[Atheist]

As a young man coming of age, I was forbidden (as were my older brothers) from joining the military. And no, my parents were not lefty flower-power hippies. My father is a staunch Republican. He was a Marine and served in Korea. However, his experiences were so horrific he insisted we not even consider the military as an option.

I have no children, so it's difficult for me to imagine how I might react. I have friends in the military (they're gay... but that's a different topic for discussion) serving in Iraq. I still feel it's a noble thing to do and don't think that I would outright refuse my child to serve.

What do you all think?

[nonhuman]

I don't have kids, but if I did I don't think I could forbid them to join the military. I would hope that they wouldn't want to do so on moral grounds, but it's their own choice. Besides, I considered joining the Navy myself twice (first I considered going to Annapolis after high school, second after 9/11).

If I were to have kids and they were to join the military, I would hope they'd join the Navy. Both my family and my soon-to-be inlaws are Navy families. Also I like ships...

[smacintush]

ALLOW? How does a parent forbid an adult from doing something?

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

ALLOW? How does a parent forbid an adult from doing something?

Yes, you are correct. A parent would have difficulty forbidding an adult child from doing anything. In my personal experience, education was stressed with a high expectation that I would attend college. When discussing career goals with my parents, a military career was always discouraged. I'm sure most here would agree that our parents do have a significant impact on us. When I left college, I headed straight to the private sector. Although that was my decision, it was heavily influenced by my parents.

[marden]

For liberals the idea of telling ANYONE what to do (no matter what their age) just comes naturally. That's why you see grownups being bossed around by their grey haired parents.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by marden 

For liberals the idea of telling ANYONE what to do (no matter what their age) just comes naturally. That's why you see grownups being bossed around by their grey haired parents.

Congratulations marden, you are this threads first winner of the "Pointless Post" award. You can add it to your collection.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by marden 

For liberals the idea of telling ANYONE what to do (no matter what their age) just comes naturally. That's why you see grownups being bossed around by their grey haired parents.

So liberals are the ones who tell grownups:

1. Can't criticize the President.
2. Can't have an abortion.
3. Can't marry the same sex.
4. Not to have sex until you get married.
5. Don't masturbate
6. Don't flip your middle finger


Right?
Grow up marden.

[DLQ2006]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

As a young man coming of age, I was forbidden (as were my older brothers) from joining the military. And no, my parents were not lefty flower-power hippies. My father is a staunch Republican. He was a Marine and served in Korea. However, his experiences were so horrific he insisted we not even consider the military as an option.

I have no children, so it's difficult for me to imagine how I might react. I have friends in the military (they're gay... but that's a different topic for discussion) serving in Iraq. I still feel it's a noble thing to do and don't think that I would outright refuse my child to serve.

What do you all think?

Put it this way; I am closer than I ever thought I could ever be to saying to my kids "there is nothing left of our country worth defending". When the prevailing attitude is that anyone who believes in God is evil and anyone who loves their country (if they're an American only that is) is worse.............than even I have raise the white flag and say there is nothing left of my country worth defending.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Congratulations marden, you are this threads first winner of the "Pointless Post" award. You can add it to your collection.

See how emo some people can be? I think we are politically synched but my guess is that you have a burr under your saddle about the atheist comment I made the other day.

If you are going to let that bother you so much that you'd turn on marden, so be it. But remember I said you were one of the good ones.

You'd rather we be on the same side, right?

[marden]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

So liberals are the ones who tell grownups:

1. Can't criticize the President.
2. Can't have an abortion.
3. Can't marry the same sex.
4. Not to have sex until you get married.
5. Don't masturbate
6. Don't flip your middle finger


Right?
Grow up marden.

See, can't help yourself.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

ALLOW? How does a parent forbid an adult from doing something?

one with kids that respect there parents?

[ironknee]

marden has secret things he does to support the troops...but he won't tell what he does:/

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by marden 

See, can't help yourself.

But you're not a grownup. See the difference?

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Athens 

one with kids that respect there parents?

Respecting your parents opinions is one thing, being FORBIDDEN to make your own decisions is another.

If my parents forbade me to join the military I would take their opinion into account but in the end I would decide what's best for me. No person, no matter how intelligent, experienced or insightful knows what is best for another person. Not even a parent.

Raising a child doesn't mean teaching them to be like you. It means teaching them to think for themselves so they can make their own decisions and do what's right for them.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

As a young man coming of age...

Originally Posted by DLQ2006

Put it this way; I am closer than I ever thought I could ever be to saying to my kids "there is nothing left of our country worth defending"...

I think there are two things every "kid" of military age should know.

First off, there is still something really worth defending. To me, the two most poignant moments in the book "Blackhawk Down" were moments where individual soldiers decided to reenlist. In both situations, the people in question were being shot at.

Though there were other reasons, the key was the people on their squad. Their "buddies", were just too important to abandon.

Almost once a week I feel that twisting in the pit of my stomach. I hear some story on the news and say to myself "I don't care if this war is bullshit, these guys need my help!"

Which gets us to the other point, and the reason I don't join. The military intentionally fills its ranks with young people, because young people think they're invincible, and have nothing to lose. Training involves making you have even less problems with losing it all. They brainwash you. That is what you sign up for, that is how these things work.

I'm not young, and am lucky enough to have a whole shitload to lose, so I'm not joining. Call me a wuss, I won't mind. I'll enlist if we get into war with China or something. It needs to be a short-term war for all the marbles if they want my creaky peace-lovin' ass. Think WWII.

So, if my offspring had as much of an understanding of these things as an 18 year old can have, and still wants to join. I would express my very real fear that they would die, though I would try and not go overboard.

When they shipped out the tear in one eye would be from sadness and fear, the one in the other eye would be one of pride because I had raised a "helper" and not a "taker". I'd make sure they knew that too.

[Buckaroo]

Tell them to join the Air Force. The Air Force is the safest of all branches of the military. Most AF personnell work a 9 to 5 job. It is easy to create a home life, since most bases are stateside. The overseas assignments are far from the front line. I believe the percentage of AF memebers exposed to combat conditions are less than 1% (maybe someone can verify this for me).

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by marden 

See how emo some people can be? I think we are politically synched but my guess is that you have a burr under your saddle about the atheist comment I made the other day.

I take nothing personally on this forum. No one should. The only people that can affect me with their words are my partner and family. All others mean nothing to me. Especially complete strangers on an internet forum.

If you are going to let that bother you so much that you'd turn on marden, so be it. But remember I said you were one of the good ones.

As I said. It really means nothing to me what you think of me.

You'd rather we be on the same side, right?

This is the most telling of your statements. And reveals much about you. In your mind one is either with you or against you. There is no middle ground.

I don't chose to be on anyone's side. I may agree with you in one thread... and think you are a complete ass in another.

My purpose of posting in these fora is to partake in a some casual debate. The problem is that the threads quickly devolve into ad hominem attacks and pointless baiting. I would argue that your first thread in this post contributed nothing to the debate and was an intential bait to the more liberal readers of the forum.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

Tell them to join the Air Force. The Air Force is the safest of all branches of the military. Most AF personnell work a 9 to 5 job. It is easy to create a home life, since most bases are stateside. The overseas assignments are far from the front line. I believe the percentage of AF memebers exposed to combat conditions are less than 1% (maybe someone can verify this for me).

How do they rank as far as accidents go? I'd be worried about something heavy falling on me.

Less important, does the Air Force use DU, or is that only the Army? I'd hate to be the schmuck who had to reload A-10s all day. Though there may be advantages to being able to use your hands as a flashlight.

Paging GHP...Paging GHP...

[marden]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

marden has secret things he does to support the troops...but he won't tell what he does:/

I'm inspired by this model that is practiced by some of the posters here.

[edit]Classifications of Jihad by Muslims

See also: Opinion of Islamic scholars on Jihad

Jihad has been classified either as al-jihād al-akbar (the greater jihad), the struggle against one's soul (nafs), or al-jihād al-asghar (the lesser jihad), the external, physical effort, often implying fighting.

Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah (struggle in the cause of God):[2]

Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb) is an inner struggle of good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid.

Jihad by the tongue (jihad bil lisan) is a struggle of good against evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah (proselytizing), Khutbas (sermons), et al.

Jihad by the pen and knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm) is a struggle for good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal reasoning), and through sciences (such as medical sciences).

Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to a struggle of good against evil waged by actions or with one's wealth, such as going on the Hajj pilgrimage (seen as the best jihad for women), taking care of elderly parents, providing funding for jihad, political activity for furthering the cause of Islam, stopping evil by force, or espionage.

Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah (armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

[marden]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

But you're not a grownup. See the difference?

[my hyteckit imitation] No, I don't understand what you mean. [/my hyteckit imitation]

[marden]

Originally Posted by subego 

I think there are two things every "kid" of military age should know.

First off, there is still something really worth defending. To me, the two most poignant moments in the book "Blackhawk Down" were moments where individual soldiers decided to reenlist. In both situations, the people in question were being shot at.

Though there were other reasons, the key was the people on their squad. Their "buddies", were just too important to abandon.

Almost once a week I feel that twisting in the pit of my stomach. I hear some story on the news and say to myself "I don't care if this war is bullshit, these guys need my help!"

Which gets us to the other point, and the reason I don't join. The military intentionally fills its ranks with young people, because young people think they're invincible, and have nothing to lose. Training involves making you have even less problems with losing it all. They brainwash you. That is what you sign up for, that is how these things work.

I'm not young, and am lucky enough to have a whole shitload to lose, so I'm not joining. Call me a wuss, I won't mind. I'll enlist if we get into war with China or something. It needs to be a short-term war for all the marbles if they want my creaky peace-lovin' ass. Think WWII.

So, if my offspring had as much of an understanding of these things as an 18 year old can have, and still wants to join. I would express my very real fear that they would die, though I would try and not go overboard.

When they shipped out the tear in one eye would be from sadness and fear, the one in the other eye would be one of pride because I had raised a "helper" and not a "taker". I'd make sure they knew that too.

I've never liked you until this post.

(Though the parody DID warm me up to you a bit!)

[marden]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

Tell them to join the Air Force. The Air Force is the safest of all branches of the military. Most AF personnell work a 9 to 5 job. It is easy to create a home life, since most bases are stateside. The overseas assignments are far from the front line. I believe the percentage of AF memebers exposed to combat conditions are less than 1% (maybe someone can verify this for me).

For those who want to serve but haven't the balls to serve in the combat arms, the Air Force is a fine choice. It's the gentlemanly way to serve. IF you can qualify.

[marden]

Originally Posted by subego 

How do they rank as far as accidents go? I'd be worried about something heavy falling on me.

Less important, does the Air Force use DU, or is that only the Army? I'd hate to be the schmuck who had to reload A-10s all day. Though there may be advantages to being able to use your hands as a flashlight.

Paging GHP...Paging GHP...

Everyone is tested to see where their talents lie. When I served in the military there were slot availabilities for certain jobs and if you tested well enough and showed a mental capacity to handle the job you could have your choice of military occupational specialties (MOS).

If you have a college degree or take ROTC and graduate then your options as an officer would be different, I'd suppose. (And better paid.)

[marden]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

I take nothing personally on this forum. No one should. The only people that can affect me with their words are my partner and family. All others mean nothing to me. Especially complete strangers on an internet forum.



As I said. It really means nothing to me what you think of me.



This is the most telling of your statements. And reveals much about you. In your mind one is either with you or against you. There is no middle ground.

I don't chose to be on anyone's side. I may agree with you in one thread... and think you are a complete ass in another.

My purpose of posting in these fora is to partake in a some casual debate. The problem is that the threads quickly devolve into ad hominem attacks and pointless baiting. I would argue that your first thread in this post contributed nothing to the debate and was an intential bait to the more liberal readers of the forum.

One of these days it will dawn on you that everything I say is correct. You will feel foolish for having disagreed with me. Don't worry. I deal with foolish youngsters all the time and until or unless your distinguish yourselves in a positive way I have a difficult time telling you all apart.

Thanks for letting me off the hook about possibly regretting hurting your feelings. I won't make that mistake again for a while.

Praise the Lord.

[pooka]

You* are a ****ing idiot.

*I'm not directing that at any individual... but if someone takes offense I hope it's the right ****ing idiot. Please go away so I can enjoy the forum again. Thx.

[Millennium]

I do not have children yet. When I do, I hope that by the time they reach the level of maturity to make such choices, I will have reached the level of maturity to respect their choices.

[Sky Captain]

If I had children, it would be their decision.
I would want them to consider Officers School though.
And of course flight school.

[davesimondotcom]

I have no children, and probably won't ever, unless we adopt.

However, I wish that my parents had encouraged me to look into the military. I think that when I left high school for college, I just did it because "that's what you do" when you are an honors student.

But I had no idea what I wanted to do with school, so it was a pointless effort.

I think that I could have used the discipline and brotherhood of the military. I have a good friend who was in the Marine Corps and it made a huge difference in his life.

My father-in-law went from juvenile delinquent to a respected man in his community and he credits his "choice" to enlist in the Marines. (It was that or jail. )

The military offers opportunities in training, education money and simply turning young men into better men. (I might push them to be a Marine, and so would their grandfather.)



I think if I was a parent and my kid made the choice to enlist, I'd be very proud of them.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

I do not have children yet. When I do, I hope that by the time they reach the level of maturity to make such choices, I will have reached the level of maturity to respect their choices.

Great post!

[marden]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

If I had children, it would be their decision.
I would want them to consider Officers School though.
And of course flight school.

Little Zoomies!

Cute mental image!

BTW, I flew as an unaccompanied minor as a tike and got a set of plastic wings and a certificate from United! Man, I wish that just 'wanting it' had been enough.

[ironknee]

Cameras Show Army Recruiters Misleading Students - AOL News

ABC News and New York affiliate WABC equipped students with hidden video cameras before they visited 10 Army recruitment offices in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.

"Nobody is going over to Iraq anymore?" one student asks a recruiter.

"No, we're bringing people back," he replies.

"We're not at war. War ended a long time ago," another recruiter says.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by subego 

How do they rank as far as accidents go? I'd be worried about something heavy falling on me.

Less important, does the Air Force use DU, or is that only the Army? I'd hate to be the schmuck who had to reload A-10s all day. Though there may be advantages to being able to use your hands as a flashlight.

Paging GHP...Paging GHP...

The Air Force is very safety consious. What would you think would fall on you? Actually the AF is much safer than many commercial operations.

Yes the AF uses DU ammuntion. It's not something that anyone does every day all day. If you have to load an aircraft with ammo, you won't spend much time near the ammo. That's more of grunt work. Most people in the AF work Technical or Service type jobs. Electronic Technicians, Jet Engine Mechanic, Crew Cheif (grease monkey), etc.

The Air Force is the best choice for those that can qualify. The second best choice would be the Navy, then the . . . I almost forgot, the Coast Gaurd is a fine choice. I think I'd prefer the Navy though over the Coast Gaurd. The Navy is not that great for someone that wants to have a family. While out on ship for 6+ months, it's hard to maintain a happy family life.

The AF is a good choice for daughters.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by marden 

BTW, I flew as an unaccompanied minor as a tike and got a set of plastic wings and a certificate from United! Man, I wish that just 'wanting it' had been enough.

I actually collect these.
I have a pair from the 1960's made of metal from United. They say Future Pilot on them.
I have dozens of the plastic ones from Eastern and Delta.
I mill out the center of the Delta ones and fill it with a red acrylic.
Then I give them to the kids I take flying on Airport Day at my local airport.
Along with a Young Eagles™ certificate.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

ALLOW? How does a parent forbid an adult from doing something?

That is what I was gonna ask.

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Congratulations marden, you are this threads first winner of the "Pointless Post" award. You can add it to your collection.

Actually the thread itself was pretty darn pointless as parents have no say. NONE.

[ebuddy]

I would approach this with my children in the same manner I approach any life-decision.

- weigh the pros and cons
- determine what they hope to gain from the experience. Clarify intentions.
- Have them do most of the talking

Help them arrive at their own decision by encouraging introspect and support that conclusion.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

ALLOW? How does a parent forbid an adult from doing something?

Unsuccessfully in most cases. But that doesn't stop a parent from trying. Nor does it mitigate the effect on their children to have their parents completely and utterly opposed to one course of action.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by marden 

One of these days it will dawn on you that everything I say is correct. You will feel foolish for having disagreed with me. Don't worry. I deal with foolish youngsters all the time and until or unless your distinguish yourselves in a positive way I have a difficult time telling you all apart.

Thanks for letting me off the hook about possibly regretting hurting your feelings. I won't make that mistake again for a while.

Praise the Lord.

Ego much? People who think they're 100% correct about everything are most often wrong. Particularly on the internet.


Anyway, on topic. I don't think it is noble to join the military or serve your country; to me it is an unfortunate necessity. However if it was their calling I certainly would not stop them.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by invisibleX 

Ego much? People who think they're 100% correct about everything are most often wrong. Particularly on the internet.

That would mean this statement was wrong. Right?

[subego]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

The Air Force is very safety consious. What would you think would fall on you? Actually the AF is much safer than many commercial operations.

Cool your jets there airman.

I'm not trying to disparage the AF at all. I'm just imagining the bad things that do happen likely involve something falling on you as opposed to being shot at.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

Yes the AF uses DU ammuntion. It's not something that anyone does every day all day. If you have to load an aircraft with ammo, you won't spend much time near the ammo. That's more of grunt work. Most people in the AF work Technical or Service type jobs. Electronic Technicians, Jet Engine Mechanic, Crew Cheif (grease monkey), etc.

I'm confused, the grunts aren't in the AF? And, do you not stay with the DU all day because it's DU, or that's how it would work no matter what you were loading?

Don't worry, I'm just curious. I'm not trying to bait or trap you.

[Sky Captain]

When I transported munitions(and DU rounds were amongst my cargo), I had a munitions maintenance personell with it.(USAF)
It's stored in steel containers.

And from my training, I was told it's not harmful to the handlers.
Just to the targets when it penetrates and fragments through the armor.

I found this on it:

Link

[subego]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

And from my training, I was told it's not harmful to the handlers.
Just to the targets when it penetrates and fragments through the armor.

I found this on it:

Link

I was being silly about the flashlight thing. I figure even if you view the armed forces really cynically (which I don't) I doubt exposing their soldiers to serious danger from this would be in anyone's best interests.

[Sky Captain]

We were all kinda wary of the DU munitions.
I had never handled it before.
My loadmaster wanted a Geiger counter on board.
Hell, I had mostly carried stuff like tents, chain, rope and meal supplies.
Then came the Gulf War. I didn't even get a desert camouflage uniform.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

We were all kinda wary of the DU munitions.

I would too. At the very least I wouldn't want to be around the stuff all day.

It makes sense though that the person whom the thing is pointed at is the one in real danger, especially since, as far as I understand it, what makes DU special is that it doesn't fragment, it ignites, almost like a mini anti-tank warhead. Assuming you aren't burned to death outright, you and your friends eat and breath the vaporized uranium and die of radiation poisoning... or heavy metal poisoning... or both.

Sometimes I wish my brain could take a shower. It feels grody after that.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

That is what I was gonna ask.


Actually the thread itself was pretty darn pointless as parents have no say. NONE.

funny, the army commercials are all about how to ask your parents about going to the army

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

funny, the army commercials are all about how to ask your parents about going to the army

They aren't asking them. They are trying to convince them that THEIR CHOICE to join was the right choice.

[marden]

Originally Posted by invisibleX 

Ego much? People who think they're 100% correct about everything are most often wrong. Particularly on the internet.


Anyway, on topic. I don't think it is noble to join the military or serve your country; to me it is an unfortunate necessity. However if it was their calling I certainly would not stop them.

I was kidding. When you are able to accurately judge someone's intent by their posting pattern a majority of the time (several people here are so capable, Kevin is one) then you will be a master. Until then you are (speaking metaphorically and not about any one person...several of you are well advised to take heed of this) just bait for the big fish.

And your attitudes about the military are interesting. Consider this.

http://www.quebecoislibre.org/010804-13.htm

[itai195]

Originally Posted by marden 

One of these days it will dawn on you that everything I say is correct. You will feel foolish for having disagreed with me. Don't worry. I deal with foolish youngsters all the time and until or unless your distinguish yourselves in a positive way I have a difficult time telling you all apart.

Ahh, good old delusions of grandeur

[ghporter]

I am proud to have served my country for over 23 years of active military service. But I'm not a moron-not everyone is suited for military service of any length, and I wouldn't suggest that everyone should serve. I would LIKE to see far more people interested in serving their country in some capacity, but it looks like most of our youth are far too egotistical and short sighted to think that way (and this attitude is a sign of delayed maturity, I might add).

I was very supportive when my son said he was interested in joining the Coast Guard because I felt that a structured lifestyle would help him get his head together as much as such a lifestyle helped me at his age. However he met a girl and they're serious (and he's not in the shape he'd need to be for signing up anyway), so that plan has morphed into a new one-getting a degree in a usable and salable skill that he's interested in. I'm sad in a way that he won't share some of the heritage I (and his mother) have shared, but it was his choice and his decision, just as signing up was mine about 28 years ago.

As someone has (or some several have) pointed out, once a person is 18, in the U.S. he or she can make whatever permanent decisions he or she chooses, and the rest of the world can be damned, PARTICULARLY PARENTS. My father served in the Air Force during Korea, but he served in Europe, so his experiences weren't as nasty as your father's were, Athiest. That may have had something to do with it. But his older brother enlisted in the Army Air Corps in 1944, and I'm not sure WHAT he did. That might have a different slant.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by subego 

Cool your jets there airman.

I'm not trying to disparage the AF at all. I'm just imagining the bad things that do happen likely involve something falling on you as opposed to being shot at.



I'm confused, the grunts aren't in the AF? And, do you not stay with the DU all day because it's DU, or that's how it would work no matter what you were loading?

Don't worry, I'm just curious. I'm not trying to bait or trap you.

It's been almost 20 years since I was in the AF. There is NOTHING that will fall on you.

Yes the grunts are in the AF. That would be Munitions experts. I don't think they handle DU that much. Almost everything is done by machines. As an Avionics Technician, I only had to handle DU maybe 10 minutes each year.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

No person, no matter how intelligent, experienced or insightful knows what is best for another person. Not even a parent.

I don't agree with that. I see people taking a path that I know won't make them happy and will only degrade their quality of life. I know that there are better options out there. I'm glad my parents gave me the direction and instruction they did, I'm definitely a better person because of it.