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Tell your kids that there is a Santa Clause?
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Nov 17, 2006, 07:36 PM
 
My girlfriend and I have been having this conversation recently. We don't have kids, but we expect to someday (after marriage) and one of her friends is fixed that her kids aren't going to have Santa Clause. A big part of it has to do with Christmas being a holiday really about Christ, but that's not so much what I want to discuss here. The other part of it is about telling your kids that someone is giving them big expensive presents, rather than just telling them that you purchased the gifts for them, and allowing your children to be grateful to you, rather than a myth.

It's something that I've never really considered before. I figured I would always do the Santa Clause thing. Just because it's fun, and magical, and etc etc.

But after giving it some thought, I'm not sure there's a whole lot of value (other than commercial) in continuing Santa. (Excepting maybe that it would feel weird without him)

My girlfriend did say that if we do Santa, then I actually have to give my kids coal one year...

What do you guys think?
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Nov 17, 2006, 07:43 PM
 
If/when I have kids, I don't plan on lying to them. They'll hear nothing but the truth from me: that the world was created in 14 days by a merciless and cruel rabbit who, once a year at the Vernal Equinox, sneaks from yard to yard hiding eggs that, if not found and destroyed, will hatch into evil platypi that kill children in their sleep.
( Last edited by nonhuman; Nov 17, 2006 at 08:01 PM. Reason: Spring has an Equinox, not a Solstice... duh...)
     
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Nov 17, 2006, 07:52 PM
 
All hail the merciless and cruel rabbit
     
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Nov 17, 2006, 07:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
All hail the merciless and cruel rabbit
His name is Floppy.
     
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Nov 17, 2006, 07:57 PM
 
Do you think kids give a **** about the background story? All they know is they want gifts and they better get em'. As a kid I didn't care if Hitler came down my chimney as long as he brought Transformers.


If you play it on the whole "teaching them value" level all they will learn is they their friends got presents and they didn't. And naturally they will hate you for it.

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Nov 17, 2006, 08:47 PM
 
You honestly think that telling them is a bad idea? You obviously do not want your kids to have any imagination whatsoever if you do crap like that, its ok to lie to them if it will benefit them later when they thank you for allowing them to have a creative mind when they get older, which is what allows for a well rounded person, not just good grades. Like if my friend said he was going to rob a store, I would lie to him and tell him it is open late if it would help him make a better decision, like that, its not cruel. If you don't want to tell them the story of Santa or the Kwanzaabot (see Futurama for reference) or the easter buny etc, you're just lazy and/or don't care.

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Nov 17, 2006, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by PowerPc = Pwnage View Post
You honestly think that telling them is a bad idea? You obviously do not want your kids to have any imagination whatsoever if you do crap like that, its ok to lie to them if it will benefit them later when they thank you for allowing them to have a creative mind when they get older, which is what allows for a well rounded person, not just good grades. Like if my friend said he was going to rob a store, I would lie to him and tell him it is open late if it would help him make a better decision, like that, its not cruel. If you don't want to tell them the story of Santa or the Kwanzaabot (see Futurama for reference) or the easter buny etc, you're just lazy and/or don't care.


Grow up. It is possible for kids to be imaginative without lying to them. I never remember my parents pushing Santa that much, but I remember my mom writing 'From: Santa' on the tags when I was old enough to recognize her handwriting and know it was her, it was more of a joke by then.
     
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Nov 17, 2006, 09:05 PM
 
You never remember your parents pushing santa so much? Maybe that explains your point of view on the subject, and why you're an engineer, not an artist.

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Nov 17, 2006, 09:42 PM
 
My kids get most of their presents from us (duh!), but Santa brings the really cool toys.
     
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Nov 17, 2006, 09:45 PM
 
I think Santa is fun. By the time they know who Santa is- happens to be about the same age they MIGHT actually be thankful for a gift and who gave it to them. Santa is just a way to get through the thankless years. Might as well make them fun.
     
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Nov 17, 2006, 10:08 PM
 
I have two issues with satan clause, err I mean santa clause.

First we (my and my wife) value honesty and we both cannot reconcile the fact that we are lying and in a few years we'll have to explain that in this instance it was ok to lie. That doens't seem to jive with us. If we expect out kids to be honest then we need to be.

The second and more important reason why we won't be telling our girls about santa clause and that's because its Christmas not Santamas. The reason for the holiday is to celebrate the birth of Christ and we want to focus on that and not the commercialization, and materialism that is currently Christmas.
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Nov 17, 2006, 10:17 PM
 
My parents always told me about Santa, but as soon as I asked them if Santa was real or if it was just a legend, they told me the truth. I think that's a good way to preserve the fun without being dishonest.
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Nov 17, 2006, 10:24 PM
 
Christmas is a pagen holiday. Damn Christians took it over and changed it into a shopping extravaganza.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
ex‧trav‧a‧gan‧za  [ik-strav-uh-gan-zuh] Pronunciation Key
–noun
1. a musical or dramatic composition or production, as comic opera or musical comedy, marked by a loose structure, a frivolous theme, and elaborate costuming and staging.
2. any lavish or opulent show, event, assemblage, etc.: an extravaganza of new housewares on the twelfth floor.
( Last edited by Atomic Rooster; Nov 17, 2006 at 11:54 PM. )
     
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Nov 17, 2006, 10:26 PM
 
So ya wanna tell your kids all about Santa and what a jolly old fella he is, huh.

Go ahead, tell 'em.

But one day this will be your kid, and then you'll have some 'splainin to do !

Gee, I hope they're friendly..........
     
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Nov 17, 2006, 10:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by PowerPc = Pwnage View Post
You never remember your parents pushing santa so much? Maybe that explains your point of view on the subject, and why you're an engineer, not an artist.
Show me more than your own conjecture to back this up and I'll believe you. BTW neither of my sisters are engineers. I took a liking to Legos and Erector sets as a young kid. Those involve TONS of creativity and I really like stuff like that...hence I'm going into Mechanical Engineering.
     
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Nov 17, 2006, 10:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
As a kid I didn't care if Hitler came down my chimney as long as he brought Transformers.
Hitler did come down my chimnet one year.

He brought me Go-Bots.

So I kicked him in the nuts.
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Nov 17, 2006, 11:32 PM
 
We are simply explaining it in the historical context of who Santa Claus is originated from. Ask my daughter why we celebrate Christmas and she'll say "It's jesus' birthday." Ask her why we celebrate Jesus' birthday and she'll say "Because he loves us."

We explain Santa to her as a tradition based upon the historical context of a man who gave children gifts based upon their need.

She's three. She has a better grasp on this stuff than most 20 year olds.
     
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Nov 17, 2006, 11:39 PM
 
Stop spelling it Santa Clause for a start, that's a title of a crappy movie trilogy.

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Nov 17, 2006, 11:49 PM
 
But you don't explain to her that celebrating Jesus' birthday arbitrarily on December 25th as a tradition based upon the historical context of it coinciding with pre-christian pagan winter and sun celebrations like Yule and Saturnalia by Pope Julius I to ease the spread of Christianity?

After all, she could grasp that better than most twenty year olds I guess

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Nov 18, 2006, 12:52 AM
 
Santa only brought me socks and underwear...
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 01:16 AM
 
have to explain the non-existance of one mythical man, might as well get it over with and explain another

Mystical, magical, amazing! | Part 2 | The spread of Christianity is our goal. -Railroader
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 02:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Certainly we will. To do otherwise would be lying to her. I am not your typical American.

No one knows the actual day/date of Jesus' birth, so we adopted the days celebrated by pagans to ease their conversion. I see nothing wrong with that.

The spread of Christianity is our goal.
Yes. Jesus Camp made that painfully clear. Sheesh.

At least you're not hypocritical

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Nov 18, 2006, 02:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
Santa only brought me socks and underwear...
Indeed. Santa is awesome for pawning off the crap, but useful presents. And when they outgrow Santa, you can always blame it on the family pet

Yes, that really happened to me.

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Nov 18, 2006, 02:59 AM
 
Nonhuman, please, oh please tell us more about the merciless bunny! My sister's best friend says he's not real, but I believe in him.
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 05:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Stop spelling it Santa Clause for a start, that's a title of a crappy movie trilogy.
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 08:57 AM
 
Railroad ... I like the approach you are taking .. Santa (or St. Nick who really was the start of it) is based on giving .. whether it was pagan or whatever it doesn't matter.

SirCastor .,, you can still make it magical without the commercialism(?). If you don't want the "Santaism" then the spirit of "giving" just like Jesus preaches can still keep the magic there.

Erik - if you don't believe that's fine. We all are different and you do make a valid point from you aspect.

Nonhuman - I want to hear more about Floppy. That sounds like a neat crazy rabbit!

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Nov 18, 2006, 09:03 AM
 
What happens when Santa is naughty?



     
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Nov 18, 2006, 10:32 AM
 
I wouldn't personally, but his (soon to be their ) mother wants to, so I'll give it a shot. I was never told about Santa. Certainly not that he's real. I'll be very interested to learn if Santa actually adds anything to the equation.


At least she's with me about not perpetuating ancient mythical all-powerful creatures.
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 10:38 AM
 
Okay, I'm sorry about the spelling. It was a typo, honestly.
Anyway. Telling your kids about Santa has nothing to do with fostering Creativity or imagination in them. That's silly. For 11 months out of the year, as a child, I was extremely creative, and that had nothing to do with Santa Claus. Nothing.

Let me note again that this is/was not meant to be a conversation about Christmas being a Christian and/or Pagan Holiday. It's about the Santa issue.

I remember when I was a kid that Fox had a special on "Is Santa Real?".
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Nov 18, 2006, 11:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by design219 View Post
Nonhuman, please, oh please tell us more about the merciless bunny! My sister's best friend says he's not real, but I believe in him.
Originally Posted by USB HUB View Post
Nonhuman - I want to hear more about Floppy. That sounds like a neat crazy rabbit!
Hmm, maybe I'll start a blog with which to reveal the holy gospels of Floppy as they are communicated to me directly by Him of the Twitching Pink Nose.
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by SirCastor View Post
Okay, I'm sorry about the spelling. It was a typo, honestly.
Anyway. Telling your kids about Santa has nothing to do with fostering Creativity or imagination in them. That's silly. For 11 months out of the year, as a child, I was extremely creative, and that had nothing to do with Santa Claus. Nothing.

Let me note again that this is/was not meant to be a conversation about Christmas being a Christian and/or Pagan Holiday. It's about the Santa issue.

I remember when I was a kid that Fox had a special on "Is Santa Real?".
I can only look at it from my perspective. I grew up in a Christian household. And Christmas was an important holiday for many reasons. (The "Christianity" part never really took for me... but that's a different topic for another day.) However I remember the joy of looking forward to Christmas and of Santa Claus. The spirit of giving was stressed. And we were always taught to give of ourselves especially during the holiday season. I certainly have no recollection of trying to reconcile Santa vs. Jesus as a child. I don't feel the "deception" of Santa had an adverse affect on me at all. I think it's harmless fun! But to each his own. If you don't feel you can reconcile the whole thing... then don't do it... it's your choice.
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Hmm, maybe I'll start a blog with which to reveal the holy gospels of Floppy as they are communicated to me directly by Him of the Twitching Pink Nose.
when you finish, can i translate it then market it to the masses using His fear (love)?

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Nov 18, 2006, 11:33 AM
 
AHAHH A iGET it!

YOU GUYS ARE MAKING FUN OF THE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE BY USING BUNNIES!1

CAN I BEE LEET AND CONDESCENDING TOO?

AHHHAHAHA YES YOU DID!
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 12:40 PM
 
From the Internet somewhere (it was last year, I don't really remember where and it might have even been on this forum):

Son: "Dad, I think I'm old enough to know now. Is there a Santa Clause?"

Not being the world's fastest thinker, I stalled for time.

Me: "OK, I agree that you're old enough. But before I tell you, I have a question for you. You see, the truth is a dangerous gift. Once you know something, you can't un-know it. Once you know the truth about Santa Clause, you will never again understand and relate to him as you do now.
So my question is: are you sure you want to know?"

Brief pause.

Son: "Yes. I want to know."

Me: "OK, I'll tell you: Yes, there IS a Santa Clause."

Son: "Really?"

Me: "Yes, really, but he's not an old man with a beard in a red suit.
That's just what we tell kids. You see, kids are too young to understand the true nature of Santa Clause, so we explain it to them in a way that they can understand. The truth about Santa Clause is that he's not a person at all; he's an idea. Think of all those presents Santa gave you over the years. I actually bought those myself. I watched you open them.
And did it bother me that you didn't thank me? Of course not! In fact it gave me great pleasure. You see, Santa Clause is THE IDEA OF GIVING FOR THE SAKE OF GIVING, without thought of thanks or acknowledgement. When I saw that woman collapse on the subway last week and called for help, I knew that she'd never know that it was me that summoned the ambulance. I was being Santa Clause when I did that."

Son: "Oh."

Me: "So now that you know, you're part of it. You have to be Santa Clause too now. That means you can never tell a young kid the secret, and you have to help us select Santa presents for them, and most importantly, you have to look for opportunities to help people. Got it?"
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by forkies View Post
have to explain the non-existance of one mythical man, might as well get it over with and explain another
Santa AND the Great pumpkin?
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by wallinbl View Post
From the Internet somewhere (it was last year, I don't really remember where and it might have even been on this forum):
THERE IS NO E IN SANTA CLAUS. DUMBASS AMERICANS.
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 12:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
AHAHH A iGET it!

YOU GUYS ARE MAKING FUN OF THE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE BY USING BUNNIES!1

CAN I BEE LEET AND CONDESCENDING TOO?

AHHHAHAHA YES YOU DID!
Eh.... I was more making fun of the whole Santa Claus thing, tying in the Easter Bunny and pagan ideology with the boogey man, &c. to poke fun at the way people make up ridiculous stories for their children. Then, I suppose, it did expand to be a little more aimed at religion, but that wasn't really my original intention. The whole 'gospel' thing just came about because the more I thought about my original post, the more it occurred to me that it could be expanded into an entire humorous mythology.
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 01:05 PM
 
I was speaking about forkies comment.
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
I was speaking about forkies comment.
Oh. I interpreted 'you guys ... using bunnies' to include me. Never mindn then.
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 01:56 PM
 
SirCastor, that's an interesting decision. I grew up understanding that Christmas was about Christ. Santa Claus was just part of the whole spirit of giving. I also has Los Reyes Magos (the three wise kings), which came later in January and dropped a present or two at my grandmother's house. Some people even have el niño Jesus (baby Jesus) instead of Santa Claus in his role, though I never did.

I don't think that a "lie" intended to bring joy and indulge the imagination is necessarily inherently wrong, though I do think sometimes people go too far. I watched some special on TV when I was a kid too, and they had this part about how the U.S. military had detected an unknown in their airspace flying at an extremely high velocity, with the insinuation that this was Santa Claus.

<sigh>

And for "goodness sake", if your kid asks you if Santa Claus is real and he's out of elementary school, tell him the truth!
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 02:48 PM
 
Hmm, a thread about a quasi-religious holiday got ugly.

I am completely flabbergasted.

I see no need or benefit to be had from lying to kids. Not being religious either I see no need to justify it in a religious context. You give gifts and its a happy time. I don't see how a fat white guy or a far removed religion add anything to it for the kids.
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Nov 18, 2006, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Yes. Jesus Camp made that painfully clear. Sheesh.

At least you're not hypocritical
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Nov 18, 2006, 03:27 PM
 
The time of really believing in Santa is so brief. Some kid told me the truth in 1st grade, but I didn't want to believe them. When I knew for sure, I didn't get mad at my folks, I wasn't angry that they rattled jingle bells in the attic or put bootprints of ash on the carpet out of the chimney. Those were magical memories. And when I was old enough to have money, I started slipping things into mom and dad's stocking too.

It's not a lie, it's a story. Santa gives presents to celebrate Christ. (or Macy's, depending on your view.) We do the Santa thing, but it was a conversation because my husband didnt grow up Christian and it was a strange idea to him. It's something I want my kids to have.

Like wallinbl posted:

Me: "So now that you know, you're part of it. You have to be Santa Claus too now. That means you can never tell a young kid the secret, and you have to help us select Santa presents for them, and most importantly, you have to look for opportunities to help people. Got it?"
     
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Nov 18, 2006, 03:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by SirCastor View Post
My girlfriend and I have been having this conversation recently. We don't have kids, but we expect to someday (after marriage) and one of her friends is fixed that her kids aren't going to have Santa Clause. A big part of it has to do with Christmas being a holiday really about Christ, but that's not so much what I want to discuss here. The other part of it is about telling your kids that someone is giving them big expensive presents, rather than just telling them that you purchased the gifts for them, and allowing your children to be grateful to you, rather than a myth.

It's something that I've never really considered before. I figured I would always do the Santa Clause thing. Just because it's fun, and magical, and etc etc.

But after giving it some thought, I'm not sure there's a whole lot of value (other than commercial) in continuing Santa. (Excepting maybe that it would feel weird without him)

My girlfriend did say that if we do Santa, then I actually have to give my kids coal one year...

What do you guys think?
i knew early on there was not 'santa' as i helped my dad assemble such things as my bike, etc. so, don't feed into the myth.

if you do, just include it as part of the holidays like the music or decorations.
     
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Nov 19, 2006, 09:17 AM
 
My Hanukkah Harry can kick your Santa's ass.
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Nov 19, 2006, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Angus_D View Post
THERE IS NO E IN SANTA CLAUS. DUMBASS AMERICANS.
Get over yourself, jackass. It was a copy & paste of the original. For all you or I know, the original author was from London, so blasting someone's ethnicity is a bit foolish.
     
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Nov 19, 2006, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Hmm, maybe I'll start a blog with which to reveal the holy gospels of Floppy as they are communicated to me directly by Him of the Twitching Pink Nose.
I hope it doesn't involve paying tithing to support His work on Earth...

We let our kids believe what they want about Santa, but if they ask, we tell them the truth. But we do live in a post-modern age now, so what is "truth" anyway. I mean, just because your parents destroyed Santa by giving you presents doesn't mean he doesn't exist. In the immortal words of Lucinda in Plan 10 From Outer Space, "just because he made it up, doesn't mean it's not true."
     
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Nov 19, 2006, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by ink View Post
I hope it doesn't involve paying tithing to support His work on Earth...
If He desireth that I shall lead and be supported by a flock of his peeps, then who am I, His humble servant, to argue?
     
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Nov 19, 2006, 12:08 PM
 

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Nov 19, 2006, 12:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by wallinbl View Post
Get over yourself, jackass. It was a copy & paste of the original. For all you or I know, the original author was from London, so blasting someone's ethnicity is a bit foolish.
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