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goMac · Oct 16, 2006, 04:09 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/16/iraq.poll/index.html

%64 of Americans do not approve of the Iraq war. Nearly the same number for people who do not approve of Bush's approval of the Iraq war.

Bush doesn't have the majority of this country behind him. It's easy to see why there is talk of the US drawing up pullout plans for Iraq.

sek929 · Oct 16, 2006, 04:14 PM

Although polls are flawed I had the honor of partying last weekend with an Officer in the US Marine Corps that graduated West Point.

We had a long discussion about how the Iraq war was a bad idea. Although he blamed the tempermental public for whipping itself into a fervor after 9/11. He said the public demanded blood, and now that they have it, they don't want it.

If nothing else it's an interesting opinion.

dcmacdaddy · Oct 16, 2006, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by sek929

Although polls are flawed I had the honor of partying last weekend with an Officer in the US Marine Corps that graduated West Point.

We had a long discussion about how the Iraq war was a bad idea. Although he blamed the tempermental public for whipping itself into a fervor after 9/11. He said the public demanded blood, and now that they have it, they don't want it.

If nothing else it's an interesting opinion.

Umm, not to burst your bubble here, but how did an officer in the USMC graduate from the service academy for the United States Army? Either he graduated from Annapolis--service academy for the United States Navy--or he is in fact an officer in the Army.
</picking nits>

Anyway, interesting view-point from the soldier/officer. Although, he is just one of many and his opinions should not be taken as indicative of the general opinion of those in his service branch or the military as a whole.

Pendergast · Oct 16, 2006, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by sek929

Although polls are flawed I had the honor of partying last weekend with an Officer in the US Marine Corps that graduated West Point.

We had a long discussion about how the Iraq war was a bad idea. Although he blamed the tempermental public for whipping itself into a fervor after 9/11. He said the public demanded blood, and now that they have it, they don't want it.

If nothing else it's an interesting opinion.

And I don't see how this gentleman could be wrong. Opinions swerve from one end to the other and how could it be different? If we were to allow a total democracy, i.e. where any political decisions woud be the object of a vote, I doubt there would be any functional long term plans in anything.

Polls are interesting for what is intended to be measured, not for policy. Politicians seeking the pulse of the nation do so always to align themselves and get political gains. But this is where democracy turns into a lie: since the opinion is based on a short-term perception of events, politicians used that short-term span of attention to gain points.

But in the end, no one wins in this compromise. Of course, I don't see a solution to that.

Back on the topic related to Iraq, Bush is stuck. Retiring from Iraq endangers his plan (and his place in history) and yet, he has no choice but to go along the opinion of Iraqis and americans, especially if these polls show an increase % of opinions supporting a disengagement. If in 6 months more polls show a similar distribution of opinions from both samples (americans and iraqis)... I guess the Republicans will be in a severe heap of trouble...

Ron Goodman · Oct 17, 2006, 05:50 AM

I'd say his place in history is pretty secure, as one of the worst presidents we've ever been stuck with. He makes Nixon look good.

ebuddy · Oct 17, 2006, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by Pendergast

And I don't see how this gentleman could be wrong. Opinions swerve from one end to the other and how could it be different? If we were to allow a total democracy, i.e. where any political decisions woud be the object of a vote, I doubt there would be any functional long term plans in anything.

Polls are interesting for what is intended to be measured, not for policy. Politicians seeking the pulse of the nation do so always to align themselves and get political gains. But this is where democracy turns into a lie: since the opinion is based on a short-term perception of events, politicians used that short-term span of attention to gain points.

A good example of this when a major Al Qaeda operative is captured or killed. In theory, this should have no bearing on your support or opposition to an entire action, but it seems poll numbers like these fluctuate 5% favorable when they do.

Back on the topic related to Iraq, Bush is stuck. Retiring from Iraq endangers his plan (and his place in history) and yet, he has no choice but to go along the opinion of Iraqis and americans, especially if these polls show an increase % of opinions supporting a disengagement. If in 6 months more polls show a similar distribution of opinions from both samples (americans and iraqis)... I guess the Republicans will be in a severe heap of trouble...

The Iraqi PM has asked that we stay. It is critical for the relationship we've tried to build with Iraq that we not strain it immediately by leaving prematurely. I do agree that Bush is stuck however. Less than a month ago the statement was that we could have significant military presence there until 2010. Now, there's rumors of pulling out? Granted, Bush has denied this, but certainly it is beyond question that our plans are being reevaluated and rightfully so. I agree with withdrawal, but not publically scheduled and only after an awesome presence has been established for twelve straight months. I believe the Iraqi is seeing only enough US military to remind them we're there and that the work is not done, but too few to see any real progress on actions against insurgents. I believe Americans are seeing just enough death to oppose the action and not enough progress to show a potential light at the end of the tunnel.

ebuddy · Oct 17, 2006, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Umm, not to burst your bubble here, but how did an officer in the USMC graduate from the service academy for the United States Army?

I'm very curious about this too. I smell a dramatization.

Face Ache · Oct 17, 2006, 06:26 AM

America would look pretty silly if they got their arse kicked by Iraq.

sek929 · Oct 17, 2006, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Umm, not to burst your bubble here, but how did an officer in the USMC graduate from the service academy for the United States Army? Either he graduated from Annapolis--service academy for the United States Navy--or he is in fact an officer in the Army.
</picking nits>

Anyway, interesting view-point from the soldier/officer. Although, he is just one of many and his opinions should not be taken as indicative of the general opinion of those in his service branch or the military as a whole.

Well I was drinking and I'm not very military savy so my bad. He did go to West Point, so I guess Army.

Kevin · Oct 17, 2006, 06:44 AM

Is this the same large number of Americans that get bashed for thinking Iraq had something to do with 9/11?

Just checking.

Kevin · Oct 17, 2006, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by Face Ache

America would look pretty silly if they got their arse kicked by Iraq.

Well so far, that isn't even close to happening.

Kevin · Oct 17, 2006, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ron Goodman

I'd say his place in history is pretty secure, as one of the worst presidents we've ever been stuck with. He makes Nixon look good.

People said the same crap about Reagan.

Look how he is looked at now. Don't count your chickens.

ebuddy · Oct 17, 2006, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by sek929

Well I was drinking and I'm not very military savy so my bad. He did go to West Point, so I guess Army.

So you've extrapolated that he was an officer, or that he was in the Marine Corps, or that he graduated from West Point?

Is it possible that in your drunken stupor this officer/marine/graduate from West Point never actually said Iraq was a "bad idea"? After all, the military ballot has generally served the Republican party very well.

I can imagine him saying people wanted blood and now that they have it they don't want it because they lack resolve and that you simply extrapolated "iraq is a bad idea" in between throws of vomit.

Mithras · Oct 17, 2006, 08:56 AM

Whoa.

sek929 · Oct 17, 2006, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by ebuddy

So you've extrapolated that he was an officer, or that he was in the Marine Corps, or that he graduated from West Point?

Is it possible that in your drunken stupor this officer/marine/graduate from West Point never actually said Iraq was a "bad idea"? After all, the military ballot has generally served the Republican party very well.

I can imagine him saying people wanted blood and now that they have it they don't want it because they lack resolve and that you simply extrapolated "iraq is a bad idea" in between throws of vomit.

Heh, I wasn't that drunk.

He DID graduate West Point, He IS an Officer.

There WERE other people in the Marines that were attending said party.

I just got confused since I thought West Point was a Marine Academy or something, but now I know better. However, he did specifically say that he believed Iraq was a terrible idea, and he also mentioned the civilian leadership (especially Rumsfeld) as failing to address the sitaution with the seriousness it deserved. The Officer wasn't drunk, or drinking, and I only had a few beers...which of course is just the right amount for heated political discussions

marden · Oct 17, 2006, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by sek929

Well I was drinking and I'm not very military savy so my bad. He did go to West Point, so I guess Army.

United States Merchant Marine Academy

Maybe he said King's Point?

sek929 · Oct 17, 2006, 09:12 PM

Do a check on Cape Cod Merchant Marine Academies and get back to me, marden.

marden · Oct 17, 2006, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by sek929

Do a check on Cape Cod Merchant Marine Academies and get back to me, marden.

Well, if you get drunk whenever talk turns to young men in military academies I should expect you'd not need my help finding the cruise joints near you. Only the ones farther away from you with the name "Academy" and "Point."

Actually, I was trying to be helpful.

sek929 · Oct 17, 2006, 09:29 PM

The rolleyes were very helpful, thank you, back to the ignore list with you, try not to respond to me, because I won't respond to you.

marden · Oct 17, 2006, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by sek929

The rolleyes were very helpful, thank you, back to the ignore list with you, try not to respond to me, because I won't respond to you.

The rolleyes were because you could have been talking to a scout troop leader about the war for all you know.