[marden]

Originally Posted by voodoo

The Waco cult was nothing close to being Christian. They were abominations and heretics. Burning was their fate, in this world or the next.

V

Correct.

They were extremists and just because Koresh knew the Bible didn't mean he was a man of God in the sense that we should have praised him. I believe that we have allowed the radicals among us, such as the Timothy McVeigh's (who cited Waco as a reason for his bombing the Murrah Building in OKC) to steer us toward a position that doesn't serve us or God well or at all.

The government believed Koresh was guilty of many crimes, weapons violations and child abuse among them.

Koresh manipulated his followers to defend HIM on the premise that the government was attacking ALL of them, which wasn't true.

They were gullible and manipulated and misled. Fatally so.

If he was a real man of God he would have saved his flock when he could have.

[Spliffdaddy]

So what *exactly* was David Koresh & the Branch Davidians legally accused of doing?

[Kevin]

It doesn't really matter what he did. What happened should not have happened the way it did. And the administration lied about a lot of it.

The same thing with Ruby ridge.

Hillary had a hard on for testing America's reaction to disarming people. That is what this was all about.

The tests failed miserably.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

So what *exactly* was David Koresh & the Branch Davidians legally accused of doing?

Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas: Prosecutions

XIV. Prosecutions
A. Introduction

The Waco crisis began with ATF's attempt to arrest and prosecute Koresh for firearms violations. Following the ATF raid, the prosecutive focus shifted to-building cases against any Branch Davidians who were responsible for killing and wounding ATF agents, or attempting to do so, during the two shootouts on February 28. The prosecutors also decided to keep the original firearms charges open as well, in the event that Koresh or any of his followers who had violated the firearms statutes surrendered to the authorities.
As discussed above, at the same time the FBI was handling the standoff negotiations, the United States Attorney's office in Waco (and its parent office in San Antonio), working largely with the Texas Rangers, concentrated on preparing its cases. In addition, as described above, the Justice Department intervened in early April, while the negotiations were was ongoing, to resolve differences of opinion that had arisen between the Assistant United States Attorney in Waco and his boss, the United States Attorney in San Antonio. The prosecution team was realigned and placed under the leadership of a different Assistant United States Attorney, who was to report directly to the Justice Department in Washington, D.C.
The discussion of the prosecutions in this report must necessarily be limited, because all the defendants are awaiting trial in the United States District Court in Waco. Given the constitutional and statutory rights of the defendants, as well as our desire not to interfere in the prosecution's presentation of its case, we are very limited in what we may discuss in this portion of the report. our discussion will describe the prosecutive efforts undertaken during the standoff and following the standoff.

[marden]

HOME: JUNE 23, 2000: NEWS

Killing the Messenger

Who's Really to Blame for the Botched Raid in Waco?

The Austin Chronicle News: Killing the Messenger: Who's Really to Blame for the Botched Raid in Waco?

[Spliffdaddy]

From what I understand the warrant the feds had was only in relation to firearms violations - and it appears the warrant was issued illegally. All the other 'allegations' were mere rumor.

from an anonymous comment I found on 'Frontline's website related to a TV special on 'Frontline'.

he had fervent, unorthodox religious beliefs

he exercised his constitutional right to bear arms

he carried on sexual relations with more than one woman

he was accused, but not convicted or even charged with committing immoral acts (in his case "child molesting"

hmmmmm...david koresh sounds a lot like thomas jefferson

[marden]

Are we going to see our mirror images on display in this thread? The Bush bashing anti-war posters will be defending the government?

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It doesn't really matter what he did. What happened should not have happened the way it did. And the administration lied about a lot of it.

The same thing with Ruby ridge.

Hillary had a hard on for testing America's reaction to disarming people. That is what this was all about.

The tests failed miserably.

Hillary? Ruby Ridge took place entirely in the Bush administration, and the Waco arrests took place within a few weeks of Clinton's inauguration. I doubt Clinton (Bill, not to mention Hillary) had much to do with it other than okaying the arrest. It would surprise me if he had even that much involvement in it. Janet Reno wasn't even in office yet.

[marden]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Hillary? Ruby Ridge took place entirely in the Bush administration, and the Waco arrests took place within a few weeks of Clinton's inauguration. I doubt Clinton (Bill, not to mention Hillary) had much to do with it other than okaying the arrest. It would surprise me if he had even that much involvement in it. Janet Reno wasn't even in office yet.

We have to always remember when we are trying to nail a president or his administration for acts or failures to act that there exists the machinery of government which largely stays put from one administration to another and even with changes in Attorney General the agents and officers and office personnel are the same.

[Spliffdaddy]

Janet Reno *was* in office during the Waco events. She approved the plans to tear gas the compound. Bill Clinton followed the Waco seige closely. When given the plans to tear gas the compound Clinton found the plan acceptable. After the fire he explained that the assault on Waco was "Reno's call".

[marden]

Without the leak to the press David Koresh could have likely been arrested and due process would have taken place without further incident.

[Spliffdaddy]

'Ruby Ridge' Timeline:

Jul 1986 Attending the World Congress of Aryan Nations near Hayden Lake, Idaho, Randy Weaver befriends a 245-pound biker by the name of Gus Magisono. In actuality, Magisono is an ATF informant by the name of Kenneth Fadeley.
24 Oct 1989 Randy Weaver sells two sawed-off shotguns to Magisono in Sandpoint, Idaho for $300.
12 Jun 1990 ATF Agents Herbert Byerly and Steve Gunderson offer to drop the weapons charges against Randy if he would agree to become an informant on the Aryan Nations. Weaver declines.
17 Jan 1991 ATF agents arrest Randy Weaver in an ambush on the Ruby Creek bridge.
18 Jan 1991 Randy Weaver is arraigned on the firearms charges. U.S. Magistrate Judge Stephen Ayers mistakenly informs Weaver: "if you're found guilty of this charge, you will probably be required to reimburse the government for the cost." He then explains that this will likely mean that the government will seize Weaver's land. He is released on bail.
22 Jan 1991 Randy Weaver receives a summons in the mail, instructing him to appear in court on March 20. Unbeknownst to Weaver, the date is a typo -- it's supposed to say February 20.
7 Feb 1991 The U.S. Attorney's Office in Boise receives a threatening letter from Vicki Weaver, addressed to "The Queen of Babylon."
20 Feb 1991 Randy Weaver fails to appear in court, and the judge declares him a federal fugitive.
21 Aug 1992 At 4:30am, a heavily-armed six-man U.S. Marshals "SOG" team sneaks onto the Weaver property for reconnaissance. A few hours later, two people are shot dead in a firefight: Marshal William Degan and Randy's son Sammy Weaver.
22 Aug 1992 FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi blows off the head of Randy's wife Vicki while she is standing in the cabin doorway holding their 10-month-old baby in her arms. It takes her at least 30 seconds to finally die, in plain sight of the sniper.
24 Aug 1992 FBI negotiator Fred Lanceley plies some psychological warfare by shouting out "Good morning, Mrs. Weaver! We had pancakes this morning. And what did you have for breakfast? Why don't you send your children out for some pancakes, Mrs. Weaver?"
28 Aug 1992 Colonel Bo Gritz is sent to negotiate with the Weavers.
30 Aug 1992 Colonel Bo Gritz returns to the cabin with a body bag to fetch the corpse of Vicki Weaver.
31 Aug 1992 Bo Gritz finally convinces Randy Weaver to surrender, averting a full-out assault scheduled for later that day.
15 Aug 1995 For $3.1 million, the United States government settles the lawsuit filed by the Weaver family for the wrongful death of Vicki Weaver. Speaking on the condition of anonymity, an official from the Department of Justice later tells the Washington Post that if the case had gone to trial, the family would probably have won $200 million.
19 May 1996 CBS television airs its made-for-TV movie Ruby Ridge: An American Tragedy, starring Randy Quaid and Laura Dern.
30 Oct 1996 Former FBI section chief E. Michael Kahoe pleads guilty to obstruction of justice. In doing so, Kahoe admits instructing a subordinate to destroy all outstanding copies of an internal "after-action" report on the Ruby Ridge incident, despite having previously agreed to hand it over to the Justice Department.
21 Aug 1997 A county prosecutor in Bonner's Ferry, Idaho indicts Kevin Harris for murder and FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi for manslaughter.
13 Aug 1999 Randy Weaver tells a gun show audience in Kingsport, Tennessee that the federal government is planning to declare martial law no later than January 1, 2000. "I think the government will declare martial law at the first of the year, probably before the first of the year. I think they know they're going to have problems with Y2K and they're going to have riots in the streets if the power goes out in the big cities. Man is about five minutes away from becoming a savage."

[marden]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

'Ruby Ridge' Timeline:
13 Aug 1999 Randy Weaver tells a gun show audience in Kingsport, Tennessee that the federal government is planning to declare martial law no later than January 1, 2000. "I think the government will declare martial law at the first of the year, probably before the first of the year. I think they know they're going to have problems with Y2K and they're going to have riots in the streets if the power goes out in the big cities. Man is about five minutes away from becoming a savage."
[/i]

And let's look at what this could have meant.

The FBI anti-terrorist team, as portrayed in ABC-TV's Path to 9/11, was shown to have barely averted terrorist violence scheduled for New Years Eve Y2K.

So, if there HAD been a terrorist attack and the government actually DID have a problem, the people who identify with Weaver and his cause might have reacted to the valid need of the law enforcement authorities to maintain order in light of the terrorist violence by creating MORE of a problem.

These survivalists and gun show fans of Weaver would have said, "by golly old Randy was right! We need to attack the government!"

And what is that an exact replica of?

Years before the invasion Osama bin Laden said the USA was going to come to the Middle East as occupiers and would subjugate all of the Muslims and make them convert to Christianity.

So when the US invades Iraq the Muslims in the region said to themselves, "by golly old Osama was right! We need to attack the occupiers!"

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Janet Reno *was* in office during the Waco events. She approved the plans to tear gas the compound. Bill Clinton followed the Waco seige closely. When given the plans to tear gas the compound Clinton found the plan acceptable. After the fire he explained that the assault on Waco was "Reno's call".

The final assault. I was referring to the original arrest attempts on firearms charges. Kevin suggested it was Hillary's idea because she liked to take people's guns away.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

'Ruby Ridge' Timeline:

Right, it was over before Clinton.

[marden]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Right, it was over before Clinton.

I'm starting a new political party.

The Petty Partisan Politikkers.

Want to join?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Right, it was over before Clinton.

I didn't mean to imply that Clinton was to blame.

The main culprit in both Ruby Ridge and Waco was Lon Horiuchi (try a google search).

Louis Freeh also played a major role.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Janet Reno *was* in office during the Waco events. She approved the plans to tear gas the compound. Bill Clinton followed the Waco seige closely. When given the plans to tear gas the compound Clinton found the plan acceptable. After the fire he explained that the assault on Waco was "Reno's call".

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by BRussell

The final assault. I was referring to the original arrest attempts on firearms charges. Kevin suggested it was Hillary's idea because she liked to take people's guns away.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. HIllary did indeed have curiosities on how the public reacted to the gov doing such a thing.

She was very anti-Gun. And had it majorly pushed during the 90s.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I think you misunderstood what I meant. HIllary did indeed have curiosities on how the public reacted to the gov doing such a thing.

She was very anti-Gun. And had it majorly pushed during the 90s.

What I find interesting is the uproar over wire-tapping international calls to suspected terrorist organizations, but firebombing a compound of US citizens here in the US... meh, just the hard work of the go'ment.