[marden]

A POLL FOR AMERICANS ONLY: Is Patriotism Relevant?

I think patriotism is an important quality in America and one that is sorely lacking.

What do you think? Is it relevant in today's world?

[The Left]

Patriotism is like christianity, something whose time has come and gone.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Does patriotism mean supporting the administration's actions and decisions regardless of their merit? Or does patriotism mean supporting the ideals traditionally championed by America regardless of which public figures currently happen to support them? Or does patriotism mean supporting America's conquest of other nations, regardless of justification, provocation, clear and present danger, or advancement of national interest?

[blackbird_1.0]

I think being proud of your country or where you come from is fine, as long as it's not obsessive or supportive of things you know are wrong.

[Millennium]

Are we talking about patriotism, or are we talking about nationalism? The differences are often subtle, but they can be very important in certain contexts.

Consider those who fought in the American Revolution. Certainly these people could be called patriots, probably to varying degrees. Popular culture calls them patriots, at any rate. But they weren't nationalists: in fact, they were rebelling against their nation, which at the time was the British Empire.

[Atheist]

Patriotism is totally relevant. Patriotism means you vigorously support your country (not necessarily the goverment). I am not a big fan of the current administration. There are certain trends in American society that I'm truly opposed to. That said I LOVE my country and would be more than willing to defend it against a any true threat.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

Are we talking about patriotism, or are we talking about nationalism? The differences are often subtle, but they can be very important in certain contexts.

Consider those who fought in the American Revolution. Certainly these people could be called patriots, probably to varying degrees. Popular culture calls them patriots, at any rate. But they weren't nationalists: in fact, they were rebelling against their nation, which at the time was the British Empire.

Exactly. Patriotism is doing something you think it right for your countryman, even if it is against your government.

The right loves to twist and corrupt the idea of patriotism.

[Nicko]

As a fellow foreign agent I feel it is my duty to skew the results…

[marden]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Patriotism is totally relevant. Patriotism means you vigorously support your country (not necessarily the goverment). I am not a big fan of the current administration. There are certain trends in American society that I'm truly opposed to. That said I LOVE my country and would be more than willing to defend it against a any true threat.

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&...n&ct=title

Definitions of threat on the Web:

menace: something that is a source of danger; "earthquakes are a constant threat in Japan"
a warning that something unpleasant is imminent; "they were under threat of arrest"
declaration of an intention or a determination to inflict harm on another; "his threat to kill me was quite explicit"
terror: a person who inspires fear or dread; "he was the terror of the neighborhood"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A threat is an unwanted (deliberate or accidental) event that may result in harm to an asset. Often, a threat is exploiting a known vulnerability(ies). A threat could be the perception of insecurity; see also risk. A threat is also an explicit or implicit message from a person to another that the first will cause something bad to happen to the other, often except when certain demands are met. Often a weapon is used. Examples are a robbery, kidnapping, hijacking, extortion, blackmail.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat

Any circumstance or event with the potential to adversely impact an information system through unauthorized access, destruction, disclosure, modification of data, and/or denial of service.
www.tecrime.com/0gloss.htm

The means through which the ability or intent of a threat agent to adversely affect an automated system, facility, or operation can be manifest. A potential violation of security.
http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ld/pubs/c.../glossary.html

The potential for a threat-source to exercise (accidentally trigger or intentionally exploit) a specific vulnerability. Examples: Terminated employees using knowledge gained while employed (eg, remote access phone numbers) to obtain unauthorized access Hackers identifying and exploiting vulnerabilities in the design of an Internet connection.
http://www.cscic.state.ny.us/msisac/...t_glossary.htm

An indication or source of impending danger; declaration of an intention to harm, injure, etc.
www.wpi.edu/Pubs/Policies/Judicial/sect16.html

Possibility that vulnerability may be exploited to cause harm to a system, environment, or personnel.
http://www.michigan.gov/cybersecurit...415---,00.html

includes a threat made by any conduct, whether express or implied and whether conditional or unconditional.
scaleplus.law.gov.au/html/pasteact/1/686/1/PA005910.htm

A combination of the Risk, the Consequence of that risk, and the Likelihood that the negative Event will take place. Often used in analysis in place of Risk.
www.mc2consulting.com/riskdef.htm

Internet communication or packet containing potentially damaging instructions or information.
www.pcviper.com/help/glossary.html

the reporting of a bomb or explosive device that has or will be placed in any public or private place, knowing that such information is false. Burglary:
ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu/Police/1995/Glossary.html

A move that threatens to capture an enemy piece or damage the position of the opponent.
www.geocities.com/allentownchess/terms.html

PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS:

Jihad is a source of danger. Do you agree or not?

Jihadists will not hesitate to inflict harm or death on anyone. Do you agree or not?

Jihad has a goal of conquering every nation on earth. Do you agree or not?

If Jihadists continue to eat up territory and gain converts & resources they will be harder to fight. Do you agree or not?

Any 'defense only' campaign is likely to fail. Do you agree or not?

Jihadists have declared war on America and intend to harm us any way they can. Do you agree or not?

The US has many different vulnerabilties Jihadists can exploit. Do you agree or not?

Jihadists can strike at any time. Do you agree or not?

Jihadists are visually indistinguishable from innocent non-jihadists. Do you agree or not?

[Rumor]

Relevant to what? My choice of breakfast this morning?

[Rumor]

PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS:

Gangs are a source of danger. Do you agree or not?

Gang bangers will not hesitate to inflict harm or death on anyone. Do you agree or not?

Gangs has a goal of conquering every ghetto in their city. Do you agree or not?

If Gang bangers continue to eat up territory and gain converts & resources they will be harder to fight. Do you agree or not?

Any 'defense only' campaign is likely to fail. Do you agree or not?

Gangs have declared war on America's impoverished areas and intend to harm us any way they can. Do you agree or not?

The US has many different vulnerabilties Gangs can exploit. Do you agree or not?

Gang bangers can strike at any time. Do you agree or not?

Gang bangers are visually indistinguishable from innocent non-jihadists. Do you agree or not?

[Zeeb]

Sure they're relevant and Uncle Skeleton implied what I also believe. To me it means supporting the ideals of America to which we aspire. People get too frustrated I think that we often don't meet those ideals but who is perfect? As long as you try to aspire to them and believe you have a system of government that's worth saving.

If there wasn't patriotism, the only left would cynicism and that doesn't build or hold together nations. At any rate, blindly supporting the policies of any president does not necessarily make you a patriot nor does disagreeing with the president make you not one.

I don't agree with you that we should be as terrified of jihadists as your marden persona is. I still consider someone a patriot who disagrees with you.

[macintologist]

I think patrtiotism is only useful when it benefits your own. For example I find it rational to support the building up of America only if it means benefiting my own personal life.

Other than that, patriotism is just another form of religion that I don't adhere to, sorry.

[besson3c]

I indicated that I would explain my feelings in a post.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

I think patrtiotism is only useful when it benefits your own. For example I find it rational to support the building up of America only if it means benefiting my own personal life.

Other than that, patriotism is just another form of religion that I don't adhere to, sorry.

Could you please elaborate on the comparison of religion to patriotism... I don't quite follow it.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Could you please elaborate on the comparison of religion to patriotism... I don't quite follow it.

At the very least patriotism is loving something that coherently physically exist. But what I find about it similar to religion is how you're willing to "die for your country". Sorry but my loyalties do not go beyond family and friends.

[ironknee]

patriotism is standing up and criticize your government when you see something wrong.

if you follow your government blindly your country become north korea

also, i don't want americans to suffer things like outsourced jobs to india, china etc...keep our jobs here. on the other hand, if a product i want to buy is made by another country and there isn't anything as good made in the usa, i will buy it...it's called competition

the dark side of patriotism is isolationism.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

At the very least patriotism is loving something that coherently physically exist. But what I find about it similar to religion is how you're willing to "die for your country". Sorry but my loyalties do not go beyond family and friends.

I agree that one should never sacrifice your life for just any stupid conflict the U.S. gets involved in. Case in point, Iraq. Why get your legs blown off to stabilize a country that will fall apart soon anyway?

If there was a legitimate threat to our security and system of government its a shame you wouldn't want to be willing to risk something to preserve that. Saying that your loyalties lie only with your family and friends suggests that it wouldn't matter to you one bit if say, our current government was replaced by a dictatorship that prevented you from posting on MacNN -- and rounded up your family and friends for execution.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

if you follow your government blindly...

Sounds like some of the posters here.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by The Left 

Patriotism is like christianity, something whose time has come and gone.

Patriotism and Christianity are all part of an immensely diverse population. Intolerance is something that has come and gone along with "the left".

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I indicated that I would explain my feelings in a post.

Jesus knows how you feel besson3c.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I indicated that I would explain my feelings in a post.

I'd like to commend you on a job well done.

Brought a tear to my eye reading your touching words.

As a southerner, I'm happy to have yankees like you here in the US.

edited: Jesus told me how you felt.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Sounds like some of the posters here.

Some believe if you support our cause in Iraq you're blindly following the Administration. They got that notion from a bumper sticker.

[Timo]

Why Americans only?

Why ALL CAPS?

[BlueSky]

Patriotism is OK if you keep yer big trap shut about it, I suppose. Even then, it has a certain stink to it that I don't care for.

Mark Twain on patriotism:

Patriotism is usually the refuge of the scoundrel. He is the man who talks the loudest.

Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about.

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice--and always has been.

[itai195]

You have to define patriotism first

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

At the very least patriotism is loving something that coherently physically exist. But what I find about it similar to religion is how you're willing to "die for your country". Sorry but my loyalties do not go beyond family and friends.

Well, I'm truly sorry you feel no loyalties to a country that provides you so much. I dare you to live outside the United States for a while. I am presently living in a third world country and am so angered by the complacency I see exhibited by many Americans back home. You have no idea how good you have it in the States. From day to day I don't even know if I'll have water or electricity. You need a reality check.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Well, I'm truly sorry you feel no loyalties to a country that provides you so much. I dare you to live outside the United States for a while. I am presently living in a third world country and am so angered by the complacency I see exhibited by many Americans back home. You have no idea how good you have it in the States. From day to day I don't even know if I'll have water or electricity. You need a reality check.

You're not sure if you'll have water or electricity but you have internet access?

[marden]

Originally Posted by itai195 

You have to define patriotism first

Definitions of patriotism on the Web:

love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it; "they rode the same wave of popular patriotism"; "British nationalism was in the air and patriotic sentiments ran high"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Patriotism is a feeling of love and devotion to one's own homeland (patria, the land of one's fathers). This article surveys the concept of patriotism from the viewpoints of history, politics, ethics, and biology.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

­ To show love, support, and sacrifice for one's country.
Manassas National Battlefield: Teacher's Corner: Vocabulary List

define:patriotism - Google Search

[marden]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Does patriotism mean supporting the administration's actions and decisions regardless of their merit? Or does patriotism mean supporting the ideals traditionally championed by America regardless of which public figures currently happen to support them? Or does patriotism mean supporting America's conquest of other nations, regardless of justification, provocation, clear and present danger, or advancement of national interest?

Yes, it does.

The problem with your point of view is that you know the government will change every few years according to the will of the people but anyone who says they don't support the GOVERNMENT but they support the COUNTRY is copping out.

They are full of crap.

They are being insincere.

They are hiding behind the banner of protest.

If a parent loves his child but refuses to feed it because he hates his spouse he doesn't really love his child, does he?

[marden]

Originally Posted by blackbird_1.0 

I think being proud of your country or where you come from is fine, as long as it's not obsessive or supportive of things you know are wrong.

No.

Patriotism is a feeling of love and devotion to one's own homeland (patria, the land of one's fathers). This article surveys the concept of patriotism from the viewpoints of history, politics, ethics, and biology.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

[marden]

Originally Posted by Timo 

Why Americans only?

Why ALL CAPS?

Because my eyesight sometimes fails me and I wanted to make sure I was excluding those whose opinions don't matter in the context of American's feelings about American patriotism.

[marden]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Exactly. Patriotism is doing something you think it right for your countryman, even if it is against your government.

The right loves to twist and corrupt the idea of patriotism.

I think you are mistaking patriotism for fashion.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Gangs ≠ Jihadists

I'll give you a clue. Discuss the similarities or differences between gang members and jihadists in these areas:


Numbers

Motivation/ideology

Scope

Methodology

Consequences

[goMac]

Originally Posted by marden 

I think you are mistaking patriotism for fashion.

No, I think you really are confusing patriotism and nationalism.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

Sure they're relevant and Uncle Skeleton implied what I also believe. To me it means supporting the ideals of America to which we aspire. People get too frustrated I think that we often don't meet those ideals but who is perfect? As long as you try to aspire to them and believe you have a system of government that's worth saving.

If there wasn't patriotism, the only left would cynicism and that doesn't build or hold together nations. At any rate, blindly supporting the policies of any president does not necessarily make you a patriot nor does disagreeing with the president make you not one.

I don't agree with you that we should be as terrified of jihadists as your marden persona is. I still consider someone a patriot who disagrees with you.

Blindness has absolutely nothing to do with my stance. He sees things the way I do. The time to deal with Global Jihad is BEFORE it grows larger and comes closer. Some of you seem to embody the feelings Robert Downey Jr. said he has about drugs:

[on his addiction to drugs]: "It's like I have a loaded gun in my mouth, and I like the taste of metal."

You know there is a danger headed our way but you are suicidally transfixed to do nothing about it but watch it happen.

I guess the only questions left to ask you is:

At what point is it too late to stop global jihadists?

How much land are we willing to let them have before it becomes time to oppose them?

How do you look at yourself in the mirror when you KNOW 15 million Iraqis voted for freedom and trusted the USA and then we abandoned them?

[marden]

Originally Posted by goMac 

No, I think you really are confusing patriotism and nationalism.

The love of country goes beyond loving it ONLY when it suits YOUR whim.

If you don't love the country because you disagree with the government then you have, in effect, called a time out on your patriotism.

With that as the case I think you should NOT have any say in the government's actions.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Well, I'm truly sorry you feel no loyalties to a country that provides you so much. I dare you to live outside the United States for a while. I am presently living in a third world country and am so angered by the complacency I see exhibited by many Americans back home. You have no idea how good you have it in the States. From day to day I don't even know if I'll have water or electricity. You need a reality check.

Well put.

NOTE: It's a sad day when an atheist has to lecture you guys on your slackerness.

[Athens]

Its pretty important and I wish I saw more of it at home.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

I'd like to commend you on a job well done.

Brought a tear to my eye reading your touching words.

As a southerner, I'm happy to have yankees like you here in the US.

edited: Jesus told me how you felt.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Its pretty important and I wish I saw more of it at home.

Where is home, in Greece?

Sorry, the poll was for Yanks only.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

I agree that one should never sacrifice your life for just any stupid conflict the U.S. gets involved in. Case in point, Iraq. Why get your legs blown off to stabilize a country that will fall apart soon anyway?

If there was a legitimate threat to our security and system of government its a shame you wouldn't want to be willing to risk something to preserve that. Saying that your loyalties lie only with your family and friends suggests that it wouldn't matter to you one bit if say, our current government was replaced by a dictatorship that prevented you from posting on MacNN -- and rounded up your family and friends for execution.

You defend your COUNTRY. If your sense of patriotism is an on again or off again thing then it can be turned off by the nation just as you can turn it off from your end.

I'd say yours should be temporarily turned off. Thus you shouldn't have as much sway in the matter of our national defense and the defense of liberty.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by marden 

Where is home, in Greece?

Sorry, the poll was for Yanks only.

Try Canada, and who cares if its for Yanks only, im going to comment if its a topic that interests me.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by marden 

You defend your COUNTRY. If your sense of patriotism is an on again or off again thing then it can be turned off by the nation just as you can turn it off from your end.

I'd say yours should be temporarily turned off. Thus you shouldn't have as much sway in the matter of our national defense and the defense of liberty.

Leaders come and go, patriotism dosent mean you love your leader, but your country.

[marden]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

patriotism is standing up and criticize your government when you see something wrong.

if you follow your government blindly your country become north korea

also, i don't want americans to suffer things like outsourced jobs to india, china etc...keep our jobs here. on the other hand, if a product i want to buy is made by another country and there isn't anything as good made in the usa, i will buy it...it's called competition

the dark side of patriotism is isolationism.

As ebuddy said, it isn't BLINDLY following anything. It is recognizing that there is a threat to freedom around the world and that we need to figure out HOW to stop it BEFORE it's too late.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by marden 

As ebuddy said, it isn't BLINDLY following anything. It is recognizing that there is a threat to freedom around the world and that we need to figure out HOW to stop it BEFORE it's too late.

[Cue movie trailer guy voice]
"In a world....where freedom is threatened...can one man...recognize....BEFORE it's too late?"

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by marden 

The love of country goes beyond loving it ONLY when it suits YOUR whim.

If you don't love the country because you disagree with the government then you have, in effect, called a time out on your patriotism.

With that as the case I think you should NOT have any say in the government's actions.

So you admit that to be patriotic you have to agree with the government all the time?

That kind of "patriotism" is not relevant, no.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

So you admit that to be patriotic you have to agree with the government all the time?

That kind of "patriotism" is not relevant, no.

His statment kinda reminds me something that Hitler would say, would you agree.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by marden 

Well put.

NOTE: It's a sad day when an atheist has to lecture you guys on your slackerness.

WTF??

[marden]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

WTF??

If there are good atheists I suppose you are one of them.