[goMac]

While we've been busy in Iraq, let's see how well things have been going in Afghanistan?

"THE first thing one notices about 16-year-old Gul Zam is her eyes, pretty and dark yet as watchful as a hunted animal’s. But then the scarf covering her head shifts slightly, exposing a livid red scar on her neck. The hands that play nervously in her lap are ridged with pink burns that reach up her arms, across her chest and down her legs.
Three months ago Gul Zam poured petrol over her body and set herself alight. To her it was the only way out of a marriage so abusive that her husband Abdul had beaten her until her clothes were soaked in blood."

"Five years after the Taliban were ousted from Kabul, the number of Afghan women setting fire to themselves because they cannot bear their lives has risen dramatically."

"Those who try to escape often end up in prison like 13-year-old Shabano, jailed in Kandahar for running away from the 50-year-old man to whom her father had sold her. “We don’t have democracy in this country if someone wants a love marriage,” she said, nibbling at grimy nails in the dark, dirty cell. “My father exchanged me for a teenage bride for himself.”"

"Afghanistan is engulfed in its bloodiest violence for 10 years. At least 3,000 people have been killed this year — more than twice last year’s total.

For all the talk of girls’ education, only 5% of those of secondary school age are enrolled. More than 300 schools have been burnt down this year or shut after threats from militants, leaving 200,000 pupils with nowhere to go.

There have been no significant water or power projects and two highways built with western aid have become almost no-go areas. The Kabul to Kandahar road is plagued by Taliban militants setting up fake checkpoints, killing Afghans accused of collaborating."

"“Parliament is just a showpiece for the West,” complains Malalai Joya, one of the female MPs. “Women do not have liberation at all. People in power, whether in government, parliament or governors, are warlords and jihadis who are no different in their outlook from Taliban.”

The 27-year-old MP has received so many death threats for her outspokenness that she has to sleep in a different place every night. To meet her involves going to a spot, then following an old man on a motorbike. She will not give out her address. The house is surrounded by sandbags and guards who search visitors before they can enter.

Inside Joya sits in a room that is bare of decoration apart from a black and white photograph of King Amanullah, under whose reign in the 1920s women were given equal rights and strict dress codes were abolished. She tells me she has just returned from visiting a five-year-old girl who had been kidnapped and raped in Kabul by a local commander. “The killing of women is like killing a bird for these men,” she said. “We have no value.” When she tries to speak in parliament, she is physically attacked by fellow MPs. “When I speak, they pelt me with water bottles,” she said. “One shouted, ‘Take and rape her!’ “The West talks of Afghan women having freedom and going outside without a burqa but I tell you the burqa was not the main problem for women. Look at the high rate of suicide among our women. The real problem is security and more and more are returning to the burqa.”"

Edit: Sorry, forgot the link:
They’d rather die: brief lives of the Afghan slave wives - Newspaper Edition - Times Online

How is it, that the administration decided that Iraq is the primary human rights concern, when Iraq never had the problems Afghanistan does now?

[dcmacdaddy]

I think we are doing one HELL of a job for the good people of Afghanistan. In fact, let's list all the major things we have accomplished in Afghanistan.

1.) We caught Osama bin Laden . . . YUP
2.) We eliminated all the Taliban . . . YUP
3.) Afghanistan is now a peacful country fully under the control of the central government . . . YUP

Ahh, What a beautfiul thing freedom is; I sure hope they like it.

</sarcasm>

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

I think we are doing one HELL of a job for the good people of Afghanistan. In fact, let's list all the major things we have accomplished in Afghanistan.

1.) We caught Osama bin Laden . . . YUP
2.) We eliminated all the Taliban . . . YUP
3.) Afghanistan is now a peacful country fully under the control of the central government . . . YUP

Ahh, What a beautfiul thing freedom is; I sure hope they like it.

Here, this will make you feel better:

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

I think we are doing one HELL of a job for the good people of Afghanistan. In fact, let's list all the major things we have accomplished in Afghanistan.

1.) We caught Osama bin Laden . . . YUP
2.) We eliminated all the Taliban . . . YUP
3.) Afghanistan is now a peacful country fully under the control of the central government . . . YUP

Ahh, What a beautfiul thing freedom is; I sure hope they like it.

Are you serious?

[Dakar²]

Odd, that's look edited to me.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Odd, that's look edited to me.

hehe I think he's being sarcastic

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Odd, that's look edited to me.

I think you need to do a little editing of your own champ

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Nicko 

hehe I think he's being sarcastic

You're telling the wrong person that.

[ink]

Odds that a MacNN conservative decides to defend the adminstration's Afghanistan policy: .000234 to one, against.

Odds that a MacNN conservative decides to project Afghanistan's problems on liberals: .89245 to one, supporting.

Odds that a MacNN conservative decides to predict the failure of Afghanistan's government if the Democrats take control of one of the houses: .923245 to one, supporting.

[art_director]

Isn't Disney building a theme park in Afghanistan?

[sek929]

OpiateLand!

Yay!

[art_director]

Originally Posted by sek929 

OpiateLand!

Yay!

Hmmm...I suppose it would make the rides more fun.

[sek929]

Come see the new 'Pirates of the Middle-East' ride!

Basically you get high on heroin, then a group of warlords chases you around in tanks.

Fun eh? Maybe once Iraq fully accepts freedom (fcuk yeah!) we can have a few rides there too.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Afghanistan's current state is probably the untold heartbreaking story of the War on Terror.

Here in Canada, you've got the idiotic Jack Layton and the NDP screaming to remove our troops from the area:

The Government of Canada has committed Canadian Forces to an unbalanced counter-insurgent mission in southern Afghanistan that has no clear objectives, criteria for progress, definition of success or exit strategy.

While I agree in large part, I think Canadian troops (and others of course) are a real reason why anything resembling sanity is holding fast in that country right now.

greg

[natnabour]

I don't think Democracy can change the way Afghan men think about women. I don't think ''Liberating'' Afghanistan will ever change the way the men in that country look at women. What they need is a change in their thought process - which certainlly won't happen through goverment. Unless a very powerful and influential RELIGIOUS leader stands up and says, ''Hey! Stop beating your wife. Don't sell you daughter. Teach your son to respect women.'' Then there's no way in hell anything will ever change. Or maybe if a VERY STRICT dictator comes to power who will in turn fine/jail men for abusing women - then mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe some sort of change will come about. As of right now, that is highly unlikely.

I feel the same way about women in Iran. And what the saddest part about it is that both Afhgani and Iranian women have had the sweet taste of living freely out in the open - only to have that freedom snatched from them. (I'm leaving out various women from nations such as India, Egypt, etc...)

Anyways. This is what my twister-self hopes. I hope all the women from Afghanistan disappear. I hope then to find all the men - with no women in sight to slightly go crazy for a while. "Why, who will cook our food? Who will iron my shirt? Who will do the housework? Who will I ****?"
Then I hope they all sit there and **** themselves until they no longer can work and their economy suffers (what economy, right?) and until one day, they realize....damn! What have we done?!

(burst bubble)


/end rant

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I love how the most strident Conservative members of the forum who seem to post in every single thread have conspicuously missed this one.



greg

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I love how the most strident Conservative members of the forum who seem to post in every single thread have conspicuously missed this one.



greg

George Bush has told them the Liberals don't support the Afghan war, anything contrary gets filtered out by Bush-o-filter.

[tie]

Since conservatives are unlikely to post here (are there any conservatives left in this forum who aren't on drugs?), I'll play devil's advocate.

Does Afghanistan even matter? Iraq clearly matters, because we launched an unprovoked war there. But Afghanistan supported Al Qaeda after a major attack on the US. We had every justification for going in, bombing the place to pieces, and leaving. Successfully rebuilding Afghanistan is optional. It's a good long-term strategy to prevent similar problems from developing again, but unlike Iraq it is not a moral obligation.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by tie 

Since conservatives are unlikely to post here (are there any conservatives left in this forum who aren't on drugs?), I'll play devil's advocate.

Does Afghanistan even matter? Iraq clearly matters, because we launched an unprovoked war there. But Afghanistan supported Al Qaeda after a major attack on the US. We had every justification for going in, bombing the place to pieces, and leaving. Successfully rebuilding Afghanistan is optional. It's a good long-term strategy to prevent similar problems from developing again, but unlike Iraq it is not a moral obligation.

The reason Afghanistan brewed terror to begin with was that we liberated their country and then left. Now we're about to do it again.

Iraq is a different beast. You have two heavily armed sides fighting each other for control. This is in stark opposition to Afghanistan which simply have one heavily armed group strong arming the entire country.

We leave Afghanistan to the Taliban, and the people who will suffer will become hardened and potential extremist terrorists. The same can't be said of Iraq where the people just want to fight each other all day.

[Luca Rescigno]

"As you may know, I have just returned from a long - and successful - trip to India and Pakistan. I also made a surprise visit to Afghanistan - which no one knew about - until I did it. Of course, I knew about the surprise the whole time - but I never let on. I got in and out before most of the Afghans even knew I was there. Which is unfortunate, because I'm sure if most of them knew I was there, they'd would have wanted to thank me for fixing their country. You're welcome!"

Will Forte playing George W. Bush

Somehow part of me thinks that the real Bush might actually think the same thing.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by goMac 

The reason Afghanistan brewed terror to begin with was that we liberated their country and then left. Now we're about to do it again.

I don't see how this is correct. "We" never did much liberating or leaving. Unless you're counting the exit of Russia - largely as a function of the insurgent stalemate and loss of political will - as something in which we had a large part, all the Western powers did was supply the weapons for the muhajadeens.

The resulting power vacuum, however, fits perfectly in line with what I think would happen if NATO troops were pulled out. Even their rather weak presence seems to be doing little in the way of restoration; the large majority of the country is under warlord control, and although the Taliban almost completely eliminated opium output at the turn of the millenium they're now right back on top of world national production.

greg

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I don't see how this is correct. "We" never did much liberating or leaving.

Of course we did. We sent CIA operatives in, armed Al Qaeda, and helped them liberate the country from the Soviets. Then with the country in ruins we refused to give any support for rebuilding the country after a war we created.

[tie]

Originally Posted by goMac 

We leave Afghanistan to the Taliban, and the people who will suffer will become hardened and potential extremist terrorists. The same can't be said of Iraq where the people just want to fight each other all day.

I think your own argument is exaggerated, and you are misstating mine. I argued that maintaining the status quo would be fine.

I don't blame Bush for screwing up Afghanistan -- no administration would have been successful. Our nation-building money is better elsewhere, e.g. Africa, where extreme religion isn't such a barrier. Afghanistan is always going to breed terrorists, but I think we can keep them under control. Our current presence there would have been sufficient for stopping the organizational development of Al Qaeda, for example.

[art_director]

People, people...a free and democratic Afghanisatn would mean no more poppy. No more poppy, no more heroin. Don't you see it? Sheeseh.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by tie 

I don't blame Bush for screwing up Afghanistan -- no administration would have been successful. Our nation-building money is better elsewhere, e.g. Africa, where extreme religion isn't such a barrier. Afghanistan is always going to breed terrorists, but I think we can keep them under control. Our current presence there would have been sufficient for stopping the organizational development of Al Qaeda, for example.

The problem with Bush is he simply didn't try at all to stabilize Afghanistan, he basically bombed it and moved on to Iraq. Now Afghanistan is worse than Iraq ever was.