[red rocket]

BERLIN (Reuters) - A German judge on Friday fined the seller of a range of anti-neo Nazi t-shirts and badges because the products bear the infamous swastika symbol -- with a large red line through it.

The logo -- a red circle with a line across it superimposed on the Nazi emblem -- is a popular image among left-wing activists and anti-neo Nazi campaigners in Germany and can be purchased on lapel-pins and items of clothing.

However, Wolfgang Kuellmer, a Stuttgart judge, ruled on Friday that its increasing popularity risked making the Nazi hooked cross acceptable again in Germany, over 60 years after it was outlawed following Hitler's defeat.

"In particular this mass market business risked undermining its taboo status," Kuellmer said.

Under German law, performing a Hitler salute, wearing Nazi uniform or displaying the swastika can carry a penalty of a fine or up to three years in prison.

The 32-year-old distributor, who ran a mail order service and website, was fined 3,600 euros. The judge ordered the seizure of 16,500 pieces of merchandise, two palettes of brochures and around 8,400 publicity flyers bearing the logo.

Green party member of parliament, Claudia Roth, herself once investigated by the Stuttgart authorities for wearing an anti-Nazi lapel pin, said the ruling was unjustified.

"This ruling is scandalous," she said. "It is a form of autism which completely ignores the real problems of right wing extremism, anti-semitism and racism in this country."

The logo, reminiscent of that used in the 1984 film Ghostbusters, is often seen at anti neo-Nazi rallies such as those held to protest against the far-right National Democrat Party's (NPD) election gains in recent regional polls in the formerly communist east of the country.

The NPD's gains renewed calls from some politicians to consider banning the party, which has been likened to Hitler's embryonic Nazi party.

Reuters article.

Discuss.

Personally, I find this completely retarded.

[Millennium]

As far as I can tell, this has been considered acceptable in Europe due to some philosophical variant of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis: if they can prevent people from seriously thinking and discussing Nazi philosophy, Nazism will disappear because no one will be able to conceive of it. It's rather like the Christian Right's crusade to ban sex and violence from television in the US.

I find this to be not only abominable, but laughable: it can't possibly work, and even trying will only do more harm than good by driving it underground. But this is what happens when real free speech isn't guaranteed.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Millennium

As far as I can tell, this has been considered acceptable in Europe due to some philosophical variant of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis: if they can prevent people from seriously thinking and discussing Nazi philosophy, Nazism will disappear because no one will be able to conceive of it. It's rather like the Christian Right's crusade to ban sex and violence from television in the US.

I find this to be not only abominable, but laughable: it can't possibly work, and even trying will only do more harm than good by driving it underground. But this is what happens when real free speech isn't guaranteed.

The comparison with the Christian Right is quite silly. There is quite a loaded history in Germany regarding the use of the Svastika. You can argue that not preventing hate speech allowed the ascension of Hitler to power. I think applying the american way to a country like Germany is not necessarily the right thing to do.

There is not real free speech in ANY country on this earth anyways.

[subego]

Originally Posted by villalobos

You can argue that not preventing hate speech allowed the ascension of Hitler to power.

Go ahead. I'm listening.

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by Millennium

As far as I can tell, this has been considered acceptable in Europe due to some philosophical variant of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis: if they can prevent people from seriously thinking and discussing Nazi philosophy, Nazism will disappear because no one will be able to conceive of it. It's rather like the Christian Right's crusade to ban sex and violence from television in the US.

I find this to be not only abominable, but laughable: it can't possibly work, and even trying will only do more harm than good by driving it underground. But this is what happens when real free speech isn't guaranteed.

Well said

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Millennium

As far as I can tell, this has been considered acceptable in Europe...

Europe? No, just a few countries in Europe. Other than that, I agree completely. Good post

V

[ghporter]

Think about the results of "thought prevention" as depicted in Bradbury's "Farenheit 451." It doesn't work.

However, it has long been illegal to even display a swastika anywhere in Germany, in any context. So how is it surprising that someone gets busted for doing that, even with an international "not" across it?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Millennium

As far as I can tell, this has been considered acceptable in Europe due to some philosophical variant of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis: if they can prevent people from seriously thinking and discussing Nazi philosophy, Nazism will disappear because no one will be able to conceive of it. It's rather like the Christian Right's crusade to ban sex and violence from television in the US.

I find this to be not only abominable, but laughable: it can't possibly work, and even trying will only do more harm than good by driving it underground. But this is what happens when real free speech isn't guaranteed.

Yes, you cannot beat them by regulations and rulings, only by education.

Originally Posted by villalobos

The comparison with the Christian Right is quite silly. There is quite a loaded history in Germany regarding the use of the Svastika. You can argue that not preventing hate speech allowed the ascension of Hitler to power. I think applying the american way to a country like Germany is not necessarily the right thing to do.

No, it isn't. The symbol is used in a way that makes the intention rather clear. Also it incriminates many, many people from various backgrounds (in particular many faithful Christians who are often rallying on anti-Nazi demonstrations). These stickers and T-Shirts have been worn for years and years already with no complaints whatsoever. To circumvent the ruling, people have replaced the swastika with the work `swastika' -- which continues to be legal.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Think about the results of "thought prevention" as depicted in Bradbury's "Farenheit 451." It doesn't work.

However, it has long been illegal to even display a swastika anywhere in Germany, in any context.

That is incorrect.

It could always be displayed in a documentary context, and in a satirical context. It had to be commented, though - much like "Mein Kampf", which is illegal unless excerpted and commented.

I think this decision is among the more bizarre, and I'm sure it will not go uncontested - several members of parliament have already come forth and charged themselves with the same "crime".