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besson3c · Nov 9, 2006, 12:25 PM

Pelosi also has said that in the first 100 hours of her speakership she will push for action implementing all 9/11 Commission recommendations on national security, raising the minimum wage to $7.25, eliminating corporate subsidies for oil companies, allowing the government to negotiate Medicare drug prices, imposing new restrictions on lobbyists, cutting interest rates on college loans and supporting embryonic stem-cell research.

Many of these issues haven't really been discussed here a whole lot, I thought this would be a possibly interesting change of pace. All of this sounds reasonable to me, although I don't know much about the Medicare issue.

What problems do people have with the (bipartisan) 9/11 commission's recommendations?

Raising the minimum wage? I'd imagine one argument here is that you don't want illegal immigrants making more money, but this sounds like another case of treating the symptoms rather than the problem (much like the fence bill). What about the gap between rich and poor Americans?

Subsidies for oil companies? Duh.. I didn't know there were any. Why the hell are there??

Medicare... like I said, I'm not really sure I understand this issue. I'll have to look into this...

Curtailing lobbyists? Sounds fine to me...

Interest rates on college loans? Don't know how severe a problem this is, but it sounds like a good way to stimulate our national education, which needs it. Since Republicans love tax cuts and speak a lot about how important education is, what is the problem here?

Emybronic stem-cell research... we've discussed this a fair bit, it sounds like there are ways to find middle ground here without all of the moral knee-jerk reactions and such. Obviously, we can all benefit from this research providing it can be done in ways that don't offend senses. Honestly, I'd rather leave this sort of issue up to the people and leave the government's moral interpretations out of the mix, but I suppose this is a tall order...

Shaddim · Nov 9, 2006, 12:38 PM

Bush has the Veto stamp ready, and 2 years as a "lame duck" (aka. has nothing to lose).

This is going to be very entertaining.

hyteckit · Nov 9, 2006, 12:41 PM

The more Pres. Bush vetos on items like raising minimum wage and cutting college student loans, the less likely the Republicans will have any chance of winning anything in 2008.

Dakar² · Nov 9, 2006, 12:42 PM

I'd pay to see a few congressional overrides.

Shaddim · Nov 9, 2006, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar�

I'd pay to see a few congressional overrides.

Not nearly enough votes for that, but the Libs can always dream.

besson3c · Nov 9, 2006, 12:51 PM

So, how do you guys feel about those issues?

I'm honestly confused as to why they are so contentious.

Dakar² · Nov 9, 2006, 12:51 PM

I was thinking more in terms of Repubs wanting separate themselves from Bush.

Shaddim · Nov 9, 2006, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

The more Pres. Bush vetos on items like raising minimum wage and cutting college student loans, the less likely the Republicans will have any chance of winning anything in 2008.

The American public's memory is similar to that of a fruit fly.

Bottom line: If Bush doesn't like it, he'll veto it, and they'll likely not present much that he likes. So it's a stalemate.

Shaddim · Nov 9, 2006, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

I was thinking more in terms of Repubs wanting separate themselves from Bush.

The Dems that were newly elected are more like the Republicans then they are Pelosi.

Dakar² · Nov 9, 2006, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

So, how do you guys feel about those issues?

I'm honestly confused as to why they are so contentious.

Seriously? Ok, I'll play devil's advocate.

Originally Posted by besson3c

Raising the minimum wage? I'd imagine one argument here is that you don't want illegal immigrants making more money, but this sounds like another case of treating the symptoms rather than the problem (much like the fence bill). What about the gap between rich and poor Americans?

Waters down everyone else's wages and slows down the economy.

Originally Posted by besson3c

Subsidies for oil companies? Duh.. I didn't know there were any. Why the hell are there??

Big Business. (I have no argument. This garners them campaign $$$ I figure)

Originally Posted by besson3c

Medicare... like I said, I'm not really sure I understand this issue. I'll have to look into this...

$$$ Bet we're going to fiscal conservatism become en vogue now that the republicans took some losses.

Originally Posted by besson3c

Curtailing lobbyists? Sounds fine to me...

They'll do this the same time they vote down a pay raise for themselves.

Originally Posted by besson3c

Interest rates on college loans? Don't know how severe a problem this is, but it sounds like a good way to stimulate our national education, which needs it. Since Republicans love tax cuts and speak a lot about how important education is, what is the problem here?

Mommy government.

Originally Posted by besson3c

Emybronic stem-cell research... we've discussed this a fair bit, it sounds like there are ways to find middle ground here without all of the moral knee-jerk reactions and such.

Yes, the morality aspect.

Dakar² · Nov 9, 2006, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

The Dems that were newly elected are more like the Republicans then they are Pelosi.

All the more reason to think an override on a bipartisan bill is a possibility.

besson3c · Nov 9, 2006, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

The American public's memory is similar to that of a fruit fly.

Bottom line: If Bush doesn't like it, he'll veto it, and they'll likely not present much that he likes. So it's a stalemate.

So, are you saying that you don't believe what the president is saying now about reaching out and finding common ground?

nonhuman · Nov 9, 2006, 01:07 PM

implementing all 9/11 Commission recommendations on national security

I'm not sure what those recommendations were exactly, but as long as they weren't pointless feel-good ideas or blatant scare tactics like the ones we've had so far it sounds good to me.

raising the minimum wage to $7.25

No thanks, I don' think we need to be driving up inflation just now.

eliminating corporate subsidies for oil companies

Let's get rid of farm subsidies while we're at it.

allowing the government to negotiate Medicare drug prices

As opposed to what? Just taking whatever price we're first quoted? Sure.

imposing new restrictions on lobbyists

How about we just vote out corrupt politicians instead of wasting time and money with more legislation.

cutting interest rates on college loans

Sounds good to me. Will make things easier on recent grads giving them the free time and disposable income to stimulate the economy or even *gasp* save.

supporting embryonic stem-cell research

Sure, why not.

paul w · Nov 9, 2006, 01:07 PM

Plans can be found here: the Right Was Right

Dork. · Nov 9, 2006, 01:09 PM

The main argument against the Minimum Wage is that it makes the cost of labor more expensive. For small businesses who employ hourly help, they have to either find the money to pay that increase from somewhere (i.e. raising prices on goods and services they sell) or reduce the amount of help they employ. Remember, also, that employers have to pay into social security on your behalf, also, and if your pay goes up those payroll taxes go up, too.

The major argument against having the Federal Government negotiate drug prices for Medicare recipients is simply that since Medicare would buy in enormous volume, it would be able to get lower prices, which would give those poor, cash-starved pharmaceutical companies less money for R&D to develop the next male enhancement pill.

I think the only issue regarding reducing Student Loan Interest payments is where the money to offset the loss in income is going to come from.

Rumor · Nov 9, 2006, 01:16 PM

Anyone here trying to live on $5.15 an hour?

BRussell · Nov 9, 2006, 01:16 PM

But wait, I thought Democrats were only unhinged Bush-haters with no positive agenda? That's what I heard in the media! Now you're telling me they had an agenda all along? OMGWTF!

Pierre Capretz II · Nov 9, 2006, 01:17 PM

i'd hit it

Shaddim · Nov 9, 2006, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

So, are you saying that you don't believe what the president is saying now about reaching out and finding common ground?

no, not really.

besson3c · Nov 9, 2006, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by nonhuman

No thanks, I don' think we need to be driving up inflation just now.

I'd bet that rising health costs are driving up inflation at a much faster rate... Perhaps raising minimum wage will help some make these payments to the collection agencies?

besson3c · Nov 9, 2006, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

no, not really.

Sorry, I was pigeonholing you with the far right-wingers in here that would defend Bush's honesty and integrity at every opportunity. My mistake, I forgot that you aren't one of them

besson3c · Nov 9, 2006, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

But wait, I thought Democrats were only unhinged Bush-haters with no positive agenda? That's what I heard in the media! Now you're telling me they had an agenda all along? OMGWTF!

I guess that was only in regards to Iraq? Stay the course, man...

Kerrigan · Nov 9, 2006, 01:31 PM

Bush is going to love cooperating with Democrats on immigration. I'm serious. Republicans will hate Bush after they "reform" immigration.

Shaddim · Nov 9, 2006, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Sorry, I was pigeonholing you with the far right-wingers in here that would defend Bush's honesty and integrity at every opportunity. My mistake, I forgot that you aren't one of them

They're politicians, ie. professional liars.

Dork. · Nov 9, 2006, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'd bet that rising health costs are driving up inflation at a much faster rate... Perhaps raising minimum wage will help some make these payments to the collection agencies?

If anything bankrupts us in the next twenty years, it won't be our adventures in Iraq, it will be our current health care system. We will be out of Iraq eventually, whether it's next week or 5 years from now, but health care costs continue to skyrocket.

Unfortunately, after one particular First Lady's adventure into the debate, it is seen as political suicide to so anything but keep shoveling money into a system that is inherently unstable. Notice how nobody's offered to reform anything in the past six years other than how poor people and old people buy their drugs. Now, something's gonna have to break badly in order for polititians to have the will to fix it. It's part of the reason I haven't voted for that particular individual in either chance I've had to do so, she screwed up the one chance we had to really change things by being too ambitious.

Too bad the other side was too busy demonizing her to learn from her mistakes.

besson3c · Nov 9, 2006, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Dork.

If anything bankrupts us in the next twenty years, it won't be our adventures in Iraq, it will be our current health care system. We will be out of Iraq eventually, whether it's next week or 5 years from now, but health care costs continue to skyrocket.

Unfortunately, after one particular First Lady's adventure into the debate, it is seen as political suicide to so anything but keep shoveling money into a system that is inherently unstable. Notice how nobody's offered to reform anything in the past six years other than how poor people and old people buy their drugs. Now, something's gonna have to break badly in order for polititians to have the will to fix it. It's part of the reason I haven't voted for that particular individual in either chance I've had to do so, she screwed up the one chance we had to really change things by being too ambitious.

Too bad the other side was too busy demonizing her to learn from her mistakes.

At least she tried... Perhaps she bowed out as to not be a liability to her husband and the freshly sworn in Democrats? I don't know either way, just throwing this out there...

subego · Nov 9, 2006, 01:53 PM

I know what the Daily Show's plan is.

Two years of Pelosi reading the Vagina Monologue where she says "I could look at my vagina all day!"

And the beauty of this is, after two years it will seem perfectly normal to hear the Speaker of the House talk about "looking at my vagina", which if I understand the Vagina Monologues correctly, is the whole point.

A good thing to do and a tasty way to do it.

art_director · Nov 9, 2006, 01:57 PM

The healthcare issue is a big one. It's quite possibly the biggest challenge our nation will face as baby boomers hit their elder years.

IMO the federal government should impose some restrictions on the costs associated with healthcare. Among them should be limits on the administrative fees associated with the six statements we get for a doctor's visit -- truly wasteful business.

All of this being said, the last thing I want to see is the federal government controlling healthcare in America. Until they can run a balanced budget and demonstrate some degree of efficiency within government, I'd rather the donkeys and the elephants stay out.

art_director · Nov 9, 2006, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

They're politicians, ie. professional liars.

Wow, maybe you and I can agree on something.

art_director · Nov 9, 2006, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Anyone here trying to live on $5.15 an hour?

I couldn't live on $5.15 / hour back in 1990 much less today.

The Left · Nov 9, 2006, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

So, how do you guys feel about those issues?

I'm honestly confused as to why they are so contentious.

they are only contentious because of the party proposing them.

they are all excellent ideas and in the case of the minimum wage finally being raised after so many years behind it is not even funny.

subego · Nov 9, 2006, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Raising the minimum wage? I'd imagine one argument here is that you don't want illegal immigrants making more money

I thought the appeal of illegal immigrants was that you can pay them less than the minimum wage. You complain, you get deported.

Rumor · Nov 9, 2006, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by art_director

I couldn't live on $5.15 / hour back in 1990 much less today.

Exactly. The major opponents of raising the minimum wage have no idea what it is like to live on it.

art_director · Nov 9, 2006, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by The Left

they are all excellent ideas and in the case of the minimum wage finally being raised after so many years behind it is not even funny.

Just like No Child Left Behind. From the day The Children's Defense Fund came up with the idea (later to be stolen by the Bush administration) it was a smart program. Then, when the government failed to fund it properly, it didn't look so hot.

art_director · Nov 9, 2006, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Exactly. The major opponents of raising the minimum wage have no idea what it is like to live on it.

I don't believe the people advocating the raise understand what it is to live on so little either.

Rumor · Nov 9, 2006, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by art_director

I don't believe the people advocating the raise understand what it is to live on so little either.

True.

zerostar · Nov 9, 2006, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by art_director

No Child Left Behind... Then, when the government failed to fund it properly, it didn't look so hot.

I deal with this program and the head start program, it is a great program and helps lower to middle-class families and children in many ways. Unfortunately we have a "war to fund" and we were "the first to be cut" those are direct quotes.

Thats how it goes though, steal and idea and look good for the photo then zero follow through.

art_director · Nov 9, 2006, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by zerostar

I deal with this program and the head start program, it is a great program and helps lower to middle-class families and children in many ways. Unfortunately we have a "war to fund" and we were "the first to be cut" those are direct quotes.

Thats how it goes though, steal and idea and look good for the photo then zero follow through.

With luck there's money on the way. Hang in there. I have a lot of respect for teachers.

medicineman · Nov 9, 2006, 03:20 PM

9/11 commission's recommendations? - depends on what 'all' means. If it means taking knitting needles away from an 80 yr old grandmother, then no.

Raising the minimum wage? - a rising tide raises all boats. A for-profit business pays salary according to what can be produced for that salary, not what is desired by the employee. You will only push out entry level positions.

Subsidies for oil companies? - I didn't know there were any. Why the hell are there? -agree

Medicare. - At the moment, Medicare reduction is being taken off the provider's end. There is no bidding for product price. They are only squeezing pharmacist, doctor, hospital, et al rates. I can explain fully if you so desire.

Curtailing lobbyists? - Organized lobbying should be illegal.

Interest rates on college loans? - Loan interest isn't the problem, it's guaranteed tuition that's the problem. Another form of insurance. No incentive to reduce tuitions when they are guaranteed by a third party.

Emybronic stem-cell research. - I'm against baby farming to harvest for parts.

Kerrigan · Nov 9, 2006, 03:32 PM

Does anyone know Pelosi's voting record on gay/lesbian/etc issues?

Dork. · Nov 9, 2006, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Does anyone know Pelosi's voting record on gay/lesbian/etc issues?

Dunno, but since her district encompasses most of San Francisco, I would guess there are a fair amount of gays, lesbians, and etceteras in her district who voted for her....

besson3c · Nov 9, 2006, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by medicineman

9/11 commission's recommendations? - depends on what 'all' means. If it means taking knitting needles away from an 80 yr old grandmother, then no.

I might dig them up in a little bit, but I remember them all being sensible and common-sense type ideas, definitely nothing outrageous. I was frankly completely surprised that they were just blown off, because there was nothing in there that seemed like it would be offensive to staunch Republicans.

Medicare. - At the moment, Medicare reduction is being taken off the provider's end. There is no bidding for product price. They are only squeezing pharmacist, doctor, hospital, et al rates. I can explain fully if you so desire.

Sorry, I haven't been living long enough in America to understand systems like Medicare thoroughly... I'll probably just go do some of my own homework so I don't waste your time. I don't even know much about the providers or the basics about how it currently works. I just need to make a trip to the Wikipedia.

Interest rates on college loans? - Loan interest isn't the problem, it's guaranteed tuition that's the problem. Another form of insurance. No incentive to reduce tuitions when they are guaranteed by a third party.

Guaranteed how? I'm not following...

Emybronic stem-cell research. - I'm against baby farming to harvest for parts.

Who was proposing baby farming? That's just creepy.

medicineman · Nov 9, 2006, 06:22 PM

Tuition:
Guaranteed how? I'm not following...

I'll be very general. *Most* college students are not on a COD basis with school. Tuition is 'guaranteed' by various financial instruments, such as student loans, grants, bank loans, scholarships, etc. There are whole departments in county and state colleges devoted to 'aiding' the student into debt so as to pay exorbitant rates. So long as colleges have a goodly supply of customers (students) with financial backing, there is no incentive for them to lower tuition rates. And there are always more college applicants than spaces available. If these financial props were not accessible, there is no way a college could charge as they do on a cash basis. No one would be able to afford it, and the marketplace would work to lower prices, or colleges would be empty.

Kerrigan · Nov 9, 2006, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Dork.

Dunno, but since her district encompasses most of San Francisco, I would guess there are a fair amount of gays, lesbians, and etceteras in her district who voted for her....

Thank you Sir Obvious

Now about that voting record...

Dork. · Nov 9, 2006, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Thank you Sir Obvious

Now about that voting record...

I heard from soemwhere that the Christian Coalition gave her something like a 6% rating, so that's probably good from your perspective.

I'm sure there are websites around that track congressmen's voting records on gay rights issues. I won't look for them myself, I don't want to catch teh gay.

ironknee · Nov 9, 2006, 07:04 PM

pelosi is like a (grand)mother figure...george'll bend

chabig · Nov 9, 2006, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

The more Pres. Bush vetos on items like raising minimum wage and cutting college student loans, the less likely the Republicans will have any chance of winning anything in 2008.

I disagree. While in the minority, Democrats didn't have to do anything other that criticize, criticize, criticize. Now they'll be expected to lead, and when the public sees the direction they're trying to go, there will be a backlash that will help the next Republican presidential candidate.

medicineman · Nov 9, 2006, 10:05 PM

When you talk of government health care, there are things you must keep in mind. Health care is not a profit making business. If you do not incur illness during the year, you gain nothing. Health care can only be an expense. The various plans do not work with actuarial tables. Payments or premiums are not based on a cost/risk basis. When you hire a company like Prudential, Blue Cross, Aetna, etc to implement those plans, you now have the additional cost of those companies plus whatever profit they build into it. If your idea is to lessen costs, that is not the way to do it.

driven · Nov 9, 2006, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Bush is going to love cooperating with Democrats on immigration. I'm serious. Republicans will hate Bush after they "reform" immigration.

What I find humorous ... everyone wanted to stop immigration or at least control it. So ... they vote the party in that is most likely to implement amnisty and make it easier to get in the country. Bush of course will embrace this.

I wonder how this will play out in 2008 once all this is implemented.

BRussell · Nov 9, 2006, 11:06 PM

I saw a poll today - I can't find it now - that said a sizable majority of people wanted "amnesty," i.e., a way for illegal immigrants to become legal, as Bush has proposed.