[Doofy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6171083.stm

Healthy new-born babies may have been killed in Ukraine to feed a flourishing international trade in stem cells, evidence obtained by the BBC suggests.

Disturbing video footage of post-mortem examinations on dismembered tiny bodies raises serious questions about what happened to them.

Ukraine has become the self-styled stem cell capital of the world.

There is a trade in stem cells from aborted foetuses, amid unproven claims they can help fight many diseases.

But now there are claims that stem cells are also being harvested from live babies.

The BBC has spoken to mothers from the city of Kharkiv who say they gave birth to healthy babies, only to have them taken by maternity staff.

In 2003 the authorities agreed to exhume around 30 bodies of foetuses and full-term babies from a cemetery used by maternity hospital number six.

One campaigner was allowed into the autopsy to gather video evidence. She has given that footage to the BBC and Council of Europe.

In its report, the Council describes a general culture of trafficking of children snatched at birth, and a wall of silence from hospital staff upwards over their fate.

The pictures show organs, including brains, have been stripped - and some bodies dismembered.

A senior British forensic pathologist says he is very concerned to see bodies in pieces - as that is not standard post-mortem practice.

It could possibly be a result of harvesting stem cells from bone marrow.

Hospital number six denies the allegations.

Lovely. <- Rule 8 violation avoidance comment.

[Dakar²]

That's grotesque.

(And good luck Doofy, that's not in the 'spirit' of the Rule)

[Sayf-Allah]

Fekkers.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

(And good luck Doofy, that's not in the 'spirit' of the Rule)

Doofy's first one. I think we can let it slide.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

(And good luck Doofy, that's not in the 'spirit' of the Rule)

Well, I could have repeated the word "fekkers" (thanks Logic) forty times. What the hell can one say, other than that, about what the Ukraine appear to be doing?

[Dakar²]

Somehow I knew you'd comment

(I don't think anyone would care -- but it's never good to flaunt it)

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

(I don't think anyone would care -- but it's never good to flaunt it)

If you got it, flaunt it!

So anyways... ...in order to stop the Ukrainian monsters, do we allow stem cells to be produced locally or do we make the import of them a crime punishable with 50 in the clink? My jury is out on this one.

[Dakar²]

I don't know about 50 in the clink, but we need to guarantee that no one will use these stem cells.

[IceBreaker]

i don't see why anyone is surprised by this. once you start down the path it was inevitable that new-born babies have and will be killed to harvest stem cells.

[Dakar²]

Inevitable if you're looking to make a buck, maybe.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

If you got it, flaunt it!

So anyways... ...in order to stop the Ukrainian monsters, do we allow stem cells to be produced locally or do we make the import of them a crime punishable with 50 in the clink? My jury is out on this one.

Making the import of stem cells a crime only stops the import of stem cells into the US, and the US is not the only market place for stem cells. The practice will still continue, though perhaps less babies will be chopped up.

Underground markets/uncontrolled practices are not surprising developments in response to any kind of prohibition.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Making the import of stem cells a crime only stops the import of stem cells into the US, and the US is not the only market place for stem cells.

I was actually thinking "the entire civilised western world". Since I'm not actually in the US and stuff.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I was actually thinking "the entire civilised western world". Since I'm not actually in the US and stuff.

I'm not certain this would be possible. Not alll of the civilized western world are prohibiting the use of stem cells. Most see value in the research and have programs in place to control, rather than prohibit, the practice.

However, even if it were possible, it would only drive the practice further underground. You may no longer hear about it, but it'll still be happening.

[Saetre]

Is it even possible to harvest stem cells from babies?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Yeah, that's my reaction too. I thought the whole point of "Embryonic Stem Cells" was that they came from embryos, as in even fetus is too old. Stem cells from newborns would be "adult stem cells" I'd think. I call shenanigans.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by IceBreaker 

i don't see why anyone is surprised by this. once you start down the path it was inevitable that new-born babies have and will be killed to harvest stem cells.

Right. We should stop doing organ transplants too because it's inevitable that criminals and other undesirable or desperate people will be exploited for their valuable organs.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by IceBreaker 

i don't see why anyone is surprised by this. once you start down the path it was inevitable that new-born babies have and will be killed to harvest stem cells.

No, such a thing is not inevitable.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

No, such a thing is not inevitable.

Logically, no. Historically, yes. This is one of those cases where the data defies logic.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Yeah, that's my reaction too. I thought the whole point of "Embryonic Stem Cells" was that they came from embryos, as in even fetus is too old. Stem cells from newborns would be "adult stem cells" I'd think. I call shenanigans.

My guess is that the enterprises doing this are doing so fraudulently: they're claiming to sell embryonic stem cells when in fact they aren't. They're literally scamming science.

[Macrobat]

Well, they are also harvesting organs, blood, skin for grafts, and bone marrow. Stem cells are just the current "buzz" word.

Interesting that this is also the major tripping point in human cloning, too.


There is always someone unscrupulous enough to do anything for money.

[ghporter]

Newborn babies have few embryonic stem cells; theirs are as differentiated as an adult's so Uncle Skeleton's statement is right.

I still see this report as "questions" and "allegations" rather than proof. Video provides information that brings up the questions, that's all.

Ukraine has about half-again the infant mortality rate of Europe overall (see this document), and the European rate (10 per thousand) is elevated because of much of Eastern and Southern Europe have higher rates than Western Europe (the so-called "developed" countries in Europe). That means that a lot more babies die there than in say England, which has a rate of 5.1 deaths per 1000 live births, or the U.S. with a rate of 6.4 (see this document). That's almost three times the UK's infant mortality rate; it's a lot of infant deaths, and that means a lot of post mortem exams.

Now, let's think back about twenty years. Chernobyl happened then, right? And what is the prime age range for first time mothers? About 17-25, right? In other words, there are specific issues that MUST be considered when an infant dies at or near birth in the Ukraine. And that means a lot of cytological investigation would be required to find out if there were cellular and genetic problems.

It comes down to the question of why these examinations are being done, and the BBC has quite rightly raised that question. Jumping to conclusions on this is just plain WRONG.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Lovely. <- Rule 8 violation avoidance comment.

Received your infartation yet ?

-t

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck 

Received your infartation yet ?

.