[macintologist]

As an American who deeply cares about freedom in this country, every time someone brings up a non-sequitur about Israel/Palestine, it seems so irrelevant. I was talking to a conservative and he brought up out of nowhere the point that Israel is always blamed for evereything. Israel can never do enough to please the Palestinians/Arabs in their demands for more land.

So I was thinking... ok.. that may be true but I fail to see the relevance? What does that have to do with freedom in America?

Ideally the US government would stop handing out foreign aid and block grants to foreign governments/militaries. Then every time Israel/Palestine killed each other at least it wouldn't have been from some of my money being stolen from me and given to them.

Ok, sorry for the rant, but seriously, I'm starting to see these "hot issues" such as Israel/Palestine as completely irrelevant to me as an American. I know my money is stolen and sent to aid the Israeli army, but other than that, how is it relevant? I think hardly at all, as an American. If you're Israeli or Jewish, then of course it would be relevant, but I don't get why Americans, from the ultra-conservative war mongers all the way to the anti-war loony liberals get so worked up on Israel/Palestine. Just look at this American website: http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com

[marden]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

As an American who deeply cares about freedom in this country, every time someone brings up a non-sequitur about Israel/Palestine, it seems so irrelevant. I was talking to a conservative and he brought up out of nowhere the point that Israel is always blamed for evereything. Israel can never do enough to please the Palestinians/Arabs in their demands for more land.

So I was thinking... ok.. that may be true but I fail to see the relevance? What does that have to do with freedom in America?

Ideally the US government would stop handing out foreign aid and block grants to foreign governments/militaries. Then every time Israel/Palestine killed each other at least it wouldn't have been from some of my money being stolen from me and given to them.

Ok, sorry for the rant, but seriously, I'm starting to see these "hot issues" such as Israel/Palestine as completely irrelevant to me as an American. I know my money is stolen and sent to aid the Israeli army, but other than that, how is it relevant? I think hardly at all, as an American. If you're Israeli or Jewish, then of course it would be relevant, but I don't get why Americans, from the ultra-conservative war mongers all the way to the anti-war loony liberals get so worked up on Israel/Palestine. Just look at this American website: http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com

It's like Burma wasn't important in the Second World War. Or the Aleutians. Or South America.

All were different fronts in the same war.

Who do the Palestinians and Iranians call the Little Satan? Israel.

Who do the call the Great Satan? The USA.

If the Little Satan is ever defeated who comes next on their hit list? (Although nothing says that we can't both be hit at the same time or out of sequence.)

[Wiskedjak]

I agree. I also have a difficult time understanding the obsession with Israel. Let Israel and the Arabs resolve their own issues. Why do Palestinians and Iranians call Israel and the US "Little Satan" and "Great Satan"? Possibly because the US is so obsessed with Israel. Take the US out of the equation, and the Arabs likely wouldn't care less about the US.

And, is it me, or is this obsession somewhat recent? My father is an ultra-conservative-American wannabe. When I was a child he was quite anti-Semitic ... bordering on being a holocaust denier. Now, he sounds like Abe.

[vmarks]

It is relevant for perhaps two reasons:

1) America has an ally in Israel, and the America I know doesn't desert her allies. Not when America disagrees with them, such as France of late, or when they are in tough times, such as Israel.

2) In a war against terror, it makes sense to pay close attention to Israel as it has been fighting very similar incarnations of the terrorists America now faces in the Global War on Terror.

To be sure, one of the great "crimes" of America in Arab eyes remains its support of Israel. Nor is there any doubt from what they say to one another in Arabic (as opposed to what their diplomats say in English, French or German) that wiping Israel off the face of the map is still one of the major hopes of Arabs everywhere--and of most non-Arab Middle Eastern Muslims like the Iranians as well.

Ab'd Al-Mun'im Murad, a columnist in Al-Akhbar, a daily newspaper sponsored by the Egyptian government, wrote: "The conflict that we call the Arab-Israeli conflict is, in truth an Arab conflict with Western, and particularly American, colonialism. The U.S. treats [the Arabs] as it treated the slaves inside the American continent. To this end, [the U.S.] is helped by the smaller enemy, and I mean Israel."

Nor was this unusually candid acknowledgment the end of it. "The issue," declared the same writer in another piece, "no longer concerns the Israeli-Arab conflict. The real issue is the Arab-American conflict--Arabs must understand that the U.S. is not 'the American friend'--and its task, past, present, and future, is [to impose] hegemony on the world, primarily on the Middle East and the Arab world."

Then, in a third piece, also published in late August, Mr. Murad gave us an inkling of the reciprocal "task" he had in mind to be performed on America: "The Statue of Liberty, in New York Harbor, must be destroyed because of . . . the idiotic American policy that goes from disgrace to disgrace in the swamp of bias and blind fanaticism. . . . The age of the American collapse has begun."

-- OpinionJournal - Extra

The truth is that even in Israel's absence, America would still be under attack by terrorists.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I agree. I also have a difficult time understanding the obsession with Israel. Let Israel and the Arabs resolve their own issues. Why do Palestinians and Iranians call Israel and the US "Little Satan" and "Great Satan"? Possibly because the US is so obsessed with Israel. Take the US out of the equation, and the Arabs likely wouldn't care less about the US.

And, is it me, or is this obsession somewhat recent? My father is an ultra-conservative-American wannabe. When I was a child he was quite anti-Semitic ... bordering on being a holocaust denier. Now, he sounds like Abe.

Have you asked you father about this, about what changed his opinion? What informed him to think differently?

Mark Twain is reputed to have said that when he was a young man he though this father to be stupid, but by the time he turned 20 he was surprised at how much the old man had learned.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I agree. I also have a difficult time understanding the obsession with Israel. Let Israel and the Arabs resolve their own issues. Why do Palestinians and Iranians call Israel and the US "Little Satan" and "Great Satan"? Possibly because the US is so obsessed with Israel. Take the US out of the equation, and the Arabs likely wouldn't care less about the US.

And, is it me, or is this obsession somewhat recent? My father is an ultra-conservative-American wannabe. When I was a child he was quite anti-Semitic ... bordering on being a holocaust denier. Now, he sounds like Abe.

If I were you I would wonder why the US, which wants peace between the parties, felt it could no longer continue supporting the Palestinians unless they adopted certain positions which are crucial to there being peace.

So, it not that the US is OBSESSED with Israel, it's that fairness and peace can only be achieved if the Palestinians give up their hatred in exchange for peace.

They stand resolutely in the way of peace.

Your father sounds like a very wise man.

It seems you have benefited from his smarts. Although you do your best to conceal it.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

As an American who deeply cares about freedom in this country, every time someone brings up a non-sequitur about Israel/Palestine, it seems so irrelevant. I was talking to a conservative and he brought up out of nowhere the point that Israel is always blamed for evereything. Israel can never do enough to please the Palestinians/Arabs in their demands for more land.

So I was thinking... ok.. that may be true but I fail to see the relevance? What does that have to do with freedom in America?

Many American conservatives are into Israel for, shall we say, theological reasons. Not all, but you can't ignore the fact that many Americans, mostly conservatives, believe in the apocalypse and that its beginnings are already under way in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

But I believe it is important. It is at the root, IMO, of the conflict between Islam and the West. If it could be resolved, it would go a long way towards taking much of the air out of radical Islamism.

[subego]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

1) America has an ally in Israel, and the America I know doesn't desert her allies. Not when America disagrees with them, such as France of late, or when they are in tough times, such as Israel.

This is the key. And, unlike France, Israel has been a damn good ally on top of it.

Israel does some sketchy things, but they're not half as sketchy as the things its neighbors do. People over there play dirty pool. The fact that Israel fights this and can still remain a democracy should be lauded. Likewise, they are in a position to and have kicked the ass of everyone in the region and are still willing to parley. Another laudable trait.

Why wouldn't we want to go to the mat for this?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by marden 

If I were you I would wonder why the US, which wants peace between the parties, felt it could no longer continue supporting the Palestinians unless they adopted certain positions which are crucial to there being peace.

So, it not that the US is OBSESSED with Israel, it's that fairness and peace can only be achieved if the Palestinians give up their hatred in exchange for peace.

I do wonder why the US puts so much more effort into the Israel/Palestine situation than into almost any other conflict. Why, for example, is the US not as interested in the India/Pakistan situation, where far more lives are at stake?

[Spliffdaddy]

Because Israel is perhaps our only true ally. India and Pakistan are not.

[Chuckit]

We aren't strongly allied with either India or Pakistan, and it's also costing far fewer lives at the moment.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Let Israel and the Arabs resolve their own issues.

That's fine if everyone else would stay out of it, but they won't. Israel vs. the Palestinians would be a non-contest. Israel would crush them swiftly. But we all know the moment the fight begins, Iran, Syria, and their proxies will race to aid the Palestinians. At that point, it's gonna be (Israel + allies) vs (Palestinians + allies).

Unless we convince the world to turn a cold shoulder to Israel's potential use of nukes. Then Israel could pretty much dust everyone in the Middle East. That would be letting them resolve their own issues.

Are you good to go with Israel nuking all their regional enemies? If not, then as one of their few allies, we need to stand by them. The US doesn't bail on allies in time of need.

[macintologist]

This thread is turning into exactly what I'm talking about. All of a sudden the Israel/Palestine conflict is made so relevant as to almost be a national debate of some sorts. Why can't this government simply not make any entangling alliances the good ol' Jeffersonian way and then we won't be forced to defend all our controversial allies all around the world at the expense of our own freedoms.

Illustrates exactly what I'm talking about -> CNN.com - Bush vows 'whatever it takes' to defend Taiwan - April 25, 2001

[vmarks]

Jefferson didn't have a position on entangling alliances.

That was George Washington's parting speech.

It's a little late to be talking about not having entangling alliances - there's the UN, NATO, G8, IMF, WIPO, WTO, and numerous other alliances that the US has entangled itself in. After all, it was just Washington's advice, not law, so here we are.

Still, besides brushing up on your history of US presidents, you should also look into the history of the Barbary Wars, which were fought under Jefferson's leadership. And then consider what similarities exist between it and today's wars fought by Israel.

[marden]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

This thread is turning into exactly what I'm talking about. All of a sudden the Israel/Palestine conflict is made so relevant as to almost be a national debate of some sorts. Why can't this government simply not make any entangling alliances the good ol' Jeffersonian way and then we won't be forced to defend all our controversial allies all around the world at the expense of our own freedoms.

Illustrates exactly what I'm talking about -> CNN.com - Bush vows 'whatever it takes' to defend Taiwan - April 25, 2001

When we tried to ignore the plight of the Jews to stay neutral we allowed a much worse danger to grow unopposed.

If we believe that freedom and democracy is the best and natural way to live we must recognize that as others see our example they will want some for themselves but if we do not use our wisdom and might to stand up with those who would follow our example then maybe freedom and democracy isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Or maybe we are just too selfish to be the leader of the free world.

Or maybe just too stupid.

If the events of the past 60 years have shown us anything it is that in concert with a committed group of allies we are stronger and able to more effectively act on the side of right.

If we do not support our allies we will not be able to expect them to support us.
And one day, instead of using diplomacy to achieve our foreign policy goals we will be reduced to using violence and the threat of violence.

And you would LOVE that to happen, wouldn't you, macintologist?

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Jefferson didn't have a position on entangling alliances.

That was George Washington's parting speech.

It's a little late to be talking about not having entangling alliances - there's the UN, NATO, G8, IMF, WIPO, WTO, and numerous other alliances that the US has entangled itself in. After all, it was just Washington's advice, not law, so here we are.

Still, besides brushing up on your history of US presidents, you should also look into the history of the Barbary Wars, which were fought under Jefferson's leadership. And then consider what similarities exist between it and today's wars fought by Israel.

Sorry but Jefferson has a famous quote on the matter

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none." -- Thomas Jefferson

(pwned)

The Barbary Wars prove that power corrupts. Jefferson was a great thinker who believed in free speech, free religion, limited gov't, etc. However even great thinkers like Jefferson and Madison, once they become president, can be corrupted by the power of that office, and begin to violate the same Constitution they enacted. It just shows how the Constitution is a failed experiment.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Sorry but Jefferson has a famous quote on the matter

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none." -- Thomas Jefferson

(pwned)

The Barbary Wars prove that power corrupts. Jefferson was a great thinker who believed in free speech, free religion, limited gov't, etc. However even great thinkers like Jefferson and Madison, once they become president, can be corrupted by the power of that office, and begin to violate the same Constitution they enacted. It just shows how the Constitution is a failed experiment.

Who was the enemy in the Barbary wars? What does that enemy have in common with today's enemy? Why is that?

Jefferson said that quote on March 4, 1801: "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none." -- but in the end, it was just continuity with Washington's exit speech. - Washington's Farewell Address of 1796, warning not to "entangle our peace and prosperity," and to "steer clear of permanent alliances."

Yet in 1792, a year before the Neutrality Proclamation, Washington offered "foreign aid" to Haiti, that nation which has become the "basket case" of the Western Hemisphere, despite, or because of, over two centuries of intervention, occupation and aid.

[marden]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Who was the enemy in the Barbary wars? What does that enemy have in common with today's enemy? Why is that?

Jefferson said that quote on March 4, 1801: "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none." -- but in the end, it was just continuity with Washington's exit speech. - Washington's Farewell Address of 1796, warning not to "entangle our peace and prosperity," and to "steer clear of permanent alliances."

Yet in 1792, a year before the Neutrality Proclamation, Washington offered "foreign aid" to Haiti, that nation which has become the "basket case" of the Western Hemisphere, despite, or because of, over two centuries of intervention, occupation and aid.

[SSharon]

Aside from being such a friendly ally, does anyone think the US also appreciates the medical and scientific advances that come from Israel? Surely Apple like those new intel processors they design there.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

Aside from being such a friendly ally, does anyone think the US also appreciates the medical and scientific advances that come from Israel? Surely Apple like those new intel processors they design there.

Completely irrelevant since I never called for an embargo on trade from Israeli private enterprise. I personally have benefited from Israeli medical technology. I've liked most of the Israelis I've met and am impressed with their academics and entrepreneurship.

What I have a problem with is this government giving billions of dollars in block grants to the Israeli government. I have NO problem with individuals voluntarily contributing their own money to Israel in whatever fashion in whatever amount they wish. Do you understand this difference?

[marden]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Completely irrelevant since I never called for an embargo on trade from Israeli private enterprise. I personally have benefited from Israeli medical technology. I've liked most of the Israelis I've met and am impressed with their academics and entrepreneurship.

What I have a problem with is this government giving billions of dollars in block grants to the Israeli government. I have NO problem with individuals voluntarily contributing their own money to Israel in whatever fashion in whatever amount they wish. Do you understand this difference?

Here's how to stop the US from giving so much to Israel:

For the Palestinian Authority and all the Arab & Muslim nations/governments to stop trying to destroy it.

How much aid do we give the UK?

As far as I know, none.

France and Germany and Spain and the Scandinavian nations haven't any plans to wipe GB off the map.

If they did and the UK needed our help, I'd support helping them.