[TETENAL]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6163667.stm

So now a flat in Hamburg where a Russian lived that later met with the former Russian agent that was murdered by Polonium poisoning in London, and a house in Schleswig-Holstein where that guy's former mother in law lives have been found to be radioactively contaminated.

This really pisses me off. Clearly Russia's intelligence services are out of control, and this endangers the lives uninvolved people. Putin needs to fix this problem! And being the former chief of the FSB he should know what goes wrong there. It's unacceptable that Russian agents (current of former, now criminals) distribute radioactive and highly carcinogenic substances all around Europe.

[design219]

What do you recommend?

[marden]

I think Russia knows exactly what they are doing here and if I were a Russia loving citizen of that nation I would say that Putin couldn't be blamed for dealing with this guy in this manner IF Putin was responsible.

If the Russian government WASN'T responsible then, no matter. I still find it difficult to get too upset over this matter.

[Sky Captain]

My fear is these agents re SELLING this stuff.
To God knows who.

[tie]

Exactly. I'm surprised the color-coded alert level hasn't risen to pink because of this. (Purple, whatever.)

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

My fear is these agents re SELLING this stuff.
To God knows who.

The Polonium that was found in Litvinenko (100 times the lethal dose) was worth roughly 30 million Euro. I doubt this is an affordable poison.

[Sky Captain]

Not as a poison but as weapons materials.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Putin needs to fix this problem! And being the former chief of the FSB he should know what goes wrong there.

Nothing goes wrong there, it's business as usual.

-t

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The Polonium that was found in Litvinenko (100 times the lethal dose) was worth roughly 30 million Euro. I doubt this is an affordable poison.

And I doubt they purchased the Plutonium on the legal market.

[black bear theory]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Not as a poison but as weapons materials.

how would they use it as a weapon if not as a poison?

[marden]

Originally Posted by black bear theory 

how would they use it as a weapon if not as a poison?

Poison = Single dose to one person.

Weapon (of mass destruction) = Poison used to kill or sicken many.

[black bear theory]

Originally Posted by marden 

Poison = Single dose to one person.

Weapon (of mass destruction) = Poison used to kill or sicken many.

the reason that Po-210 is an effective poison is because it undergoes alpha decay, not the other types commonly associated with lethal radiation. alpha decay can only travel a couple of feet, in thin air, and can barely penetrate the skin, which is why inhalation or ingestion is the only way for it to be effective - inside the body it can affect the vital organs. outside it can't.

if it were used in a dirty bomb, it might be lethal to those in the immediate area, but i would guess that the bomb blast would do far more damage than the radiation. spreading out Po effectively dilutes it's effectiveness and explosions do that. Po-210 has a half-life of 138 days. so it wouldn't be effective for denying an area for very long.

also, it's pricey.

Po-210 is effective in small areas in concentrated doses. therefore a good tool for assasination, not mass destruction.

pouring it into a water supply would allow it to dilute rapidly, unlike in someone's cocktail.

[OreoCookie]

Despite all the FUD, Po210 is harmless unless it's digested or inhaled. alpha radiation travels only about 10 cm in the air and is block by a piece of paper. It cannot penetrate the skin. It's not a very good weapon of mass destruction. Plus, as I said before, it's ridiculously expensive -- and there are cheaper ways to obtain radioactive/toxic materials.

[Doofy]

Po-210 can be used as a trigger in nukes though, yes?

There's another unofficial story knocking around: Litvinenko (with proven Chechnyan rebel ties) was actually smuggling the stuff into the UK (think London with a nuke going off) and that his poisoning was simply an associated risk. All this bumpf about it being someone else who poisoned him is merely a cover up by the UK government because it'd would do to be taking baby formula off innocent mothers while allowing Po-210 to slip past the security net.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Po-210 can be used as a trigger in nukes though, yes?

AFAIK yes, it can be used in crude nuclear bombs as a trigger. It's also used as a heat source on satellites (it emits about 140 W/g if I remember correctly). I'm no expert on either of them, but I still think there are cheaper ways to do it. According to the news, there is only one company in Russia which exports Po210.

I'm still amazed that somebody has spent such a big amount on killing somebody.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

There's another unofficial story knocking around: Litvinenko (with proven Chechnyan rebel ties) was actually smuggling the stuff into the UK (think London with a nuke going off) and that his poisoning was simply an associated risk. All this bumpf about it being someone else who poisoned him is merely a cover up by the UK government because it'd would do to be taking baby formula off innocent mothers while allowing Po-210 to slip past the security net.

Hmmm, sounds like hell of a conspiracy theory to me. If you ingest Po210, it's highly toxic. Why would he want to smuggle Po210 into the UK (for a nuclear bomb that is to be detonated by Chechnyan rebels somewhere in the UK, say London)? What do the rumor mills say?

Personally, I don't believe, Putin has had a personal hand in this. Not because he's a nice guy, but because he'd get into a lot of trouble with the west. I think it was a small group within the FSB/former KGB milieu.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm still amazed that somebody has spent such a big amount on killing somebody.

Hence smuggling theory.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Despite all the FUD, Po210 is harmless

And yet seven of the hotel employees where that Russian former agents meeting took place as well as the murdered guy's wife have measurable Polonium levels in their bodies. They have a long term risk of developing cancer. Two of the Russians who met in the hotel bar and the Italian informant are hospitalized for Polonium intoxication. Their cancer risk is pretty high.

unless it's digested or inhaled

As if people don't eat or breath all the time.

It might not be a "weapon of mass destruction", but this operation did not murder someone in Europe (already bad enough if conducted by a Russian national agency) it also affected the health of uninvolved bystanders. That's totally unacceptable.

I'm still amazed that somebody has spent such a big amount on killing somebody.
[…]
I think it was a small group within the FSB/former KGB milieu.

So then there you have your answer to your amazement. If it was the FSB who had access to Polonium they didn't pay for it. Putin needs to fix this so that neither his national agencies do such **** nor that criminal elements have access to radioactive material.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

And yet seven of the hotel employees where that Russian former agents meeting took place as well as the murdered guy's wife have measurable Polonium levels in their bodies. They have a long term risk of developing cancer. Two of the Russians who met in the hotel bar and the Italian informant are hospitalized for Polonium intoxication. Their cancer risk is pretty high. As if people don't eat or breath all the time.

You shouldn't have broken up my sentence in the middle, the `unless' part is essential. The FUD I was referring to was that the news coverage made it seem like just being in the vicinity of these someone who is contaminated with Po210 is sufficient for endangering yourself -- it is not.

Initially, this seemed to have been an assassination as well where the exposure to Po210 is punctual -- and yet, the dangers of Po210 were hyped.

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

It might not be a "weapon of mass destruction", but this operation did not murder someone in Europe (already bad enough if conducted by a Russian national agency) it also affected the health of uninvolved bystanders. That's totally unacceptable.

Sure, handling dangerous material improperly is always dangerous, you should know what you are doing.

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

So then there you have your answer to your amazement. If it was the FSB who had access to Polonium they didn't pay for it. Putin needs to fix this so that neither his national agencies do such **** nor that criminal elements have access to radioactive material.

Amazement? Po210 is substance with commercial applications. Even if it `didn't cost the FSB anything', the money is still lost in terms of revenues. And my amazement still pertains as there are cheaper ways to kill somebody effectively. Litvinenko's body contained 100 times the lethal dose of Po210. So the choice of method is still very interesting to me.

I don't think there is any disagreement here that Putin needs to get this situation under control again.

[analogika]

Indeed.

Why Polonium, out of the hundreds of methods to kill someone?

And if you're smuggling radioactive material in an airplane, HOW THE HELL do you manage to contaminate THREE aircraft? Did they unpack it in-flight and fill it into a different container? Or what?

The whole thing seems like it was *meant* to be spectacular, guaranteeing front-page coverage, and easily traceable to Moscow.

Why?

An attempt to intimidate others? We know Litvinenko was researching the Politkovskaya murder. What is going on here? And why in a manner suitable to endanger a number of completely unrelated innocent bystanders?

Side note: We just walked by Kowtun's apartment a number of times this weekend. Eerie once somebody told us why all the police had blocked the road.

[OreoCookie]

Conspiracy theorists, rejoice: speculations arise that the Polonium trail was deliberate to mislead investigators …

[Troll]

Originally Posted by analogika 

The whole thing seems like it was *meant* to be spectacular, guaranteeing front-page coverage, and easily traceable to Moscow.

Why?

Alexander Litvinenko, speaking in April 15, 2004: "I consider the war continuing in Chechnya as a crime. In 1997, a peace agreement was concluded between Russia and Chechnya. Thus, Russia recognized the independence of Chechnya de jure and de facto. Being a FSB officer, I was at war in Chechnya during the first war. But I am convinced: peace treaties should be observed. Aslan Maskhadov is the legally elected president of Chechnya, and the president Putin who began the second Chechen war is a criminal."

Litvinenko has been very close to the Chechen resistance for a long time. He has been photographed alongside Maskhadov many times. The fact that he used to be KGB and then started supporting the enemy gave the Chechen resistance a lot of cred. This *is* meant to be spectacular. It's supposed to be a message to all of those who would consider assisting Chechen "terrorists" that no expense will be spared in eliminating them in the most gruesome way possible. At least that's what the documentary I saw earlier this week maintained.

[TETENAL]

Scotland Yard apparently believes to have found the perpetrator. Andrei Lugovoi left a polonium trail from Moscow to London.

Litvinenko Mystery: 'Walking Dirty Bomb' Tells of London Meetings - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Meanwhile that guy's buddy Dmitry Kovtun is "sorry" that he has caused trouble to Hamburg.

Litvinenko Poisoning Case: Kovtun Apologizes for Bringing Polonium to Germany - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Po-210 can be used as a trigger in nukes though, yes?

There's another unofficial story knocking around: Litvinenko (with proven Chechnyan rebel ties) was actually smuggling the stuff into the UK (think London with a nuke going off) and that his poisoning was simply an associated risk. All this bumpf about it being someone else who poisoned him is merely a cover up by the UK government because it'd would do to be taking baby formula off innocent mothers while allowing Po-210 to slip past the security net.

I'm not sure about the bomb plot, but the fact that radioactive material was smuggled onto commercial aircraft tells me that all the bullsh*t I have to put up with at airport security checkpoints means absolutely nothing. People with resources and expertise can get what they need through security with apparent ease.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

I'm not sure about the bomb plot, but the fact that radioactive material was smuggled onto commercial aircraft tells me that all the bullsh*t I have to put up with at airport security checkpoints means absolutely nothing. People with resources and expertise can get what they need through security with apparent ease.

There is no real way to detect Po210 if it is `properly' transported (a closed plastic bottle, for instance, would be sufficient to contain the radiation). If it really were a bomb plot, I don't think `they' (whoever they are) would have allowed so many people to ingest Po210.

[PER3]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Po-210 can be used as a trigger in nukes though, yes?

There's another unofficial story knocking around: Litvinenko (with proven Chechnyan rebel ties) was actually smuggling the stuff into the UK (think London with a nuke going off) and that his poisoning was simply an associated risk. All this bumpf about it being someone else who poisoned him is merely a cover up by the UK government because it'd would do to be taking baby formula off innocent mothers while allowing Po-210 to slip past the security net.

Oh, dear, oh, dear...

Someone who has the means to construct the Uranium or Plutonium or Dirty Nuclear Core of a Bomb has to go round Europe smearing the Polonium Trigger everywhere he walks instead of just sealing it and shoving it up his arse???

I think not.