[marden]

MTV2: The Vice (Films) Guide To Travel: Pakistan Gun Market

MTV2 is whacked. Vice Magazine is whacked. Vice Films is whacked. The Vice Guide to Travel is WHACKED!

There is a segment where they visit Pakistan and the largest illegal gun market in the world.

http://www.viceland.com/guidetotravel/

See where guns are being made in conditions we'd call squalid. 1,000 new guns produced a day.

Every day.

For the past 70 years.

(Click on the 4th image from the left with the AK-47 rounds)



The other stories are equally whacked. Clicking any story only gets you a short clip, but you'll get the message.

Or check out their MYSPACE site.

http://www.myspace.com/vicedvd

The Illegal Gun Markets of Pakistan

It is surprising how clean those guns look.

So, bottom line, when you talk about the $$ that US arms manufacturers earn by producing & selling arms, this is the other end of that same whipping stick. And the people in Pakistan who do it are no more or less evil than the Americans who do the same thing.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by marden 

So, bottom line, when you talk about the $$ that US arms manufacturers earn by producing & selling arms, this is the other end of that same whipping stick. And the people in Pakistan who do it are no more or less evil than the Americans who do the same thing.

Agreed, although by that rationale there are far, far, far fewer evil people in Pakistan than in the US. The US exports more arms than the next 14 countries put together!

[marden]

Originally Posted by Troll 

Agreed, although by that rationale there are far, far, far fewer evil people in Pakistan than in the US. The US exports more arms than the next 14 countries put together!

Well that would be a very interesting study. Which was responsible for more ACTUAL deaths, the US arms industry or the lo/lower tech companies in the next 14 countries, as you put it.

Without ANY of the facts, I'd argue that the nations with nothing to lose by going to war might war more frequently or more readily. These nations might not have much money to spend on armaments and so they might buy from some of the companies in those 14 other countries (as an example) because the US arms are more expensive.

That would mean that the more expensive US made arms and systems are bought by richer nations which can afford the best. And these nations you don't see at war as much.

Therefore, I might argue that more people die because of the arms produced in armories such as the one in the clip, than from US arms makers.

[subego]

I know I've heard the Pakistanis can make an AK out of old sheet metal and a piece of pipe.

Edit: Just put it in the TiVo now.

[subego]

Originally Posted by marden 

Well that would be a very interesting study. Which was responsible for more ACTUAL deaths, the US arms industry or the lo/lower tech companies in the next 14 countries, as you put it.

You would have to think that it's the Soviet designed stuff that does the most killing.

IOW, you can't make an M16 with sheet metal and bar stock.

We also don't make RPGs.

[marden]

Originally Posted by subego 

You would have to think that it's the Soviet designed stuff that does the most killing.

IOW, you can't make an M16 with sheet metal and bar stock.

We also don't make RPGs.

Precisely.

Dear Readers,

I am starting to find that because our citizens don't or can't think well or because they are socially disinclined to defend America or our way of life, or because we are just plain lazy, we allow our detractors, our opponents or our enemies to tell America's story.

But if we look at their accusations in detail I often find we have a story to tell which often reveals the America bashing statement to be a myth.

We are too often letting our enemies control the debate. They make accusations which are sometimes lies, myths or half truths and like the jihadists expect of us in combat, our opponents expect Americans to just lie down and begin defending ourselves against statements that aren't true to begin with!

Instead we need to challenge the truth of their statements. And if we don't understand the issue we're interested in talking about, that lack of understanding should trigger our starting to Google the subject before posting.

[marden climbs down from soapbox]

[subego]

Originally Posted by marden 

I am starting to find that because our citizens don't or can't think well or because they are socially disinclined to defend America or our way of life, or because we are just plain lazy, we allow our detractors, our opponents or our enemies to tell America's story.

If everyone's so worthless, why bother?

[marden]

Originally Posted by subego 

If everyone's so worthless, why bother?

You have just demonstrated the problem and the dynamics of it.

What you just said is EXACTLY what happens when Americans get nothing but negative media reports.

After a constant barrage of desultory attacks on evrything from Bush and America and the war and our economic system and the conduct of the war and the few prisoner abuses and the efforts to keep America safe and the uproar resulting from traitorous leaks of National Defense secrets and FNC and conservative pundits and more...

...that is what the average American begins to think.

You begin to think, with ALL the negative press and hoopla over the Pres. and the war, it MUST be bad. And if it's bad, why should we bother?

And THAT is what our enemies are counting on.

And THAT is why I harp on it. To prompt people to at least LOOK at the dynamic.

And now that you see it clearly you might think everyone else here will get it.

Unfortunately, they won't.

Six months from now you will still see people who do understand it.

So, the campaign continues.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by marden 

Well that would be a very interesting study. Which was responsible for more ACTUAL deaths, the US arms industry or the lo/lower tech companies in the next 14 countries, as you put it.

I don't think you understand the statistic. The US EXPORTS more arms than the next 14 EXPORTERS of arms put together. That includes Russia. The US is the biggest arms dealer in the world. When we talk about responsibility for actual deaths, I'd say combining US action in Iraq, Israeli action in Lebanon and US arms given to warlords in Somalia, US weapons would have to be right up near the top in terms of number of deaths caused in the last year.

Not saying some it wasn't necessary but when a country is exporting THAT many arms, it's hard to argue that they aren't being used.

[subego]

Originally Posted by marden 

You have just demonstrated the problem and the dynamics of it.

What you just said is EXACTLY what happens when Americans get nothing but negative media reports.

You have this reversed.

I wasn't the one who was saying Americans "don't or can't think well" are "socially disinclined to defend America or our way of life" or that they are "just plain lazy".

This isn't the media being negative.

[marden]

Originally Posted by subego 

You have this reversed.

I wasn't the one who was saying Americans "don't or can't think well" are "socially disinclined to defend America or our way of life" or that they are "just plain lazy".

This isn't the media being negative.

Here's the scorecard so our dear readers can follow along:

marden imitates the negative media.

subego imitates the average American.

After being bombarded with so much negative messages from marden, you (subego) just got tired of it all and mentally washed your hands of the whole thing and in frustration asked, "why bother?"

This is an accurate approximation of what happens in America. We are so often bombarded by negative reports of the war and the administration (and America in a very subtle way) that eventually the people just give up and ask, "why bother?' Then they take to the other side to make the bad news stop. By working against their own best interests.

News may not be good for us. Maybe it should be rationed out and well managed so that the people who are easily overwhelmed will be able to stay engaged with what's best for them.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Troll 

I don't think you understand the statistic. The US EXPORTS more arms than the next 14 EXPORTERS of arms put together. That includes Russia. The US is the biggest arms dealer in the world. When we talk about responsibility for actual deaths, I'd say combining US action in Iraq, Israeli action in Lebanon and US arms given to warlords in Somalia, US weapons would have to be right up near the top in terms of number of deaths caused in the last year.

Not saying some it wasn't necessary but when a country is exporting THAT many arms, it's hard to argue that they aren't being used.

It would be an interesting study, to be sure.

[subego]

Originally Posted by marden 

After being bombarded with so much negative messages from marden, you (subego) just got tired of it all and mentally washed your hands of the whole thing and in frustration asked, "why bother?"

Poor phrasing on my part. I should have said "If you think everyone's so worthless, why do you bother?"

I'm was wondering why you don't mentally wash your hands of it.

But since (if I understand correctly) you are not really saying Americans "don't or can't think well" are "socially disinclined to defend America or our way of life" or that they are "just plain lazy", then it's irrelevant.

[subego]

I just saw it. The Chernobyl one was the most interesting to me as I have an unhealthy fascination with nuclear apocalypse.

For those who didn't see it, one of the "twists" was that the guide insisted the crew drink vodka constantly to help flush out the radiation (liquor is a diuretic).

By the end of the segment, completely tanked, they head off to hunt mutant boar.

Or as the host said: these aren't mutant boar... only "changed" boar.

[marden]

Originally Posted by subego 

I just saw it. The Chernobyl one was the most interesting to me as I have an unhealthy fascination with nuclear apocalypse.

For those who didn't see it, one of the "twists" was that the guide insisted the crew drink vodka constantly to help flush out the radiation (liquor is a diuretic).

By the end of the segment, completely tanked, they head off to hunt mutant boar.

Or as the host said: these aren't mutant boar... only "changed" boar.

The producers have a fascinating obsession with bizarre forms of danger and that translates into a film that offers a unique flavor to a safe American's media-infotainment diet.

Their stuff is like drinking tequilla. It has it's place but those who consume it regularly are slightly twisted to begin with and become even more so as a result. But I admit it is addictive.

[subego]

Originally Posted by marden 

The producers have a fascinating obsession with bizarre forms of danger and that translates into a film that offers a unique flavor to a safe American's media-infotainment diet.

Their stuff is like drinking tequilla. It has it's place but those who consume it regularly are slightly twisted to begin with and become even more so as a result. But I admit it is addictive.

I was reading up on the "Vice" people, and I saw the claim that these people have a conservative bent. This seemed odd at first, but I think I can see where it's coming from. I'd say it's more like a Hunter Thompson Libertarian angle. At least, that's what they're aiming for.

They do like to shoot things, don't they?

If anything bothers me, it seems they have a "we are so much more ****ing cool than you are" attitude.