[mac128k-1984]

Is having a National ID a bad thing,
I was reading a story on msnbc about the New federal requirements for driver's licenses and privacy groups are complaining that all of our privacy will be gone. So while it seems we are marching towards a national identication card is that bad and why.

[Big Mac]

Those standards are spelled out in a 1,767-word section of the act and require, in addition to the holder’s name, gender, date of birth and residential address, a digital photograph, “physical security features” to prevent fraud, and the ability to be accessed by “machine-readable technology.”

That doesn't sound any stricter or more invasive than the current California driver's license. This is not a national ID - it's a set of standards for state IDs. I don't think it will improve our security all that much, but I don't see anything in that article as negative, either.

[Rumor]

It's a good idea in concept, however, chances are it would be implemented incorrectly and cause a huge mess.

As it is, my id can be ran through a reader and my information pop up already.

[TETENAL]

I don't see why a document with which you can prove your identity is a bad idea.

[mac128k-1984]

I agree though I run hot and cold on these type of issues. For instance I really guard my privacy and I have my nose a little out of joint that the company I'm applying for is requiring that they do a credit check. Why??? I'm not going for a position that requires the management of money funds or accounts so any bad decisions I may have really done financially won't impact my job.

Now my credit is clean and I'm not worried but its the point that why do they need to know.

Anyways back my post, I cannot help but see that a national ID program can only help guard aganst terrorism and I suspect help against identity theft yet there are a lot of people crying foul and I'm not sure why.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

I agree though I run hot and cold on these type of issues. For instance I really guard my privacy and I have my nose a little out of joint that the company I'm applying for is requiring that they do a credit check. Why??? I'm not going for a position that requires the management of money funds or accounts so any bad decisions I may have really done financially won't impact my job.

A credit check for employment seems unfair, but it make sense from an employer's standpoint. A person with bad credit has shown an inability to meet his or her financial commitments and is therefore more likely to be a flakey employee. Checking on such things is the type of due diligence an intelligent company will do.

[chabig]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

I don't see why a document with which you can prove your identity is a bad idea.

I think the point is that we already have plenty of those.

[Rumor]

Isn't a Passport a national ID?

[Doofy]

It's a bad thing. Especially the upcoming national ID card in the UK. Reasons (mostly UK specific, but feel free to apply them to your country):

• You're gonna have to pay for it.

• You're gonna have to go sit in a dark room with some jobsworth for an hour for a "personal interview" in order to get your card. And this interview will be when and where they say it will be - if you don't turn up you'll be fined.

• If someone manages to break your ID, you're gonna feel like that chick out of "The Net".

• The UK card will have all your details on a central server. Probably running an unpatched Windows 98. Prime target for every script kiddie on the planet. To give you an idea of just how good the security will be, there's already been a number of hospitals in southern England where wardrivers have broken into the systems and changed patient details.

• Every time you do anything (like move house, etc., etc.) you're gonna have to inform central government.

Here's a question for you: Do you trust government to look after your identity better than you yourself do?

[Rumor]

Sounds like y'all are on the track of becoming something like in V for Vendetta.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

A credit check for employment seems unfair, but it make sense from an employer's standpoint. A person with bad credit has shown an inability to meet his or her financial commitments and is therefore more likely to be a flakey employee. Checking on such things is the type of due diligence an intelligent company will do.

So, all those people who've got no credit rating because they've never had a loan will be forced to eat out of dumpsters because they can't find a job?

[itai195]

My only real issue with this is I'm not convinced the cost is worthwhile. On the other hand, have you seen IDs from some of those square states? They look like I could have printed them on my inkjet.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So, all those people who've got no credit rating because they've never had a loan will be forced to eat out of dumpsters because they can't find a job?

LOL, no. No credit history is very different from bad credit. A poor credit score is garnered due to defaulting on loans. And I'm not saying people with poor credit shouldn't be able to get jobs - they definitely should, and their poor credit can be an unfair impediment to getting certain positions. But life isn't fair for many, and for others there are serious consequences for poor choices made with debt. I personally know I likely wouldn't hire a person who abused his or her credit.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

LOL, no. No credit history is very different from bad credit. A poor credit score is garnered due to defaulting on loans.

A lot a places look on no credit almost the same they do as bad though.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Sounds like y'all are on the track of becoming something like in V for Vendetta.

Yep.

Another snippet about Blair's Britain:

Thursday, knock on door. I don't answer it, since I have a policy where anyone who knocks without phoning first gets ignored. It's the gas meter inspection man. He leaves a card, saying he'll be back Tuesday morning. Fair enough. Might bother to answer the door on Tuesday morning then.

Monday, get back home and there's a threatening letter (hand delivered) in the letterbox. It's from the gas meter inspection man, upset that he can't get in. Notice that it's Monday afternoon, not Tuesday morning.

I phone the gas company, whine like there's no tomorrow. Good job I phoned, because they'd started warrant proceedings, which would give the gas meter inspection man the power to break into the house within two weeks.

Turns out that this gas meter inspection is a legal requirement, introduced by the Blair government. Yes, that's right... ...the Blair government has introduced something whereby if I'd have been on vacation I've have come back to a home which someone working for the government had broken into. It's like they expect you to stay home all year round just to answer the door to them.

So yes, it's all getting very V.

[Big Mac]

Why in the hell did they create such a requirement, Doofy? What was the rationale?

[Rumor]

Had to be done.

Originally Posted by V

"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate.

This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is it vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished, as the once vital voice of the verisimilitude now venerates what they once vilified.

However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.

The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.

Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose vis-à-vis an introduction, and so it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V."

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Why in the hell did they create such a requirement, Doofy? What was the rationale?

Funky answer: Because they're cretins* who want to micro-manage everyone's lives, basically. I don't think the word "rationale" is mentioned too often in UK government offices.

I really wouldn't be surprised if by 2008 we have to phone some government department to ask permission to go for a poop.

Serious answer: There's a major health and safety nanny state type thing going on at the moment. This appears to be part of that (as does the ID cards thing - "protecting your identity for you"). And you can't opt out. You will do what the government says.


(* Think of the absolute stupidest person you know. Then knock their IQ down 20 points. Congratulations, you've just created a UK government minister! The fact that people this stupid are proposing national ID cards should ring some warning bells.)

[itai195]

Isn't your gas meter outside your home?

That sounds like a seriously f'ed up policy though, I agree.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by itai195 

Isn't your gas meter outside your home?

It's actually in the garage in a lot of homes around here.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's actually in the garage in a lot of homes around here.

Why is that? To prevent them from being tampered with or something?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Why is that? To prevent them from being tampered with or something?

I've no idea. I think maybe it's probably partly to prevent tampering (as you say) and partly to do with space issues (i.e. nowhere else to put it).

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I've no idea. I think maybe it's probably partly to prevent tampering (as you say) and partly to do with space issues (i.e. nowhere else to put it).

What you need to do then, is rig up some mirrors and tubing, which looks at the meter. Put a light on the meter end, and a button for the light where the guy looks in outside. Now he doesn't have to bother you anymore.

[turtle777]

America is so paranoid, I can't believe it.

All the information is already available by the agencies.

Privacy in the US ? LOL.
Just look at the lack of privacy laws (as compared to Europe).

-t

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

LOL, no. No credit history is very different from bad credit. A poor credit score is garnered due to defaulting on loans. And I'm not saying people with poor credit shouldn't be able to get jobs - they definitely should, and their poor credit can be an unfair impediment to getting certain positions. But life isn't fair for many, and for others there are serious consequences for poor choices made with debt. I personally know I likely wouldn't hire a person who abused his or her credit.

According to the law you can only use a person's credit history as a criteria if it relates to the job. For instance, you can reject a candidate as a financial planner for having bad credit -- but you could not reject a candidate for bad credit who is say, a programmer or something. Besides, there are all kinds of reasons people have poor credit outside of "bad choices". Medical bills are one of the leading causes, so I guess if you made the bad choice of getting sick you're screwed.

As for national ID cards I'm against them but we will end up with them anyway. Once everyone is required to carry a card with info on it--what's to stop the abuse of such a system? Absolutely nothing. Your party affiliation, credit history, moving violations, travel history etc can all be recorded and used for purposes which are not in your best interest.

For those who think they dont mind if the government has that info because "I dont do anything wrong" keep in mind goverments change. Who knows what the prevailing political landscape will be.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck 

America is so paranoid, I can't believe it.

All the information is already available by the agencies.

Privacy in the US ? LOL.
Just look at the lack of privacy laws (as compared to Europe).

-t

Yes, but in many cases its all in different places.

[art_director]

IMO privacy advocates are way late to the party -- privacy is dead in today's world:

- Your credit card company sells your buying information

- Your cable company sells your TV viewing habits and internet suring records

- Many doctors offices sell your personal information that's not protected by law

- When you apply for a loan -- car / house / boat / etc. -- your intentions for the cash are recorded and sold

- If you have a baby your local government sells the date of birth, mother's maiden name, father's name and current street address (in MN an entire month worth of this data -- all births -- for any given county goes for $14)

- Your gas station sells your buying habits -- gas / junk food / etc.

- You video rental store sells your movie viewing habits

The list goes on and on. Clearly privacy is dead.

Security is a different story.

Over the past few months it's been proven time and again that RFID chips can be cloned from a distance -- this includes the Verichip that people can have inplanted in their bodies.

It also includes the chips in passports. The government tells us the passport has a metal cover that shields such activities but that assumes it's never opened. Any experienced traveler can tell you that to get a hotel room in many countries and to exchange money you must hand over your passport. The person you give it to will open it and could clone the information on it without you even knowing. They could also be exposing you to others in the area scanning for such information.

While ID in and of itself is not bad, this technology has the potential to make us all more vulnerable. If it's implemented poorly -- almost a certainty given the incompetence of the government -- get ready for a new wave of ID theft and fraud.

[vmarks]

In America, the Driver's License being required to have a barcode and other characteristics is not what makes it a National ID. What makes it a National ID is the information sharing between jurisdictions and the database that entails.

In the past, each state had their own means of storing it, and unless they had reciprocity agreements in place, you could be pretty sure that the information stayed with your state.

In the future if the National DOT gets their wish, the information sharing will effectively make it a national ID, though not in name. The real national ID is the passport.

[ghporter]

The problem with state issued driver's licenses is that each state sets its own standards for what goes on the license, what constitutes valid identification at the time of issue, and what is "fraud resistent". My first license in Michigan (I still remember the number 30 years later) had a 12-digit number, a photo with a seal impressed across an edge for tamper proofing, and some pretty nice fine-line details to prevent copying. When I was stationed in Mississippi and needed to upgrade to a motorcycle endorsement, the license used my Social Security number and was simplistic to say the least.

In Texas, I have to provide my index finger (or is it thumb) prints when I get a new license. Texas licenses have a number of fraud prevention features, including a holographic coating, and they've had digital pictures for a long, long time.

And U.S. jurisdictions have been sharing driver license data for a long time. By forcing all states to include a specific set of data, the Federal government is simply reducing the complications in sharing that data.

While I would not want anything like an RFID device included in my license, I think otherwise having uniform standards for basic contents of the license is not a dangerous thing. Going beyond, like adding RFID, IS BAD because that would allow tracking a person without that person's knowledge. I have not had to provide my license to anyone who did more than ensured that the name and picture matched me and the name on my credit card for a long time, but if and when I do have to give my license to someone who might scan its magnetic stripe, I'm fairly certain that a lot of data beyond what's on the license will be captured: time, date, location, reason for scan, etc. That is the really scary part of a "national ID" for me. There is no valid reason to track individuals within the country using their driver's license, no matter what you think they may or might do.

[art_director]

Ironically, this story just popped up on one of our local newspaper websites.

This is a prime example of how privacy is dead in America.

I recently heard and interesting bit of information. Apparently Domino's Pizza has a new profit center: their telephone database. It's said that it's their second largest money maker after pizzas. They sell it to anyone willing to cough up the dough. Among their biggest customers for this data is the Marshall Service. So, if you're on the lamb, resist the craving for a pizza.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by art_director 

They sell it to anyone willing to cough up the dough.

Nice pun.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

The problem with state issued driver's licenses is that each state sets its own standards for what goes on the license, what constitutes valid identification at the time of issue, and what is "fraud resistent". My first license in Michigan (I still remember the number 30 years later) had a 12-digit number, a photo with a seal impressed across an edge for tamper proofing, and some pretty nice fine-line details to prevent copying. When I was stationed in Mississippi and needed to upgrade to a motorcycle endorsement, the license used my Social Security number and was simplistic to say the least.

In Texas, I have to provide my index finger (or is it thumb) prints when I get a new license. Texas licenses have a number of fraud prevention features, including a holographic coating, and they've had digital pictures for a long, long time.

And U.S. jurisdictions have been sharing driver license data for a long time. By forcing all states to include a specific set of data, the Federal government is simply reducing the complications in sharing that data.

Not in a 50 state organized way.

but if and when I do have to give my license to someone who might scan its magnetic stripe, I'm fairly certain that a lot of data beyond what's on the license will be captured: time, date, location, reason for scan, etc. That is the really scary part of a "national ID" for me. There is no valid reason to track individuals within the country using their driver's license, no matter what you think they may or might do.

Mag stripe? We did away with magstripe 5 years ago. It's now a 2D barcode.

There's a business in selling bars a scanner/reader. No more fake ID problems.

http://www.turbulence.org/Works/swipe/barcode.html

This SWIPE tool allows you to crack a 2D barcode. Ever noticed the barcode on the backside of your license? Ever wondered what information it stores or why it is even there? Use our online application or the stand-alone program and put an end to the mystery! It is your data, so shouldn't you have a look? Learn more about the 2D barcode and your driver's license. Windows only.

http://www.intellicheck.com/Default....,116,Documents is one of the products being sold to bar owners.

[Zeeb]

Whenever I go to the bar these days, there's a guy there with a card reader that he swipes my license to tell if its fake. Now if they could only assign me free drinks with that thing for customer loyalty. . .

[Doofy]

Heck, even my router has a card reader built in.

[nonhuman]

Card readers do not prevent the use of fake IDs, only the use of bad fake IDs. It's incredibly easy to get your hands on a fake California driver's license complete with a working magnetic stripe that will match the info on the front. I don't know about other states, but I do know the process for making a fake California ID, and I can't imagine that it wouldn't be directly applicable to other states as well.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Card readers do not prevent the use of fake IDs, only the use of bad fake IDs. It's incredibly easy to get your hands on a fake California driver's license complete with a working magnetic stripe that will match the info on the front. I don't know about other states, but I do know the process for making a fake California ID, and I can't imagine that it wouldn't be directly applicable to other states as well.

This is why other states have joined the modern world and ditched magstripe.

Poor California, with their backwards technology

You try and generate an encrypted 2D barcode that matches faked info on the front. Get back to me when youv'e got something.

And THAT is why there's a movement to create a national standard for what a license will have on it.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

Whenever I go to the bar these days, there's a guy there with a card reader that he swipes my license to tell if its fake. Now if they could only assign me free drinks with that thing for customer loyalty. . .

If they didn't use a stand-alone machine, but a PC with a database on it, there's no reason they couldn't do customer-loyalty rewards.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Heck, even my router has a card reader built in.

What router, and what's it read? (presuming we're not talking USB or flash media storage)

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

What you need to do then, is rig up some mirrors and tubing, which looks at the meter. Put a light on the meter end, and a button for the light where the guy looks in outside. Now he doesn't have to bother you anymore.

The real solution is privatization, like here in the Netherlands. It'll be like any other product; competition etc and no governmental nazi's on your doorstep unless you don't pay.

I recently got my meter replaced with a new one. The new one has a built-in wireless thingie that checks whether it needs maintenance etc. No need to stay home.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

What router, and what's it read? (presuming we're not talking USB or flash media storage)

It's an Intertex IX66. Reads these:

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah 

The real solution is privatization, like here in the Netherlands. It'll be like any other product; competition etc and no governmental nazi's on your doorstep unless you don't pay.

Except that my gas supplier is a private company operating under a privatised system and I still have governmental nazis on my doorstep.

The real solution is a private island.
Or at the very least, voting the government out (something which the UK electorate seems to be incapable of doing).

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Except that my gas supplier is a private company operating under a privatised system and I still have governmental nazis on my doorstep.

The real solution is a private island.
Or at the very least, voting the government out (something which the UK electorate seems to be incapable of doing).

WTF? Well it doesn't sound like the energy market in the UK is completely liberated then. Time for a regime change!

[art_director]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Nice pun.

Thx.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

You try and generate an encrypted 2D barcode that matches faked info on the front. Get back to me when youv'e got something.

What's my prize?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by art_director 

What's my prize?

The booby prize- you've got a 2D code, but it isn't encrypted.
Good show, though.

The real challenge would be creating it, creating it with the encryption that the states are using, so that when you go to the barcode reader, it shows the correct information on the front.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

The booby prize- you've got a 2D code, but it isn't encrypted.
Good show, though.

The real challenge would be creating it, creating it with the encryption that the states are using, so that when you go to the barcode reader, it shows the correct information on the front.

It wouldn't take much effort to get a company to build a cutom app for you.

[art_director]

In the future, Kanihan said, the laptops no longer will contain Social Security numbers.

So long as people / companies are foolish enough to keep private data on laptops we're all vulnerable.

IMO there should be laws that punish those dumb enough to recklessly handle our data. And the penalties should be severe.

How many times does this story need to repeat itself before the government awakens from it's drunken slumber?

[red rocket]

[analogika]

Originally Posted by art_director 

IMO privacy advocates are way late to the party -- privacy is dead in today's world:

- Your credit card company sells your buying information

- Your cable company sells your TV viewing habits and internet suring records

- Many doctors offices sell your personal information that's not protected by law

- When you apply for a loan -- car / house / boat / etc. -- your intentions for the cash are recorded and sold

- If you have a baby your local government sells the date of birth, mother's maiden name, father's name and current street address (in MN an entire month worth of this data -- all births -- for any given county goes for $14)

- Your gas station sells your buying habits -- gas / junk food / etc.

- You video rental store sells your movie viewing habits

The list goes on and on. Clearly privacy is dead.

Any one of those would be enough to land people in jail in this country.

Clearly not "in this world" - you mean "in your country".