[besson3c]

The list of people once close to Bush who are now speaking out and criticizing things he has done, ignoring or blowing off warnings, or not heeding their advice is really growing... Here is my list of esteemed former Republican politicians or other important figures who have thrown up some red flags:

- Colin Powell
- Bob Woodward
- Richard Clarke
- Michael Brown
- John McCain
- The retired generals (added)

Have I missed anybody?


I'm sure the Republicans in here will have some snappy retorts and unkind names to assign to these people, but I'm just sort of privately wondering how many red flags need to be thrown up before you guys start to rethink whether this administration really has your best interests at heart?

[BlueSky]

Don't forget the retired generals.

I was disgusted with Woodward when he took the prez seriously enough to write "Bush at War". My faith in him is partially restored, but I'm watchin' my back.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

Don't forget the retired generals.

I was disgusted with Woodward when he took the prez seriously enough to write "Bush at War". My faith in him is partially restored, but I'm watchin' my back.

New Woodward Book Says Bush Ignored Urgent Warning on Iraq - New York Times

[Spliffdaddy]

Where have you been hiding? In a cave?

Those guys have *never* agreed with the Bush Administration.

It has nothing to do with the war on terror.

Not every Republican is a staunch Republican. The same is true of Democrats.

PS, Colin Powell is a liberal Democrat. How do you figure he's a righty turncoat?

I expect more from you, besson3c. This is a lame thread.

"Growing list of dissenters"???

Dude. It's the same list that's existed since 1987

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by besson3c

New Woodward Book Says Bush Ignored Urgent Warning on Iraq - New York Times

Yeah, that's the partially restored faith part. Great title too, bet it made Bush a bit cranky.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Where have you been hiding? In a cave?

Those guys have *never* agreed with the Bush Administration.

It has nothing to do with the war on terror.

Not every Republican is a staunch Republican. The same is true of Democrats.

PS, Colin Powell is a liberal Democrat. How do you figure he's a righty turncoat?

I've heard with my own ears Colin Powell defend Bush's war decisions, and several other decisions. Ditto for John McCain.

Read that Woodward article I posted. I keep on hearing about all of this internal tension in the Whitehouse - people calling for Rumsfeld's canning, people having difficulty with Rice, obviously Clarke's stance (don't forget, he worked under Reagan).

I don't know what's going on, but it seems like the party is falling apart, and people are appearing out of nowhere to testify on some of these rifts and demonstrated incompetencies/mistakes/oversights.

[besson3c]

I wonder whether it is really true that H. Bush didn't think that invading Iraq was a hot idea... I've heard this on a few occasions too.

[Spliffdaddy]

You should stop depending on mainstream news media. They're making you look uninformed.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

You should stop depending on mainstream news media. They're making you look uninformed.

Yeah besson, might be better to rely on the Staunch Republican Media.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

You should stop depending on mainstream news media. They're making you look uninformed.

What are your sources of news?

To save yourself the embarrassment, please do not try to claim that Fox news is a good alternative to this mainstream news media bias you speak of.

[Spliffdaddy]

There's a reason Democrats haven't been winning elections.

I bet you don't have any idea what that reason might be.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

There's a reason Democrats haven't been winning elections.

I bet you don't have any idea what that reason might be.

How about answering the question?


(a line of questioning that is part of your rhetoric).... this is a distraction though. Is your intent to find something to feel righteous about, or to have a genuine conversation?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

There's a reason Democrats haven't been winning elections.

I bet you don't have any idea what that reason might be.

Is it the same reason Republicans weren't winning elections before Democrats weren't winning elections?

[Spliffdaddy]

YES!

Voters rejected the ideology of Republicans - just like they've rejected Democrats for the last decade.

The difference was that the Republicans blamed themselves, then fixed their problems.

The Democrats just keep blaming everything *but* themselves.

[BlackGriffen]

You missed John DiIulio, famous for calling them "Mayberry Machiavellis" not too long in to the administration.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Dude. It's the same list that's existed since 1987

With all the nasty crap going on in Canada, you'd think besson would be more concerned with starting at home first.

Yet, I never see him making threads about anyone of the sort.

Odd.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

There's a reason Democrats haven't been winning elections.

I bet you don't have any idea what that reason might be.

The right keeps stealing elections of course.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

The Democrats just keep blaming everything *but* themselves.

Read above.

[marden]

Originally Posted by BlackGriffen

You missed John DiIulio, famous for calling them "Mayberry Machiavellis" not too long in to the administration.

He left the White House before 9/11 and disavowed any knowledge of those statements.

So what we have are what we call "rumors."

And it's old news rumors that no one has bothered with until you went digging through the Bush basher's garbage dump.

[Kevin]

13 Dem presidents, and 21 Republicans give or take a few (I know we have more presidents, but some were neither)

Over the last few years..

36 Lyndon Baines Johnson, 1963-69 (Democrat)

37 Richard Milhous Nixon, 1969-74 (Republican)

38 Gerald Rudolph Ford Jr , 1974-77 (Republican)

39 James Earl Carter, 1977-81 (Democrat)

40 Ronald Wilson Reagan, 1981-89 (Republican)

41 George Herbert Walker Bush, 1989-1993 (Republican)

42 William Jefferson Clinton, 1993- 2001(Democrat)

43 George W. Bush, 2001- (Republican)


Seems to be going Republic, Republican, Democrat, Republican, Republican, etc

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'm sure the Republicans in here will have some snappy retorts and unkind names to assign to these people, but I'm just sort of privately wondering how many red flags need to be thrown up before you guys start to rethink whether this administration really has your best interests at heart?

Vomit = Throw up

- Colin Powell - Lost the feud with Rummy and was forced out/resigned. His criticsm = pound of flesh.
- Bob Woodward - Was scandalously criticized for book complimenting the Bush Admin. To get back in the good graces of the liberal literati (as well as to play both sides of the fence and get their money!) he wrote a book critical of the White House.
- Richard Clarke - He's not been so critical.
- Michael Brown - besson3c were you praising Brownie after Katrina or did you recently jump on his bandwagon? hahaha
- John McCain - Running for President and needs crossover votes.

And as for the Generals, they are not perfect. Lincoln fired how many of them before he found his U.S. Grant?

[itai195]

Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

There's a reason Democrats haven't been winning elections.

I bet you don't have any idea what that reason might be.

Ah. I see. It's the usual Republican strategy. Instead of talking about the discussion at hand, make a snide unrelated remark about liberals. We're glad you have a really big e-penis. Only that's the wrong body part to be using in politics.

(Yes. Go ahead. Make a Bill Clinton remark. We know you want to.)

[marden]

Originally Posted by itai195

Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill

You telling me he got a government job after he quit baseball?



Don't forget to mention these guys, too.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by marden

Vomit = Throw up

- Colin Powell - Lost the feud with Rummy and was forced out/resigned. His criticsm = pound of flesh.
- Bob Woodward - Was scandalously criticized for book complimenting the Bush Admin. To get back in the good graces of the liberal literati (as well as to play both sides of the fence and get their money!) he wrote a book critical of the White House.
- Richard Clarke - He's not been so critical.
- Michael Brown - besson3c were you praising Brownie after Katrina or did you recently jump on his bandwagon? hahaha
- John McCain - Running for President and needs crossover votes.

And as for the Generals, they are not perfect. Lincoln fired how many of them before he found his U.S. Grant?

Why should we take Colin Powell's criticism of what was going on *at the time* lightly? He is held in very high esteem. It's not like he is making up stuff after the fact, what he accounts for in his book is apparently stuff he had difficulty with during his entire time during Bush's first administration.

As far Clarke, are you kidding me? He's been highly critical of the Bush administration's response to terror. Read his book.


Marden, a lot of these people have been making some of the same points you were so impressed with in that thread you created about Republics and Democrats united about an alternative strategy (or whatever it was called). This administration needs to change the way it thinks about its enemy, and do things differently.

I also hope that not only will they take these sort of recommendations, but that they'll shut up and stop politicizing everything... I'm so sick of this issue, I feel it is entirely overrated.

Heh, a man can dream, can't he?

[itai195]

Originally Posted by marden

You telling me he got a government job after he quit baseball?

I really hope you are joking. If so, yeah, I thought it was funny at first too.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I've heard with my own ears Colin Powell defend Bush's war decisions, and several other decisions. Ditto for John McCain.

Read that Woodward article I posted. I keep on hearing about all of this internal tension in the Whitehouse - people calling for Rumsfeld's canning, people having difficulty with Rice, obviously Clarke's stance (don't forget, he worked under Reagan).

I don't know what's going on, but it seems like the party is falling apart, and people are appearing out of nowhere to testify on some of these rifts and demonstrated incompetencies/mistakes/oversights.

They're trying to save their asses, but I can't blame them. I heard McCain on the radio yesterday and he was talking about how important the environment is and how dangerous global warming is! ... sounds like he is going to run for pres.

[goMac]

News came out today... Apparently Powell was fired by Bush for dissenting.

[marden]

Originally Posted by itai195

I really hope you are joking. If so, yeah, I thought it was funny at first too.

Let's see if you can use the clues to arrive at the answer.

marden knows who Yankee Paul Oneill is; a great but non-marquis name, retired player.

marden follows politics.

marden probably knows the general age of a retired baseball player.

marden probably knows the general age of a U.S. Cabinet member.

marden probably knows how to use Google and if he had a question about a factual matter would be able to find the facts pretty readily.

But to look at what evidence there might be to support the opposite conclusion.

marden...I can't fathom any reasons to support the contrary conclusion.

Can you?

[itai195]

Yes, marden is a little weird

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by itai195

Yes, marden is a little weird

Jimmy likes his style.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by besson3c

The list of people once close to Bush who are now speaking out and criticizing things he has done, ignoring or blowing off warnings, or not heeding their advice is really growing... Here is my list of esteemed former Republican politicians or other important figures who have thrown up some red flags:

- Colin Powell
- Bob Woodward
- Richard Clarke
- Michael Brown
- John McCain
- The retired generals (added)

Have I missed anybody?


I'm sure the Republicans in here will have some snappy retorts and unkind names to assign to these people, but I'm just sort of privately wondering how many red flags need to be thrown up before you guys start to rethink whether this administration really has your best interests at heart?

Not that I'm denying that there is dissent or saying there shouldn't be, but if you are going to make an argument, you need to get your facts straight.

Only ONE of the people on your list has ever been "close to" President Bush, and that's Powell, who served in the administration.

McCain is a supporter of the President to this day, as far as I know. Criticizing some of the details of the way the President has handled things does not mean he has "flipped" and supports the point of view that you support.

To put Michael Brown on your list is kind of funny, considering a year ago, the left was out there blasting him as being incompetent when he was running FEMA.

Richard Clarke worked with the administration, but also served three others. He's a bureaucrat who worked at the State Department, not a politician associated "closely" with President Bush.

Bob Woodward is a journalist who once brought down a President and wants to re-live his glory days. How you ever got the idea he was "close" to Bush, I don't know.

I don't think the war effort has been perfect, but it's a heck of a lot easier for people who have no responsibility for the consequences to criticize the people who are responsible.

It's easy to be an armchair quarterback and yell at your TV that you would have punted after someone goes for a 4th and 1 and fails. But the coach has to worry about calling the right defensive plays to try to win the game despite things going wrong. It can't be rewound and there aren't any "do-overs."

The good news is we are in a very close game. And there is plenty of time on the clock. We might need to make some new or different play calls, but we can still win the game. Leaving the playing field would be a bad decision.

[Nicko]

I'm begining to think its an American rite of passage to 'tell-all' when non-disclosure agreements expire. Frankly I think its a good policy

*the bookdeals, live interviews, and other media whoring are just perks.