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marden · Dec 3, 2006, 02:46 PM

Anyone want to argue against the word, "CHRISTMAS?"

If there was no Christ there would be nothing to celebrate.

If there was a Savior but His name were different the name of the holiday would be something else other than Christmas.

If we weren't celebrating Christ's birth, there'd be no holiday season at this time of year.

To object to His name being used to signify the celebration of His birth is ridiculous.

Just agree, ok?

Atomic Rooster · Dec 3, 2006, 02:54 PM

I don't mind Christmas. It doesn't have Jesus' or Yahweh's name in it.

It's a pagan holiday anyway.

But it does sound better than Wal-Mart Day.

black bear theory · Dec 3, 2006, 02:58 PM

no.

i celebrate christmas but not for the reason of christ's birthday. i celebrate it because my parents bought me gifts at christmas time since i was young and i liked that.

i like to say holidays. though holiday is just short for "holy day's", which christmas is, which hannakuh is, which the solstice is, and they all happen around the same time. and i want them to be happy times for people regardless of who they are.

is there a war on christmas again this year?

BRussell · Dec 3, 2006, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by marden

If there was a Savior but His name were different the name of the holiday would be something else other than Christmas.

Uh-oh, it's December, and you know what that means. Joy? Givft-giving? Family visits? Nope, the conservative War Over Christmas, led by O'Reilly and Fox News. If it's a conservative, it's a war.

By the way, his name actually wasn't "Christ." His middle initial wasn't "H" either.

black bear theory · Dec 3, 2006, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

By the way, his name actually wasn't "Christ." His middle initial wasn't "H" either.

good point. christ means "the annointed one" so even if jesus's name were actually pedro, julie or bob, the holiday would still be "christmas".

Wiskedjak · Dec 3, 2006, 03:24 PM

I have no problems with the word "Christmas". In today's world, the word is more closely associated with Santa, Rudolph, and the Mall than it is with Christian mythology.

Atheist · Dec 3, 2006, 03:53 PM

Who cares what they call it... as long as I get my Xbox 360!!!

Dakar² · Dec 3, 2006, 05:33 PM

You know I didn't have a problem with the word Christmas until I started looking at his logic...

subego · Dec 3, 2006, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

His middle initial wasn't "H" either.

Are you sure? I think the "H" stands for "Haploid".

ShortcutToMoncton · Dec 3, 2006, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by subego

Are you sure? I think the "H" stands for "Haploid".

*dissolves into a fit of schoolgirl-like giggles*

greg

Jawbone54 · Dec 3, 2006, 10:31 PM

If there isn't a war against Christmas, then why do we see the word removed from advertising in countless chains at the request of ACLU types? If they didn't make such a big deal out of it, conservatives wouldn't make such a big deal out of it. It's not like calling it Christmas is a confession that you've made Jesus the lord of your life.

I'm just sick of people acting like we're forcing Christianity down their throats by calling the holiday season the "Christmas season."

marden · Dec 3, 2006, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

If there isn't a war against Christmas, then why do we see the word removed from advertising in countless chains at the request of ACLU types? If they didn't make such a big deal out of it, conservatives wouldn't make such a big deal out of it. It's not like calling it Christmas is a confession that you've made Jesus the lord of your life.

I'm just sick of people acting like we're forcing Christianity down their throats by calling the holiday season the "Christmas season."

Amen!

Wiskedjak · Dec 3, 2006, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

I'm just sick of people acting like we're forcing Christianity down their throats by calling the holiday season the "Christmas season."

Even though there are some who seem to want to do just that ...

Originally Posted by marden

Anyone want to argue against the word, "CHRISTMAS?"

If there was no Christ there would be nothing to celebrate.

If there was a Savior but His name were different the name of the holiday would be something else other than Christmas.

If we weren't celebrating Christ's birth, there'd be no holiday season at this time of year.

To object to His name being used to signify the celebration of His birth is ridiculous.

Just agree, ok?

BRussell · Dec 3, 2006, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

If there isn't a war against Christmas, then why do we see the word removed from advertising in countless chains at the request of ACLU types?

That has never happened. Stores themselves voluntarily often say "Happy Holidays" because 1) many of their customers celebrate other holidays aside from Christmas and 2) the Holiday season also includes New Year's. This is 100% a construction of demagogues like O'Reilly who want to rile people up.

The modern "Christmas season" is largely a consumeristic phenomenon. It was never celebrated like today until it was marketed as all about buying lots of stuff. Now that some companies have decided they can make more money without the term Christmas, well, live by it, die by it. If you really believe in it, you should hope all the noxious marketing people stay out of it.

Jawbone54 · Dec 3, 2006, 11:35 PM

The ACLU and their comrades have consistently battled public displays of Christmas. A town puts up a nativity scene, and the ACLU filed suit. A Christmas tree is put up in the law school at Indiana University, and a professor demands it be removed (it was).

Professor Florence Wagman Roisman's stated aim was in part to make sure the university remained an inclusive area in which no-one felt offended or left out.

The tree is now gone, replaced by a "winter scene" whose main feature is snow and a sleigh - some of the few unoffending articles that remain. "It's very pretty," an eyewitness told BBC News Online. "I don't think anyone can get upset by this."

It's this type of thing that pushes the Best Buys and Wal-Marts of the world to remove Christmas from its advertising; they want to be "all-inclusive" when the vast majority of the country just doesn't give a crap whether or not someone uses the word "Christmas."

Chuckit · Dec 3, 2006, 11:48 PM

"Easter" supposedly comes from the name of a fertility goddess. If Christians are OK committing such blasphemy, far be it from me to complain about Jesus' name being attached to a holiday dedicated to his ideals.

Jawbone54 · Dec 3, 2006, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

"Easter" supposedly comes from the name of a fertility goddess. If Christians are OK committing such blasphemy, far be it from me to complain about Jesus' name being attached to a holiday dedicated to his ideals.

What do I do when this holiday comes around? I celebrate Christ's resurrection. That's what Easter means to me. The name means nothing to me, which is exactly my point...

If I don't have a problem with a holiday being referred to by its accepted name, then why will a group of people have such a huge problem with the word "Christmas?" If people have a problem with it, then they can explain to their children that they don't celebrate Christmas, but they celebrate <fill in the blank>. No problems.

Jawbone54 · Dec 3, 2006, 11:59 PM

Another point...

February is Black History Month. White History Month doesn't even exist. But I don't storm the streets and knock down the ACLU's door to tear down their holiday that has absolutely nothing to do with me. I accept that Black History Month means a lot to African-Americans, and I let it be. It doesn't offend me that my nephews sit through a month of celebrating Black History at their elementary school.

What DOES offend me is that anything that conservative white Christians would traditionally celebrate is relegated to being something that can only exist on our private property.

Now about that White History Month: can you imagine what it would be like if someone tried to get that started?

Chuckit · Dec 4, 2006, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

What do I do when this holiday comes around? I celebrate Christ's resurrection. That's what Easter means to me. The name means nothing to me, which is exactly my point...

That was my point too.

Jawbone54 · Dec 4, 2006, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

That was my point too.

It takes some time for us to grasp the concept of our points being similar. New territory and such.

Doofy · Dec 4, 2006, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

I'm just sick of people acting like we're forcing Christianity down their throats by calling the holiday season the "Christmas season."

Oh yeah.

You can sit there all night not saying a word about religion. And then, from out of the blue, the conversation goes something like this:

Them: "Religion sucks"
Me: "No it doesn't"
Them: "Oh, so you're religious are you?"
Me: "Yep"
Them: "STOP FORCING CHRISTIANITY DOWN MY THROAT!"

Dakar² · Dec 4, 2006, 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

II'm just sick of people acting like we're forcing Christianity down their throats by calling the holiday season the "Christmas season."

Oh the irony...

Atheist · Dec 4, 2006, 04:23 AM

I think a couple of issues are getting jumbled up here. You should probably open up another thread with regards to the ACLU and nativity scenes on government property.

Back to the "Attack on Christmas". I think it's an invention of a few who like to stir things up. The main idea behind the reference to "Holiday Season" is so retailers can appeal to a broader audience. The only religious affiliation the large corporations have is to the Almighty Dollar. So if saying "Happy Holidays" at the entrance to Wal-Mart brings in more dollars...then that's what they are going to do. It's not an attack on Christianity. It's an attempt at being inclusive.

Personally, I say "Happy Holidays" except on the 25th of December.. then I say "Merry Christmas". Seems to work just fine...

Wiskedjak · Dec 4, 2006, 11:50 AM

Just a thought, but isn't "Christmas" fundamentally anti-Semetic?

lpkmckenna · Dec 4, 2006, 12:38 PM

I haven't read the thread yet, but to respond to the title: no. I'm an atheist, but I find terms like "happy holidays" to be insipid and wishy-washy.

I don't mind the term "Christmas" for the same reason I don't mind the term "Thursday." I don't worship Thor, but I haven't forgotten that we developed out of a culture that did.

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas. Peace on Earth and Goodwill towards Men.

lpkmckenna · Dec 4, 2006, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by marden

If we weren't celebrating Christ's birth, there'd be no holiday season at this time of year.

Gee, that's funny, because a Roman holiday existed at exactly this time of year long before Christianity.

Uncle Skeleton · Dec 4, 2006, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Just a thought, but isn't "Christmas" fundamentally anti-Semetic?

I don't get it.

dcmacdaddy · Dec 4, 2006, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Atheist

I think a couple of issues are getting jumbled up here. You should probably open up another thread with regards to the ACLU and nativity scenes on government property.

Back to the "Attack on Christmas". I think it's an invention of a few who like to stir things up. The main idea behind the reference to "Holiday Season" is so retailers can appeal to a broader audience. The only religious affiliation the large corporations have is to the Almighty Dollar. So if saying "Happy Holidays" at the entrance to Wal-Mart brings in more dollars...then that's what they are going to do. It's not an attack on Christianity. It's an attempt at being inclusive.

That about sums it up. Retailers only care about money and they want to get as much money as possible. If non-Christians are bothered by going into a store that is all decked out in overtly Christian trappings and sayings then the store has a choice, tone done the overt religiosity (and gain more customers) or leave the overt religiosity as is and lose customers.

If someone is upset about stores not being overtly Christian with their celebrations of Christmas then they have one very simple way to let their voices be heard, not shop at those stores with non-Christian holiday paraphernalia and shop only at those stores that "keep the Christ in Christmas". They too have a voice, they just need to use it and use the power of the purse to get what they want.

Originally Posted by Atheist

Personally, I say "Happy Holidays" except on the 25th of December.. then I say "Merry Christmas". Seems to work just fine...

Same here.

marden · 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Gee, that's funny, because a Roman holiday existed at exactly this time of year long before Christianity.

[IMG]http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/8968/festivus795671ln1.jpg
Festivus doesn't count.

A Little Background on Festivus

Those of you who may not be fully conversant with the history of “Seinfeld” may be similarly deficient in your knowledge of Festivus. So some introductory words are in order.

Christians celebrate Christmas, Jewish have Hanukah, African-Americans are growing their own tradition with Kwanzaa. But what the wise Frank Costanza learned many years ago was the need for another ceremony, which he named “Festivus” – “Festivus, for the rest of us.”

Festivus grew out of a Christmas shopping trip many years ago. It was December 23rd, and Frank went to buy a doll for his son George. But there was only one doll left, and as Frank grabbed for it, so did another man. A struggle followed, in which Frank pummeled his foe into submission, but the doll was destroyed.

Thus was born Festivus. While the precise date of Festivus remains December 23rd, the Festivus season begins on November 15th, and runs through the end of the year. This extended celebration, which begins here tonight, is know formally as “Festivus Maximus.”

Recall that on that first Festivus the doll was destroyed, and George thus received no gifts that year. For this reason, Festivus features no gifts, no gift exchange, no thoughtful and sappy remembrances of friendship and love. Festivus has its own traditions.

You have already enjoyed the first part of Festivus, the customary meal. The menu is always the same: in the words of our patron, Frank Costanza, “Eat anything you want.”

Which brings us to the second Festivus tradition: the Festivus pole.

Grieve This ~ A Festivus for the Rest of Us

dcmacdaddy · Dec 4, 2006, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Festivus doesn't count.

A Little Background on Festivus

Those of you who may not be fully conversant with the history of “Seinfeld” may be similarly deficient in your knowledge of Festivus. So some introductory words are in order.

Christians celebrate Christmas, Jewish have Hanukah, African-Americans are growing their own tradition with Kwanzaa. But what the wise Frank Costanza learned many years ago was the need for another ceremony, which he named “Festivus” – “Festivus, for the rest of us.”

Festivus grew out of a Christmas shopping trip many years ago. It was December 23rd, and Frank went to buy a doll for his son George. But there was only one doll left, and as Frank grabbed for it, so did another man. A struggle followed, in which Frank pummeled his foe into submission, but the doll was destroyed.

Thus was born Festivus. While the precise date of Festivus remains December 23rd, the Festivus season begins on November 15th, and runs through the end of the year. This extended celebration, which begins here tonight, is know formally as “Festivus Maximus.”

Recall that on that first Festivus the doll was destroyed, and George thus received no gifts that year. For this reason, Festivus features no gifts, no gift exchange, no thoughtful and sappy remembrances of friendship and love. Festivus has its own traditions.

You have already enjoyed the first part of Festivus, the customary meal. The menu is always the same: in the words of our patron, Frank Costanza, “Eat anything you want.”

Which brings us to the second Festivus tradition: the Festivus pole.

Grieve This ~ A Festivus for the Rest of Us

Umm Abermojarden . . . before you make yourself look any more dumb lpmckenna was referring to Saturnalia.

marden · Dec 4, 2006, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Umm Abermojarden . . . before you make yourself look any more dumb lpmckenna was referring to Saturnalia.

I knew that. You don't think I knew that?

dcmacdaddy · Dec 4, 2006, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by marden

I knew that. You don't think I knew that?

Umm no. I think you are dumb. I said that in my post when I said "before you make yourself look any more dumb". That implies I think you are dumb and your statement was making you look more dumb (i.e.: dumber).

lpkmckenna · Dec 4, 2006, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by marden

I knew that. You don't think I knew that?

Uncle Skeleton · Dec 4, 2006, 01:56 PM

marden 101: if you have lost an argument, pick another topic at random, find a website about that topic, quote the text of that website, add a link or two and inline a large image. Go into lengthy detail explaining the new topic, as if you were teaching it. Make sure not to mention the argument you lost after this.

marden 102: if you don't know the meaning of what has been said, refer to 101.

Chuckit · Dec 4, 2006, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

I haven't read the thread yet, but to respond to the title: no. I'm an atheist, but I find terms like "happy holidays" to be insipid and wishy-washy.

I don't mind the term "Christmas" for the same reason I don't mind the term "Thursday." I don't worship Thor, but I haven't forgotten that we developed out of a culture that did.

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas. Peace on Earth and Goodwill towards Men.

My thoughts exactly. All this "Here's a holiday tree! Happy holidays!" nonsense is annoying. Like, there's only one holiday that uses that tree, there's only one major holiday around that time at all (Chanukah = not a big deal except as an alias for "Christmas"), and from a cultural standpoint, I celebrate Christmas.

BRussell · Dec 4, 2006, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

there's only one holiday that uses that tree, there's only one major holiday around that time at all (Chanukah = not a big deal except as an alias for "Christmas"),

Did you forget about New Year's eve and day? And is Hanukah really less of a big deal than Christmas originally was - before the malls got hold of it? I'm honestly not sure. But I know the modern celebration of Christmas is a consumeristic rather than a religious phenomenon. I also agree with lpkmckenna that Walmart putting "Happy Holidays" in their window is insipid, but is it really less insipid than Walmart putting "Merry Christmas" in their window? At the least, they're just different types of insipidity.

legacyb4 · Dec 4, 2006, 02:32 PM

Didn't some college/high school chick organize some "white students club" recently at her school?

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Another point...

February is Black History Month. White History Month doesn't even exist. But I don't storm the streets and knock down the ACLU's door to tear down their holiday that has absolutely nothing to do with me. I accept that Black History Month means a lot to African-Americans, and I let it be. It doesn't offend me that my nephews sit through a month of celebrating Black History at their elementary school.

What DOES offend me is that anything that conservative white Christians would traditionally celebrate is relegated to being something that can only exist on our private property.

Now about that White History Month: can you imagine what it would be like if someone tried to get that started?

probablecause · Dec 4, 2006, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

The ACLU and their comrades have consistently battled public displays of Christmas. A town puts up a nativity scene, and the ACLU filed suit. A Christmas tree is put up in the law school at Indiana University, and a professor demands it be removed (it was).

It's this type of thing that pushes the Best Buys and Wal-Marts of the world to remove Christmas from its advertising; they want to be "all-inclusive" when the vast majority of the country just doesn't give a crap whether or not someone uses the word "Christmas."

The prevaling culture of America is too celebrate Christmas-whether its a secular or religious celebration doesn't matter. Just like the prevailing culture of Israel is to celebrate Jewish holidays and the prevailing culture of Saudi Arabia is to celebrate Muslim holidays. Of course, minorities in these places should have the right not to celebrate or participate in the prevailing culture without penalty-- but that's it. They shouldn't get to control what the majority does because they are "offended". Certainly not some egotistical little professor who couldn't get attention otherwise.

Jawbone54 · Dec 4, 2006, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by probablecause

The prevaling culture of America is too celebrate Christmas-whether its a secular or religious celebration doesn't matter. Just like the prevailing culture of Israel is to celebrate Jewish holidays and the prevailing culture of Saudi Arabia is to celebrate Muslim holidays. Of course, minorities in these places should have the right not to celebrate or participate in the prevailing culture without penalty-- but that's it. They shouldn't get to control what the majority does because they are "offended". Certainly not some egotistical little professor who couldn't get attention otherwise.

Good post.

Dakar² · Dec 4, 2006, 04:09 PM

After a certain point, I think both side are being selfish bastards -- those that want stores to explicitly acknowledge Christmas, and those that want to wipe out any references to any specific holiday whatsoever.

Rumor · Dec 4, 2006, 04:13 PM

I couldn't care less what it's called, just as long as eggnog and brandy is involved.

BRussell · Dec 4, 2006, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

After a certain point, I think both side are being selfish bastards -- those that want stores to explicitly acknowledge Christmas, and those that want to wipe out any references to any specific holiday whatsoever.

But there's really only one side here. I don't know of anyone who has demanded that a store say "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas." These are stores that voluntarily do this because they believe it's best for them. On the other hand, every Christmas conservatives drum up another war about this.

Rumor · Dec 4, 2006, 05:22 PM

You kids keep acting up and I'll take Christmas away.

olePigeon · Dec 4, 2006, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Anyone want to argue against the word, "CHRISTMAS?"

If there was no Christ there would be nothing to celebrate.

*snip*

Just agree, ok?

I have nothing against Christmas. However, if there was no Jesus, we'd still be celebrating the Winter Solstice and exchanging gifts, as the origins of those practices have absolutely nothing to do with Christmas.

marden · Dec 4, 2006, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I have nothing against Christmas. However, if there was no Jesus, we'd still be celebrating the Winter Solstice and exchanging gifts, as the origins of those practices have absolutely nothing to do with Christmas.

That's a few days before Christmas, right?

Wiskedjak · Dec 5, 2006, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by marden

That's a few days before Christmas, right?

Your point being that the solstice doesn't land on the 25?

Also on December 25:
natalis solis invicti
the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of Righteousness"

marden · Dec 5, 2006, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Your point being that the solstice doesn't land on the 25?

Also on December 25:
natalis solis invicti
the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of Righteousness"

Ok, so celebrate that and no one will ask you to change the name, ok?

- - e r i k - - · Dec 5, 2006, 01:43 AM

Why do you keep acting like there is some "war" against the word Christmas? Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, get over it already.

A very merry Christmas to every one. I'm loving the holiday spirit, but some people are just looking for excuses to get riled up.

marden · Dec 5, 2006, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Why do you keep acting like there is some "war" against the word Christmas? Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, get over it already.

A very merry Christmas to every one. I'm loving the holiday spirit, but some people are just looking for excuses to get riled up.

I just wanted to make sure.

Wiskedjak · Dec 5, 2006, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by marden

Ok, so celebrate that and no one will ask you to change the name, ok?

I'm not asking to change the name of Christmas. I'm just finding it interesting how you're getting all riled up about those who wish to market to more than just Christians during the gift-getting season.

I also find it interesting that you seem to think "Christmas" has the sole claim over December 25. At least 2 other events were celebrated historically on December 25 ... Christians used to claim January 6 until they shifted it to December 25 somewhere around 300 AD. It would appear that they didn't know the exact date of Christ's birth, even within 300 years of it.