punched?

What's the difference? He understands vulnerabilities and knows his strengths and weaknesses.

Chavez comes here insults Bush and gives away millions of $$ in oil for fun?

No.

What do you know about Venezuela or Chavez? Ask yourself "what does he want or need, what is his possible gain?"

What does he discuss with Fidel? Why does Fidel love Chavez? What do Chavez and Ahmeddinejad have in common that they are so chummy?

If I wanted to attack somebody here I would find their old foe and current enemies and ask them questions and if possible work out a general agreement to cooperate. I would devise a plan. I would test the plan and debug it. I would refine it and put the final touches on it and then I would wait until the time was to my advantage.

Chavez talks with Fidel, the old foe of the USA and the new foe of the USA, Ahmad. He comes here and tests his plan and sees that he has support from our people. All that's left is to debug and refine the plan and then wait until the time is right.

When it happens you'll remember this post.

It's funny that everbody talks about how 9/11 could have been prevented with the information we had in the various law enforcement agencies. But thinking like yours, no offense, is what keeps people from using information to stay safe. When someone tells you where you have a weakness it's not an emotional pronouncement. It's a fact. When you read enough books you can often guess the ending as you are reading it.

If you don't read much you might not spot the signs.

I spend time thinking about this stuff and I don't know everything but I'm here to tell you he is exploiting our weakness and widening a gap between the haves and the have nots here. And he's not like I was as a teenager when I was caught doing something dumb and when asked why I did it, said, "I dunno."

He knows what he's doing. Just because you can't spot the signs doesn't mean there's no plan afoot.

Sep. 16, 2006 4:22
Ahmadinejad to meet with Venezuela's Chavez Sunday
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
CARACAS, Venezuela

Iran's president makes his first visit to Venezuela on Sunday, seeking to strengthen ties with a government that has become a leading defender of his nation's nuclear ambitions.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said that he and Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez are like "brothers" in a great global struggle, and Chavez promises to advocate for Iran's nuclear program if he wins a rotating seat on the U.N. Security Council in a vote next month.

Chavez has said Venezuela "will stand together with Iran at all times and under any conditions," accusing the US of planning to invade Iran.

"I ask for full support for the government and the people of Iran in developing their sovereign right to move forward with (nuclear) research," Chavez said at the Havana summit on Thursday. "It's part of the formula of the future - nuclear energy. We aren't talking about atomic bombs."

Ahmadinejad to meet with Venezuela's Chavez Sunday | Jerusalem Post

Saturday, July 29, 2006

Trench Mates and Brothers, Chavez & Ahmadinejad Meet in Iran

Hugo stopped in Iran today to pledge his country's support to Iran:

"I feel I have met a brother and trench mate after meeting Chavez," Ahmedinejad was quoted as saying by state-run television. "We think Iran and Venezuela should share all experiences of each other, stay by each other and they have to be supporters of each other."
Chavez also signed an Anti-American pact with the Belarus dictator Lukashenko earlier in the week.

Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez, center, visits with Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, left, and Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei in Tehran, Iran, Saturday, July 29, 2006. (AP Photo/Miraflores Press, Marcelo Garcia)

With visits to the last dictator in Europe and the mullahs in Iran, Hugo still found time to hawk toothpaste in his free time.

Here is a must read by Douglas MacKinnon in the Boston Herald on the useful American useful idiots lining up to back the dangerous communist dictator of Venezuela.

Gateway Pundit: Trench Mates and Brothers, Chavez & Ahmadinejad Meet in Iran

Here's an example of someone who understands the worldwide geopolitical situation better than most. Notice at the end of this piece where he gives us a clue that this relationship would develop further. How did he know this? Because he has greater knowledge and experience than some of us do. And what he said has come true.

That was July 2005.

Monday, July 04, 2005
Chávez Congratulates Ahmadinejad

Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez Frías called Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whom he had met before when he visited Iran, and congratulated him on his landslide victory:
Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez congratulated his Iranian counterpart President-elect Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's landslide victory in a telephone conversation, arguing, "Your high vote secured Iran's legitimacy at international scene." Expressing his delight over President-elect Ahmadinejad's victory, Chavez added, "My government is determined to continue Venezuela's comprehensive cooperation with Iran."

The Venezuelan leader meanwhile considered the expansion of bilateral ties as a need, and asked for reviewing the two countries' already signed agreements and seeing into their proper implementation as a mutual necessity.

He added, "I would be glad to dispatch to Tehran a high ranking Venezuelan delegation to attend your excellency's Oath Taking Ceremony."

According to the report by president elect's office, Ahmadinejad, too, in the phone talk appreciate President Chavez for his kind congratulation contact, adding, "My government would continue the Islamic Republic's basic policy in expansion of relations with Venezuela, as a friend and brother nation."

Dr. Ahmadinejad meanwhile invited President Chavez to visit Iran in near future to exchange viewpoints on bilateral and international issues.

The Iranian president elect emphasized, "Your excellency's state visit to Tehran would mark a turning point in our two nations' relations, and accelerate the process of the reached agreements' implementation." ("Chavez: Ahmadinejad's Landslide Victory Secured Iran's Legitimacy Worldwide," Islamic Republic News Agency, 28 Jun. 2005)
Closer cooperation between Caracas and Teheran did not begin with Ahmadinejad's election, since it had long been part of Chávez's efforts to diminish Venezuela's dependence on the United States as its primary energy export market (e.g., Andy Webb-Vidal, "Venezuela Enlists Iran to Steer Oil to China," Financial Times, 31 Jan. 2005), diversify its trade partners (e.g., "Iran and Venezuela Sign Contracts Valued at the Equivalent of over US$1 Billion," VHeadline.com, 11 Mar. 2005; "Iran-Venezuela-Exports: Tractor Parts Shipped to Venezuela, Sunday," VHeadline.com, 18 Apr. 2005; and "Iran-Venezuela-Trade: Iran, Venezuela Discuss Agriculture Trade," VHeadline.com, 18 Apr. 2005), and support the right of self-determination (e.g., "Chavez Backs Iran's Nuclear Goals," Al Jazeera, 12 Mar. 2005). Caracas and Teheran are said to be both price hawks when it comes to oil (Oxford Analytica, "The Geopolitical Influence on Oil Prices," Forbes, 24 Mar. 2005; and "Oil in Troubled Waters," Economist, 28 Apr. 2005), which is another tie that binds.

Nonetheless, Ahmadinejad, in terms of his economic program and base of political support, has much more in common with Chávez than Mohammad Khatami, Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, Mostafa Moin, and other elite "reformists" do with the Bolivarian revolutionary. Chávez's public salute to Ahmadinejad -- that the president elect of Iran is "a very young man who is committed to his people and struggles for sovereignty and self-determination" and that the Iranian people should be congratulated for "faith in their revolution and democracy that they have shown" -- suggests as much:
El presidente de la Republica Bolivariana de Venezuela, Hugo Chávez Frías, conversó este lunes, vía telefónica, con Mahmud Ahmadinejad, mandatario recién electo de la República Islámica de Irán.

En el acto de entrega del Premio Nacional de Periodismo, el jefe de Estado saludó públicamente al presidente electo de Irán, "y lo voy a hacer a nombre de todo el pueblo venezolano", dijo al referirse a Ahmadinejad como "un hombre muy joven y comprometido con su pueblo y por las luchas por la soberanía y la autodeterminación".

El mandatario venezolano conoció al actual presidente iraní en la última visita oficial que realizó a Teherán, cuando inauguró la Plaza Bolívar en esa ciudad, para entonces Ahmadinejad era el alcalde de la capital iraní.

"Aprovecho para felicitar al pueblo iraní y a la demostración que han dado de fe en su revolución y en su democracia", agregó Hugo Chávez al señalar el respeto que tiene al modelo de gobierno iraní, porque "nadie puede exigirles que adopten otro sistema democrático, como el norteamericano, por ejemplo". (emphasis added, Prensa Presidencial, "Venezuela saluda al nuevo presidente de Irán," 28 Jun. 2005)

Watch how their relationship will develop.

Critical Montages

They are exploiting the people in Jawbone 54's fine quote. That's why I lay into certain attitudes expressed here. We can't stop the expressions but we can make those expressions more unpopular so that no one hears them and repeats them thinking they are cool.

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero
(106-43 B.C.) Roman Statesman, Philosopher and Orator
42 B.C.
Source: Speech in the Roman Senate