[Kerrigan]

Nearly half of Americans are not sure God exists, according to a poll that also found divisions among the public on whether God is male or female or whether God has a human form and has control over events. The survey conducted by Harris Poll found that 42 percent of US adults are not "absolutely certain" there is a God compared to 34 percent who felt that way when asked the same question three years ago.


Among the various religious groups, 76 percent of Protestants, 64 percent of Catholics and 30 percent of Jews said they are "absolutely certain" there is a God while 93 percent of Christians who describe themselves as "Born Again" feel certain God exists.
When questioned on whether God is male or female, 36 percent of respondents said they think God is male, 37 percent said neither male nor female and 10 percent said "both male and female."

Interesting how many Christians do not believe in God. I have a feeling that America has been like this all along; many people just go to church for the social scene, or to get involved in their community.

Of course if we are being honest with ourselves, nobody can be certain that God exists. Nor can we be certain in the existence of the 'self' either. But these are long-standing uncertainties, and I don't see them affecting the religious dynamics of America that much.

BREITBART.COM - Nearly half of Americans uncertain God exists: poll

[RAILhead]

For most people, being "Christian" simply means they aren't Mormon, or Jewish, or Buddhist or whatever. Christianity is just a label for a faith, the true religion is personal -- but a lot of people don't take it to that level.

[ghporter]

Which God? How many of 'Em? If you ONLY poll particular groups, you're going to get some very interesting shifting of the results on religious questions.

I personally believe that some sort of divine being or beings exist. This certainly wouldn't fit with a poll that asks "do you believe in God," particularly if the question is posed in a way to imply that the "God" in question was the traditional Judaochristian deity.

On the other hand, I saw survey results a short time back that talked about how Americans were becoming MORE faith-dependent... I'll see if I can find a reference to that and post it. In any case, you also have to pay attention to who paid for the survey, and what the actual questions were before you take anything from this particular poll to the bank.

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

For most people, being "Christian" simply means they aren't Mormon, or Jewish, or Buddhist or whatever. Christianity is just a label for a faith, the true religion is personal -- but a lot of people don't take it to that level.

Doesn't the LDS church call itself a Christian church? Since it's the "Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints," I'd think it would qualify...

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Doesn't the LDS church call itself a Christian church? Since it's the "Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints," I'd think it would qualify...

...and therein lies the conundrum. So many peple, so many opinions.

[Monique]

I know God exists, 90% of the time when I ask him something through prayers, he grants me my requests. I asked him to save my brother and now I learned yesterday that his cancer (from being a huge shadow on an x-ray is now benign and they can get rid of it with radiotherapy). Last weekend he caught a bug known as si difficile (hospitals in Quebec are not a sterile environment) and he almost died.

The only times God has not answered my requests are when they are resonable and about other people.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Monique 

I learned yesterday that his cancer (from being a huge shadow on an x-ray is now benign and they can get rid of it with radiotherapy).

Score!

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Doesn't the LDS church call itself a Christian church? Since it's the "Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints," I'd think it would qualify...

They call themselves Christian, but they are not. The Mormons aren't even monotheistic, which is a disqualifying criterion. They are no Christians.

[ebuddy]

I think what the poll suggests is more a phenomena of faith itself. Faith is not "all or none", but ebbs and flows within various degrees. For example; if measurable, one could say they are 90% faithful on Sunday afternoon and by Wednesday their faith has dwindled back to 30%. Their faith is often rekindled by a motivational service on Sunday and begins to waver again by the following week.

The numbers regarding church attendance sky-rocketed after 9/11, but the reactions here on MacNN were mixed. Same with Katrina. Some look to tragedy and say; "Why would a god allow this to happen?" Others here looked to faith in the realization that there just might be forces at work here greater than themselves. I'm not sure most are capable of 100% faith and arguably those that are, are quickly rendered psychotic.

100% conviction of anything is not viewed favorably by the collective.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

They call themselves Christian, but they are not. The Mormons aren't even monotheistic, which is a disqualifying criterion. They are no Christians.

You understand that some argue the "Holy Trinity" is polytheistic in nature. All these things are subject to interpretation and often filtered not by an interest in theology, but personal convictions for or against the faith. LDS believes Joseph Smith was a prophet not unlike Elijah, but as far as I know they are not suggesting Smith was a deity.

Catholics say prayers to Mary, the mother of God as well as several other saints. Some consider the act of praying to dead people a form of polytheism.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

You understand that some argue the "Holy Trinity" is polytheistic in nature.

I know this very well. The Christian churches argue it's not, but even if you would follow that line of thinking, you would have three gods at most. This is not what Christians believe, but for sake of the argument one could assume it. Mormonism has an arbitrary number of gods. 1 god vs. arbitrary or 3 gods vs. arbitrary doesn't change anything in principle. Both religions are substantially different in an essential aspect of belief. Mormons are no Christians even though they refer to Jesus. Muslims also refer to Jesus, that doesn't make them Christians either.

LDS believes Joseph Smith was a prophet not unlike Elijah, but as far as I know they are not suggesting Smith was a deity.

That's not what they are suggesting. But they believe that in principle every human has the possibility to become a god. They believe that God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three different gods. Makes an arbitrary number. They believe that Jesus is Yahwe, the god of the old testament. And other stuff that is totally incompatible with Christianity.

[badidea]

A triptychon (or english "triptych" I think) is considered to be one painting!

I don't understand why people have so many problems with the "Holy Trinity" then!?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by badidea 

A triptychon (or english "triptych" I think) is considered to be one painting!

I don't understand why people have so many problems with the "Holy Trinity" then!?

Something one needs to realise is that the World is largely populated by simpletons.

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Something one needs to realise is that the World is largely populated by simpletons.

Case in point, you.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA 

Case in point, you.

Wow, I wasn't expecting that.

[lpkmckenna]

The amazing thing about this is that more than half of all Americans are "certain" that God exists.

Of course if we are being honest with ourselves, nobody can be certain that God exists.

Nor can we be certain in the existence of the 'self' either.

Half-witted sophistry.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I never did like Descartes, but he had a point. The senses can be deceiving.

[Saetre]

Originally Posted by badidea 

A triptychon (or english "triptych" I think) is considered to be one painting!

I don't understand why people have so many problems with the "Holy Trinity" then!?

Catholic doctrine states that each unit of the trinity is distinct from the others and yet each is wholly God (not just part of god). Each segment of the triptychon is not thought to embody the whole of the triptychon, so your analogy doesn't quite work. In fact no analogy will work because the Doctrine of the Unity of the Trinity is logically inconsistent.

[Shaddim]

There are many people who know that "God" exists.

Thing is, we can't help it if others lack the desire to find "God", it requires more effort than most people are willing to put forth.

However, here's the sticking point. It's better to believe and have faith than it is to know. Knowing provides no path to salvation, the construct of faith is what sets a man's soul free.

[besson3c]

It would be interesting for the poll to contrast how popular Jesus is compared to God, just in case there are people that believe in Jesus that don't believe in God, and vice versa.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Half-witted sophistry.

A transcendent, total 'self' is said by many philosophers to rest on metaphysical grounds, and is therefore unbelievable. What proof have you got that your self is anything other than a chemical trick? None. I won't get stroppy and call you a half-wit, but I will say that perhaps you aren't conversant with some of the darker implications of philosophy.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Like I said. Simpletons.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It would be interesting for the poll to contrast how popular Jesus is compared to God, just in case there are people that believe in Jesus that don't believe in God, and vice versa.

Ladies and gentlemen, bess just likes to say "Jesus".

move along...

[BRussell]

I'm glad to see it. It's the lack of doubt about such matters that, IMO, is problematic. If you lack any doubt, you become a zealot. It's one thing to have beliefs, it's another to think those beliefs are beyond doubt and infallible.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I'm glad to see it. It's the lack of doubt about such matters that, IMO, is problematic. If you lack any doubt, you become a zealot. It's one thing to have beliefs, it's another to think those beliefs are beyond doubt and infallible.

Ya I agree. Zealotry, enthusiasm, whatever you want to call it, tends to have rather un-Christian results when an entire society adopts it. Religious enthusiasts (like the Amish for instance) can exist peaceful when they live in a pluralistic society, but that is only b/c they are kept in check by hundreds of competing religions/sects.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Ladies and gentlemen, bess just likes to say "Jesus".

move along...

I like to say lots of things actually, such as "President Bush is a bad president", just for instance...

[ink]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

They call themselves Christian, but they are not. The Mormons aren't even monotheistic, which is a disqualifying criterion. They are no Christians.

They belive that Jesus died for their sins, and only through his grace can they be forgiven for being imperfect. If you want to split hairs, then have fun.

I'm an exmormon-come-atheist, FWIW. But I still have immense resepect for most practicing Mormons. Pretty much my whole family are.

[mac1896]

Originally Posted by ink 

They belive that Jesus died for their sins, and only through his grace can they be forgiven for being imperfect. If you want to split hairs, then have fun.

I'm an exmormon-come-atheist, FWIW. But I still have immense resepect for most practicing Mormons. Pretty much my whole family are.

"They belive that ***Jesus*** died for their sins........"

Is this the Jesus of the Bible, or the Jesus of the Church's Doctrine ?

There is a HUGE difference.

If it's not the Jesus of the Bible, then their sin remains, for only by the shed Blood of Christ, and faith in His atoning work, can ANYONE have forgiveness of sins.

ANYONE.

[BRussell]

I don't think Presbyterians are true Christians. And don't even get me started on Lutherans.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I don't think Presbyterians are true Christians. And don't even get me started on Lutherans.

Poor Christianity, almost none of it's follower agree which form of Christianity is the true one. A splintered religion if I ever saw one.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Thing is, we can't help it if others lack the desire to find "God", it requires more effort than most people are willing to put forth.

Yeah, we atheists "just don't work hard enough."

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

A transcendent, total 'self' is said by many philosophers to rest on metaphysical grounds, and is therefore unbelievable.

The "many" philosophers who believe this aren't worth spit.

[Sky Captain]

Poor Islam, almost none of it's followers agree which form of Islam is the true one. A splintered religion if I ever saw one.

[lpkmckenna]

Poor Christianity/Islam, almost none of it's followers agree which form of Islam is the true one. A splintered religion if I ever saw one.

I'd say the scariest denominations are the ones where the members monolithically agree on everything (i.e are brainwashed).

Basing a criticism on the fact that people tend to disagree about things implies to me that you are against disagreement in principle. That's scary.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Yeah, we atheists "just don't work hard enough."

No, you "don't work at all".

Your choice. *shrug*

The "many" philosophers who believe this aren't worth spit.

I get a kick when someone like you judges a person like Jung.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Poor Islam, almost none of it's followers agree which form of Islam is the true one. A splintered religion if I ever saw one.

Such is religion and human nature itself unfortunately. Absolutely no collective of any kind will agree on all matters. Even within the Catholic faith there are those calling for more liberal philosophy such as female priests and the like while there are those staunchly opposed to changing any facet of Catholic doctrine. People of the fundamentalist faiths argue pre and post tribulation, water baptism over baptism of the Holy Spirit, etc...

The problem is when these differences are viewed as personal afronts such as the notion that those who seek to liberalize tenets of the Catholic faith are acting in a way contrary to its interest or that if things aren't viewed as you view them it is outward bastardization when in reality it may be nothing more than simple disagreement.

[Nicko]

... Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. . .

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Nicko 

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.

It is neither all or nothing. It has also been a comfort to the oppressed creature, the lone call against a heartless culture, the spirit to the spiritless, and the source of strength to put the opiate down.

[Nicko]

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I'd say the scariest denominations are the ones where the members monolithically agree on everything (i.e are brainwashed).

Basing a criticism on the fact that people tend to disagree about things implies to me that you are against disagreement in principle. That's scary.

That's quite a leap in logic. I heard Calaveras Co. is looking a for a new mascot, you might want to apply.

[ebuddy]

Hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle,
The cow jumped over the moon,
The little dog laughed to see such sport,
And the dish ran away with the spoon.

Trading one illusion for another is not reality and truth over dogma. They are both illusory. Truth is relative. [/ ]

[Dakar²]

So does this go against other polls or what? I thought like 90% of Americans believe there is some type of god or something.

[Saetre]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Thing is, we can't help it if others lack the desire to find "God", it requires more effort than most people are willing to put forth.

Atheism also often requires more effort than most people are willing to put forth... Exertion by itself does not make its end noble, truthful or useful.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Saetre 

Atheism also often requires more effort than most people are willing to put forth... Exertion by itself does not make its end noble, truthful or useful.

Atheism only requires apathy, which is quite abundant in this world.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

So does this go against other polls or what? I thought like 90% of Americans believe there is some type of god or something.

Belief and certainty aren't the same thing.

[OSX Abuser]

Everyone can have a God of their own

OOPs image was to big
http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/other/fsm.jpg

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by OSX Abuser 

Everyone can have a God of their own

OOPs image was to big
http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/other/fsm.jpg

Of course, and for some people, it's themselves (Atheists). It's easier that way, requires less effort.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Belief and certainty aren't the same thing.

That's true.

I just feel like both polls give entirely different flavors to how America perceives things.

[Saetre]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Atheism only requires apathy, which is quite abundant in this world.

It seems to me that this would only apply to the small percentage of atheists who are born into atheistic families and happen to be apathetic. Most people find atheism on their own and do so after a fair bit of searching. Sure there is probably the occassional kid who is doing nothing more than rebeling against his parents, but I have yet to meet one. For most people in the US, passive christianity is the default, apathetic position. Of course you probably don't think these people have truly found god either.

Atheism can be the result of a passionate search for knowledge just as religion can. I think it usually is.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Of course, and for some people, it's themselves (Atheists). It's easier that way, requires less effort.

Just because something requires effort doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, so you're not getting anywhere with that argument.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Atheism only requires apathy, which is quite abundant in this world.

This forum practically spoon-feeds it to me.

Edit: Though oddly, I'm not atheist.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I get a kick when someone like you judges a person like Jung.

Jung didn't deny the existence of the self.

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Atheism only requires apathy, which is quite abundant in this world.

That's right, everyone from Karl Marx to Ayn Rand, from Jodie Foster to Alfred Hitchcock, from Benjamin Spock to Richard Dawkins, from Thomas Edison to James Watson - is cursed with apathy.

Do you give your opinions any thought at all?