[freudling]

Any thoughts?

[Kevin]

[Tomchu]

It's not racism if it's true.

I'm from Vancouver, and what you said is all pretty much true -- but I wouldn't dare shoot my mouth off about it in public, because you get all the people who don't understand the issues simply brushing you off as just another racist.

What I want to know is why it's a bad thing for white people to make racial observations, but perfectly okay for anyone else of any other race to do so.

[freudling]

Tomchu:

Those are valid points.

[Kevin]

BTW my picture wasn't a serious accusation.

[freudling]

Kevin:

Funny pic.

[nonhuman]

I don't get it. What's wrong with having lots of asians in your country? Is it just that you feel uncomfortable being surrounded by people who are 'different'?

[jopoy]

I agree with nonhuman. What is wrong with being surrounded by "different" people? Why does it trouble you?

[lpkmckenna]

I live in Toronto. I don't know a single person who is worried about this "issue."

"Canada is fast becoming a multi-cultural wasteland"

[D. S. Troyer]

Could be worse. They could have been Muslims.

I live in a smaller city (30,000+) in Ontario which is maybe 98 percent white and never go near Toronto anymore, it's like Dodge City.

[- - e r i k - -]

Poor baby, afraid of the Asians. You stay in that white neighborhood of yours so you won't get beaten up.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Poor baby, afraid of the Asians. You stay in that white neighborhood of yours so you won't get beaten up.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

It's not racism if it's true.

I'm from Vancouver, and what you said is all pretty much true -- but I wouldn't dare shoot my mouth off about it in public, because you get all the people who don't understand the issues simply brushing you off as just another racist.

What I want to know is why it's a bad thing for white people to make racial observations, but perfectly okay for anyone else of any other race to do so.

I would consider people of other races racist for bitching about all the white people around, too.

Seriously, just chill out and enjoy all the hot Asian chicks. End of story.

[hyteckit]

Damn those white folks coming to my neighborhood, making us Asian folks minorities. It sucks being a minority. White men showing their gut and white women showing their sagging boobies. They are taking up spaces in our universities and have no respect for the Asian culture, dragging the big dirty shoes when entering my home. These white folks are poor drivers and yelling profanities in English. They push their way through on the bus, demands to sit in the front, and have no respect for the elderly by offering their seats. These white folks are like bees or more accurately are like roaches, infesting our neighborhood with their own white ways, no wanting to speak Chinese and keep on insisting on speaking & writing English.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by freudling

Tomchu:
I don't like the fact that, so many people at a conscious level must admit that there are truths out there that are labelled racist but fail to take the next step and commit to accepting it and accepting others who talk about it.

What is it exactly that you fear so much? Ok, so Canada is becoming less "white" and eurocentric, but other than that, what else? What?

I lived in central BC for a few years where the population is what you could call mostly "white" ....they were also really racist (kind of like the deep south of the US). I also lived in Victoria while going to uni and while most of the population there is mostly still white, there are increasinly more asians, and other nationalities.

I see no evidence that multi-culturalism is in trouble in Canada, unlike in Europe.

So, where is your evidence, other than your own xenophobia?

Atleat pic a better example than Vancouver, it's been rated consistantly as the best city in the world!

[kmkkid]

I am worried, only because I have no attraction to anyone of asian descent Plus gay asians tend to stick to their own group.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Nicko

What is it exactly that you fear so much? Ok, so Canada is becoming less "white" and eurocentric, but other than that, what else? What?

I think he was looking for the sympathy vote from Americans who're up in arms about immigration policy in general. He might've garnered more support if he were to complain about Mexicans. Instead, he gets racist pictures from Kevin.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Instead, he gets racist pictures from Kevin.

ewww, well that doesn't help anyone does it?

[PB2K]

??? i don't get the point

i have been to vancouver in august 2005, i really loved to see how so many cultures mixed together, especially asians. asians are usually quite small people, but in vancouver they were buff my asian girlfriend was also very amazed, she wanted to live in that city too. to us the asians were just part of the city.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Instead, he gets racist pictures from Kevin.

Yeah racist pictures...
I am such a horrible racist.

Only those looking to get offended are.

[probablecause]

Originally Posted by Nicko 

What is it exactly that you fear so much? Ok, so Canada is becoming less "white" and eurocentric, but other than that, what else? What?

I lived in central BC for a few years where the population is what you could call mostly "white" ....they were also really racist (kind of like the deep south of the US). I also lived in Victoria while going to uni and while most of the population there is mostly still white, there are increasinly more asians, and other nationalities.

I see no evidence that multi-culturalism is in trouble in Canada, unlike in Europe.

So, where is your evidence, other than your own xenophobia?

Atleat pic a better example than Vancouver, it's been rated consistantly as the best city in the world!

There's nothing wrong with a little diversity as long as its managed well. However, masses of immigrants from a single ethnic group is not "diversity". If you're trying to float your economy by bringing in younger immigrants to support older retirees in a socialist government, Canada should try to vary the immigration population a bit more with other ethnicities.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by probablecause 

There's nothing wrong with a little diversity as long as its managed well. However, masses of immigrants from a single ethnic group is not "diversity". If you're trying to float your economy by bringing in younger immigrants to support older retirees in a socialist government, Canada should try to vary the immigration population a bit more with other ethnicities.

Why should it be managed? Just let it grow organically.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by probablecause 

There's nothing wrong with a little diversity as long as its managed well.

Actually, I think the "management" of "diversity" is the whole problem. It's ethnic aggregation rather than ethnic segregation, but whether you include or exclude based on race, you're still making race-based decisions in an issue where race should have no bearing.

In situations where race has no meaning (most situations in general), diversity is only good if it is allowed to grow organically. The moment you make any attempts to "promote" or "discourage" it, you've gone off the path.

[Mithras]

Oh man, live in the planet Earth for a change. Think of it this way -- you're getting foreign travel, for free! If you can let down your guard a little, you might find it exhilarating rather than getting "frustrated, alone, anxious, & depressed" over encountering people of other ethnicities.

All the great trading hubs of history have been multiethnic & polyglot. Imagine living in ancient Rome, or Athens, or Timbuktu, or Marseilles, or Alexandria.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Seriously, just chill out and enjoy all the hot Asian chicks. End of story.

This needed to be quote again. Mostly because I was running for the printer yesterday and I would say the hottest Asian chick I've ever seen bumped in front of me. I'm quite taken, but thoughts of infidelity were distressingly close in my mind....

Originally Posted by probablecause

Canada should try to vary the immigration population a bit more with other ethnicities.

Hyuck. Well, on the other side of the Pacific is a place I like to call "Asia," more specifically "Oriental and/or Far-East Asia," more specifically "home of a freakin' huge number of people." If they come to Canada, it's quite logical that the West Coast is the first place they'll see, hmmmm? Unless you think we shouldn't let people in without telling them where to live? "Hmmmm....we've already got enough Japanese in Vancouver...you're gonna have to go to Calgary, ok?" Yeah, that'll go over well.

In other news, other areas of Canada have plenty of immigrant diversity. The Praries are well known for the East European/German population, and Toronto is hailed - rightly or wrongly - as one of the most multicultural cities in the world.

Conclusion: Lebanese/Middle Eastern food is so good it makes me orgasm. 'Nuff said.

greg

[Railroader]

To the OP: If you're really concerned about this, maybe you should be asking the Native Americans how they feel about people "immigrating into" their land.

I think this only becomes an issue if people are forced out. No one is forcing anyone out of the various cities in Canada. It's simply a changing of the demographic landscape. Very similar to the US where ethnic groups are moving into concentrated groups and creating a "comfort zone" of their own. I don't agree with this thinking as I would think that if I were to go to a country for it's beliefs and ideas then I would try to assimilate myself as much as possible.

Perhaps they are just so driven to get where they think it will be better and when they get there they realize it isn't, that they try to create a society of what they left. I am not a sociologist, but I do find some of what they study interesting such as these issues.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

To the OP: If you're really concerned about this, maybe you should be asking the Native Americans how they feel about people "immigrating into" their land.

Exactly; probably the best sentence of the thread. How utterly hypocritical to scream about all these "non-white/English people" coming into your country when your current position was built on the death, exploitation, rape and murder of the half-million original inhabitants of Canada.

greg

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Exactly; probably the best sentence of the thread. How utterly hypocritical to scream about all these "non-white/English people" coming into your country when your current position was built on the death, exploitation, rape and murder of the half-million original inhabitants of Canada.

greg

What freudling and others are complaining about doesn't even pale in comparison. It's all about perspective.

[probablecause]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

Actually, I think the "management" of "diversity" is the whole problem. It's ethnic aggregation rather than ethnic segregation, but whether you include or exclude based on race, you're still making race-based decisions in an issue where race should have no bearing.

In situations where race has no meaning (most situations in general), diversity is only good if it is allowed to grow organically. The moment you make any attempts to "promote" or "discourage" it, you've gone off the path.

Why shouldn't decisions on immigration policy not be based on race? Race is a large component of immigration policy and you're saying it should be ignored? Large numbers of people from one ethnic group is not "diversity". Smaller groups of people from a variety of ethnic groups is. Due to the apparent "organic" growth in Vancouver, the OP has started to develop a bias against a large and increasingly insular group of people. This is the result of organic diversity. A more controlled immigration policy results in less racism not more.

You can't tell me there aren't a lot of Russians, Mexicans or Eastern Europeans from ex-communist states who wouldn't jump at the chance to live and work in Canada. You want diversity let some of those people in too.

[Monique]

There has been Asians in Vancouver since the inception of Canada, since they have been used as slave labor to build the railways.

These were offensive comments coming from a racist ignorant guy.

[probablecause]

Originally Posted by Monique 

There has been Asians in Vancouver since the inception of Canada, since they have been used as slave labor to build the railways.

These were offensive comments coming from a racist ignorant guy.

Sadly, Asians were used practically as slave labor to build railways--true. However, that was then, this is now.

Now we need slave labor to work in meat processing plants. That's soooo much better eh?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by probablecause

You can't tell me there aren't a lot of Russians, Mexicans or Eastern Europeans from ex-communist states who wouldn't jump at the chance to live and work in Canada. You want diversity let some of those people in too.

They're already there. Go farther east.

greg

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by probablecause 

Why shouldn't decisions on immigration policy not be based on race? Race is a large component of immigration policy and you're saying it should be ignored? Large numbers of people from one ethnic group is not "diversity". Smaller groups of people from a variety of ethnic groups is. Due to the apparent "organic" growth in Vancouver, the OP has started to develop a bias against a large and increasingly insular group of people. This is the result of organic diversity. A more controlled immigration policy results in less racism not more.

The OP's racist views are based upon xenophobia, ignorance, and laziness. NOT Canada's immigration policy.

Originally Posted by probablecause 

You can't tell me there aren't a lot of Russians, Mexicans or Eastern Europeans from ex-communist states who wouldn't jump at the chance to live and work in Canada. You want diversity let some of those people in too.

There's a good sized Russian community in Toronto.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Immigration is out-of-control in Canada. Anybody here from Vancouver that wants to chime in? Statsitically, I have read from many sources that we have 45% Asians in the Greater Vancouver Regional District. That is projected to become 50% within a couple of years. Then, accounting for all the rest of the immigrants (Vancouver), like East Indians, Koreans... Whites are now the minority. And you feel it on the streets everyday.

It is not a nice feeling. Many main streets where people live in the burbs and downtown Vancouver are littered with Chinese signs, some only in Chinese. That is not even touching on the third largest Chinatown in North America, Vancouver's Chinatown. Vancouver is unequivocally one big Chinatown. I read of chinese moving out of the distict of Richmond because there were too many Asians there!

This is totally far gone in my opinion. I also know that I am not alone in this. Many people are concerned about the immigrant population in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. Canada is fast becoming a multi-cultural wasteland where white Canadians feel like foreigners in the big cities. At least our small cities and towns are not gone. The result seems to be that people like myself feel frustrated, alone, anxious, depressed... Where do WE fit in anymore. There are no easy answers because it is a multi-cultural society, that people do NOT integrate into Canada, they just move here and but keep their original cultural perspective. What does that mean? Bee hive sworms of Chinese on the streets playing with their pink cell phones; taking up most of UBC; not knowing how to drive; pushing you out of the way on the bus...

Also, any Americans visit Vancouver and what are you thoughts...

I think your opinion is pathetic.

Oh! You are now a "minority"! Railroader brought an excellent point about how First Nations and Inuit feel about being a minority in their own ancestral land!

You are one immigrant yourself freudling, and you were certainly one of the "undesired" flavors of the day.

Appreciate their presence, make a move to make them accountable about what is expected of them now that they are here.

And I am not sure we have an immigration "problem" in Montreal. In fact, all we ask from immigrants is to learn to speak French, which is not so bad a request from the host country.

[Doofy]

The only major problem I can see with regard to Vancouver and "Asians" is that human cloning is illegal. And I'm thinking "Kristen Kreuk factory" here.

Relax. Start to get worried when a big bunch of Ba'al worshippers turn up on your doorstep and demand you change your laws to suit them.

[freudling]

Valid also.

[Mithras]

Yes, well, it is the ethnic makeup of your region. You live on the Pacific Rim. Populations flux over time. I guess what some of us are saying is, "either enjoy it, or don't, but understand that it is normal and inevitable and part of the historical process of populations, so you're better off figuring out how to enjoy it."

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by freudling 

As for the Asians, it is undeniable that there are too many in Vancouver to call it diversity or multiculturism. There are 45% Asians in the GVRD. If that does not seem staggering to you then I don't see the point of continuing with my comments.

The facts:

"For the eighth consecutive year, China and India were, respectively, the first and second leading countries of origin for new immigrants to Canada. In 2005, China accounted for 16% of immigrants (42,291) and India, for 13% (33,146). The Philippines (17,525) and Pakistan (13,576) were the third and fourth source countries, accounting for seven percent and five percent of immigrants respectively."

My concerns, specifically are: whites are now the minority; East Indians, Asians... are not integrating; they are involved in major crime, like this:

Welcome to the Now

I don't want to be a minority in a big city in my own country.

Okay... I'm completely and utterly confused? You keep exclaiming that you are worried about being a minority. Why is that a bad thing? Does being in the majority imply you are better? If there are more Asians that whites then the Asians are somehow at an advantage and you a disadvantage? That doesn't say much for your society now does it? That would imply that presently the minority populations are second class citizens and are not afforded the same privileges as the majority. You must realize how much you sound like the white Americans of the deep south 50 years ago.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by freudling 

My concerns, specifically are: whites are now the minority; East Indians, Asians... are not integrating; they are involved in major crime, like this:

Welcome to the Now

This mention of crime is a legitimate concern — but it's the first one you've brought up, and quite a different issue from not wanting to be outnumbered by another race. You haven't really shown that there's much of a link other than the fact that you don't like Asians and you don't like crime.

Honestly, this sounds a lot like American xenophobia from the early half of the last century.

Originally Posted by freudling 

I don't want to be a minority in a big city in my own country.

That's too bad. Somebody has to be — it may as well be you. I would prefer not to be a member of the most distrusted group in my country, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

[freudling]

You make good points.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I don't want to be a minority in a big city in my own country.

I've seen some stupid things in this place before and this comment ranks in the top 5.

Awww... poor little white man. All alone in a big city. Sheesh. Move to Finland if you want to be surrounded by white people.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by freudling 

There are so many issues that revolve around a country where, literally within a few decades, white people are becoming the minority in larger centers in Canada. If that doesn't concern you as a citizen, then good for you. But people like Chuckit, I assume you are just arm chair critics, not having to wake up each day and live in such a place.

I think Chuckit is Asian and wouldn't have a problem living in Vancouver.

[Mithras]

Yeah, what could somebody living in San Diego possibly know about the mingling of cultures?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by freudling 

There are so many issues that revolve around a country where, literally within a few decades, white people are becoming the minority in larger centers in Canada. If that doesn't concern you as a citizen, then good for you. But people like Chuckit, I assume you are just arm chair critics, not having to wake up each day and live in such a place.

Hmmm... the minority population in my county is 2%. That's ALL minorities non-white. I am half hispanic and my dad is full hispanic. My grandmother talks of times when there where places she wasn't allowed to shop or enter because she wasn't white. And we're talking Michigan here. But you know what, she's not bitter in the least. She just speaks matter of fact about it.

"Arm chair critics" my ass.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by freudling 

As for the Asians, it is undeniable that there are too many in Vancouver to call it diversity or multiculturism. There are 45% Asians in the GVRD. If that does not seem staggering to you then I don't see the point of continuing with my comments.

I don't want to be a minority in a big city in my own country.

There's always been minority situations in Canada...even since Confederation. Our diverse immigration laws and tendency of immigrants to group in certain places make this relatively common.

Ever been on Bathurst street in Toronto? You'll probably be a minority - to Jews, or perhaps Russian Jews, depending on where you are. How about Jane? Welcome to the the black neighbourhood - my (Jewish, fyi) girlfriend is currently doing her teaching practicum in the area, at a school where she figures there might be 20 "white" students out of a few hundred. Or how about my high school in Brampton, where Indian/Middle Eastern/Black ethnic origins were certainly far and away a majority? I moved there straight from small-town Newfoundland, man - the only non-whites was one Chinese family, and they owned the Chinese Take-Out!

Enjoy it. That is all I have to say.

greg

[DLQ2006]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Exactly; probably the best sentence of the thread. How utterly hypocritical to scream about all these "non-white/English people" coming into your country when your current position was built on the death, exploitation, rape and murder of the half-million original inhabitants of Canada.

greg

You can bet that if the Natives of North America had not been conquered, that North America today would not be jam-packed with immigrants from all over the world. The Native Americans were not inclusive people. They put up a fierce fight against all outsiders and even tribes belonging to the same linguistical family fought and killed each other over territory. If not for the embracing qualties of those immigrants coming since the slaughter of the Native Americans, there would be far more Asians in Asia right now, Africans in Africa, Latinos in Latin America, Middle-easterners in the Middle-east, as well as Europeans in Europe.

I love how the open borders advocates always bring up the Native Americans to back up their position. Have they ever once considered that just about every current nation can trace its history to some initial act of aggression by factions of people fighting other factions for territory? Most countries are not inhabited with only indigenous people (except for a few pockets in Africa). Those that were conquered were also conquerers who engaged in such practices as slavery, cannibalsim, and human sacrifice with their enemies. Just maybe back when everyone was a bit more barbaric, it was the most sophisticated at fighting who triumphed, not the ones most brutal because everyone was brutal. We see the same phenomenon going on in Africa today, just on a more primative level. Just maybe these things can be chalked up to human social evolution, not American evolution.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by DLQ2006 

You can bet that if the Natives of North America had not been conquered, that North America today would not be jam-packed with immigrants from all over the world. The Native Americans were not inclusive people. They put up a fierce fight against all outsiders and even tribes belonging to the same linguistical family fought and killed each other over territory.

Oh God. I don't even know where to start.

You are _completely and totally ignorant_ about Native American (both North and South) culture. Seriously.

Not inclusive people? Are you serious?? The American Indian?!? If that is so, why were "whites" able to move so freely around Eastern North America for the first few years of contact, until Indians started to die in droves? Why was Cortés allowed to live in Tenochtitlan for an extended period of time before he decided to kidnap (and then kill) the Aztec emperor?! Why did the Incan emperor Atahuallpa cordially treat and talk to and leave unharmed Pizarro's little group, only to be captured (and later, horribly killed) unarmed at a parleé with 40-thousand of his troops nearby?

You know what? You like books? I've got a fascinating one for you. It's called Stolen Continents, by Ronald Wright. (The subtitle is "500 Years of Conquest and Resistance in the Americas" here in Canada, but it seems to be different in the States.) Do you want to find out how little you know? Here's a good start. Enjoy it.

Frankly, I'm almost offended.

greg

[Spliffdaddy]

well damn.

I was just going to drop in and congratulate the original poster for creating a thread about Canada that had enough interest to yield 2 pages of responses. Yet, I look around and the topic has drifted to the good ol' USA.

Oh well. Maybe in my lifetime I'll witness a 2 page Canada-centric thread.

[freudling]

Spliffdaddy:

You make some good points.

[DLQ2006]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Oh God. I don't even know where to start.

You are _completely and totally ignorant_ about Native American (both North and South) culture. Seriously.

Not inclusive people? Are you serious?? The American Indian?!? If that is so, why were "whites" able to move so freely around Eastern North America for the first few years of contact, until Indians started to die in droves? Why was Cortés allowed to live in Tenochtitlan for an extended period of time before he decided to kidnap (and then kill) the Aztec emperor?! Why did the Incan emperor Atahuallpa cordially treat and talk to and leave unharmed Pizarro's little group, only to be captured (and later, horribly killed) unarmed at a parleé with 40-thousand of his troops nearby?

You know what? You like books? I've got a fascinating one for you. It's called Stolen Continents, by Ronald Wright. (The subtitle is "500 Years of Conquest and Resistance in the Americas" here in Canada, but it seems to be different in the States.) Do you want to find out how little you know? Here's a good start. Enjoy it.

Frankly, I'm almost offended.

greg

Maybe I got the idea about how inclusive they were is because for many years before the European immigrants came over, rival tribes had been killing each other. Didn't the Pawnee tribe war against the Arapoho, Sioux, and Cheyenne? Wasn't there tribal warring going on between many of the various tribes? If they killed each other in competing for land and resources, why would they welcome European immigrants also competing with them? There are stories of some tribes working with European immigrants and other stories about those that did not at all take kindly to the homesteaders and fought with them immediately.

I'm not justifying what the white settlers did. They were obviously brutal. What I am saying is that I do not believe that the Native Americans in general were just handing over their territories to the Europeans and they also were brutal towards their enemies. As much as the Native Americans respected the environment, I doubt very seriously that they would have allowed their country to become as over-populated as this country is today. I think that they probably decided it was time to end European immigration about the same time that the Europeans started to take over. They weren't successful in fighting them off, but I do think they tried and not just from the instinct of survival.

For those tribes that didn't resist occupation of their country, it's ironic that they ended up losing their country because of that. Why should we now make that same mistake they did? If history being replete with injustices is grounds for nations today not being allowed to have borders, national security, and self-determination regarding the preservation of the environment, culture, and economic prosperity, then the vast majority of countries have no such rights. Are the 300 million people living in the U.S. today supposed to just open up all the borders completely and allow our population to swell to a few billion because afterall...........we know what happened to the Native Americans? Should the millions of Canadians just hand over Canada to as many Asians that can fit in the country because afterall............we know what happened to the Natives? At some point, immigration needs to be based on the realities of today, not the past.