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marden · Dec 19, 2006, 10:19 AM

Four teenagers jailed for torture

Katy James has been left with severe scarring

Four teenagers who burned, beat and abused a girl with learning difficulties have been jailed.

The four from Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, ignited aerosol sprays to burn Katy James, 17, during four hours of torture.

Wynette Darkes, 17, and Hayley Kirby, 18, were given six and a half years in prison. James Smale, 17 and Robert Hart, 18, were given indefinite terms.

They all pleaded guilty to causing grievous bodily harm.

They also all admitted attempting to pervert the cause of justice.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Hereford/Worcs | Four teenagers jailed for torture

RULE 8 COMPLIANCE STATEMENT

This PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that because the British police do not carry guns that the people have come to have absolutely no fear of the consequences of their actions. They just get more and more decadent and rebellious and jaded and violent.

The cops should carry guns and soon this crap might stop.

BRussell · Dec 19, 2006, 10:31 AM

Well they say that during the Clinton years blowjobs became more acceptable to young people. Maybe the actions of US presidents really do have an effect.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by BRussell

Well they say that during the Clinton years blowjobs became more acceptable to young people. Maybe the actions of US presidents really do have an effect.

Even across the seas people take their cues from role models, whether they personally look up to that role model or not. (Maybe that's a nod that the Islamists have a point. This decadent behavior is corrosive and can't be contained.) It sets the parameters of accepted behavior.

analogika · Dec 19, 2006, 10:47 AM

How on earth would cops carrying guns have affected this case in any way? Were they present?

Doofy · Dec 19, 2006, 10:48 AM

This story also illustrates the sexist (anti-male) stance of the current UK administration. How come the chicks get 6.5 years and the blokes get indefinite (life) terms?

What they should actually all get is life terms with my homie Bear (6'6" in every direction) beating the crap out of them when he gets bored (i.e. at completely random times).

Doofy · Dec 19, 2006, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

How on earth would cops carrying guns have affected this case in any way? Were they present?

I agree. I don't want UK cops carrying guns (since I don't trust them as far as I can throw them). I think what Marden is getting at is the lack of retribution (suitable punishment) in society which leads to youths thinking they can get away with stuff - which leads to a gradual decay in law and order.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

How on earth would cops carrying guns have affected this case in any way? Were they present?

I'm sorry. I tend to think of the BIG PICTURE.

Of course it wouldn't have done much in this case, probably.

The thrust of my argument is that there should be a line that EVERYONE knows they mustn't cross. Without that line the people believe they they can do everything and anything they want.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

I agree. I don't want UK cops carrying guns (since I don't trust them as far as I can throw them). I think what Marden is getting at is the lack of retribution (suitable punishment) in society which leads to youths thinking they can get away with stuff - which leads to a gradual decay in law and order.

analogika · Dec 19, 2006, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by marden

I'm sorry. I tend to think of the BIG PICTURE.

Of course it wouldn't have done much in this case, probably.

The thrust of my argument is that there should be a line that EVERYONE knows they mustn't cross. Without that line the people believe they they can do everything and anything they want.

So the BIG PICTURE is that if you cross the line, a police officer will be along presently to shoot you on sight, without trial or sentence.

That's brilliant, and I'm sure it would have helped that poor girl to no end.

BRussell · Dec 19, 2006, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by marden

Even across the seas people take their cues from role models, whether they personally look up to that role model or not. (Maybe that's a nod that the Islamists have a point. This decadent behavior is corrosive and can't be contained.) It sets the parameters of accepted behavior.

Exactly. So bowjobs become popular because of Clinton, and torture becomes popular because of Bush. I wonder if they water-boarded her too? Maybe they even warrantless-wiretapped her first.

Gossamer · Dec 19, 2006, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by BRussell

Maybe they even warrantless-wiretapped her first.

Yeah, if you click the link they show pictures of what that did to her too.

Sky Captain · Dec 19, 2006, 11:32 AM

How about these blokes.
I've been following this story.
And you wonder why the police are just shooting first now.
They're tired of getting killed by criminals.

Atheist · Dec 19, 2006, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

How on earth would cops carrying guns have affected this case in any way? Were they present?

Welcome to marden's world

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

So the BIG PICTURE is that if you cross the line, a police officer will be along presently to shoot you on sight, without trial or sentence.

That's brilliant, and I'm sure it would have helped that poor girl to no end.

Ahhh! Liberalism on display for all to behold!

The level of violence would be lower.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by BRussell

Exactly. So bowjobs become popular because of Clinton, and torture becomes popular because of Bush. I wonder if they water-boarded her too? Maybe they even warrantless-wiretapped her first.

BUSTED!

Didn't read the article.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Atheist

Welcome to marden's world

Just check your liberal attitudes at the door.

Rumor · Dec 19, 2006, 11:51 AM

The British police having guns wouldn't have adverted this at all. To believe that is pure idiocy.

Chuckit · Dec 19, 2006, 11:55 AM

I read an article in TIME while I was sitting on the pot the other day about somebody in America — like, where people have GUNS! — who got tortured by some troubled kids. Hypothesis rejected.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

The British police having guns wouldn't have adverted this at all. To believe that is pure idiocy.

Think big picture. Systemic results. Long term.

The police having guns instills in the populace over time the idea that certain crimes will result in immediate termination. The people of England know (and have grown up knowing over generations) that there is nothing they can do which could get them INSTANT KARMA.

That realization is liberating!

"Why NOT commit __________ (name of crime)? They can't kill me?!"

So they get a sense of being able to walk in the Tiger's enclosure and there being no sense of danger or respect.

Not good.

So with this attitude ALL KINDS of crimes are likely committed that wouldn't be, otherwise.

And many of you have no idea how much more violent GB is, it is in the people's consciousness on a fundamental level.

When I first noticed it I was truly alarmed!

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Think big picture. Systemic results. Long term.

The police having guns instills in the populace over time the idea that certain crimes will result in immediate termination. The people of England know (and have grown up knowing over generations) that there is nothing they can do which could get them INSTANT KARMA.

That realization is liberating!

"Why NOT commit __________ (name of crime)? They can't kill me?!"

Except that cops cannot kill a criminal anyways unless their life is in danger. Night sticks/stun guns as deterrents are just as effective as a gun would be.

Afterall the whole point of policing is to bring the criminals to justice, not kill them.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I read an article in TIME while I was sitting on the pot the other day about somebody in America — like, where people have GUNS! — who got tortured by some troubled kids. Hypothesis rejected.

Using the exception to represent the whole is proof that the school you attended produces incompetent graduates, right?

Well, OF COURSE NOT!

I was just illustrating the absurdity of your assumption by using the same principle.

I bet if you dug up some handgun stats you'd see some surprising truths.

Every year MILLIONS of law abiding citizens safely (for them), effectively and legally use handguns to protect themselves from criminals.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

Except that cops cannot kill a criminal anyways unless their life is in danger. Night sticks/stun guns as deterrents are just as effective as a gun would be.

Afterall the whole point of policing is to bring the criminals to justice, not kill them.

Uh, you are Canadian.

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Uh, you are Canadian.

Your point? I didn't realize Canadians can't discuss world affairs.

Besides that, I'm right.

analogika · Dec 19, 2006, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Ahhh! Liberalism on display for all to behold!

The level of violence would be lower.

America the Beautiful™.

Where "Freedom" means being able to make a point without any reference to any sort of reality.

Rumor · Dec 19, 2006, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by marden

The police having guns instills fear in the populace.

Typical thought process of extremists.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

Your point? I didn't realize Canadians can't discuss world affairs.

Besides that, I'm right.

Uh, Canadians think that because they speak American that they are as good as we are. Or that there is an interchangeability between our two nations.

But our differences are deeper than that. Cultural and almost biological.

For you to believe your opinion on American matters is relevant or workable or even a good idea is about the same as assuming a Corvette is the same as a Corvair.

It's not.

Apples and oranges different.

And here's a fun little img. Nothing personal, mind you. It's just a joke.

DBursey · Dec 19, 2006, 12:24 PM

The police having guns instills fear in the populace.

So how's that Police state coming along, Marden? Are fear and intimidation the order of the day?

Using the exception to represent the whole is proof that the school you attended produces incompetent graduates, right?

This quote nails your modus operandi to the proverbial 'tee'. Merry Christmas Mr Anecdote!

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Typical thought process of extremists.

Well, if you like their system or style of law enforcement and what it produces in the populace, by all means I will vouch for you when it comes to your emigration to the UK.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by DBursey

So how's that Police state coming along, Marden?

This quote nails your modus operandi to the proverbial 'tee'. Merry Christmas Mr Anecdote!

Hi DBursey!

I didn't mean any of that Canadian stuff about you. You are one of the good ones.

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Uh, Canadians think that because they speak American that they are as good as we are. Or that there is an interchangeability between our two nations.

But our differences are deeper than that. Cultural and almost biological.

For you to believe your opinion on American matters is relevant or workable or even a good idea is about the same as assuming a Corvette is the same as a Corvair.

It's not.

Apples and oranges different.

And here's a fun little img. Nothing personal, mind you. It's just a joke.

Actually we speak English. You know, that thing you bastardized?

My opinions on British/American/Chinese etc. matters are just as relevant as yours BTW. See it's called "the world", and it contains more than America.

Doofy · Dec 19, 2006, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

Actually we speak English. You know, that thing you bastardised?

Fixed.

Chuckit · Dec 19, 2006, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Using the exception to represent the whole is proof that the school you attended produces incompetent graduates, right?

Well, OF COURSE NOT!

I was just illustrating the absurdity of your assumption by using the same principle.

If you can dismiss my news story just by going, "Aww, that's the exception to the rule," why couldn't somebody do the same for yours?

Originally Posted by marden

I bet if you dug up some handgun stats you'd see some surprising truths.

So your argument comes down to "I bet whatever I think is right."

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Fixed.

Z

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

Actually we speak English. You know, that thing you bastardized?

My opinions on British/American/Chinese etc. matters are just as relevant as yours BTW. See it's called "the world", and it contains more than America.

Uh, no.

Your opinions may be relevant in CANADA but not so much in China.

Why?

Because you are so provincial it seems it's difficult for you to recognize there must be law enforcement that is in sync with the people. Canadian criminals say please and thank you and apologize to their victims for their offense. In China they say something QUITE different! I won't repeat it here out of common decency.

For the Canadian kind of criminal your opinion is valid. A taser is all the police need up there.

But for you to say that one size of panty fits all waists is absurd.

BTW, maybe that means that Saddam's brutality was just doing the kinds of things to his people that was needed and expected in Iraq. Maybe we are wrong for trying to apply OUR moral panties to their very thick waists.

lpkmckenna · Dec 19, 2006, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Uh, Canadians think [...] that they are as good as we are.

Better, actually.

Originally Posted by marden

Or that there is an interchangeability between our two nations.

No, fortunately.

Originally Posted by marden

For you to believe your opinion on American matters is relevant or workable or even a good idea is about the same as assuming a Corvette is the same as a Corvair.

Uh, this thread started regarding your opinions about British matters, remember?

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Uh, no.

Your opinions may be relevant in CANADA but not so much in China.

Why?

Because you are so provincial it seems it's difficult for you to recognize there must be law enforcement that is in sync with the people. Canadian criminals say please and thank you and apologize to their victims for their offense. In China they say something QUITE different! I won't repeat it here out of common decency.

For the Canadian kind of criminal your opinion is valid. A taser is all the police need up there.

But for you to say that one size of panty fits all waists is absurd.

BTW, maybe that means that Saddam's brutality was just doing the kinds of things to his people that was needed and expected in Iraq. Maybe we are wrong for trying to apply OUR moral panties to their very thick waists.

I didn't think you were this out of touch with reality.

Rumor · Dec 19, 2006, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Uh, no.

Your opinions may be relevant in CANADA but not so much in China.

Why?

Because you are so provincial it seems it's difficult for you to recognize there must be law enforcement that is in sync with the people. Canadian criminals say please and thank you and apologize to their victims for their offense. In China they say something QUITE different! I won't repeat it here out of common decency.

For the Canadian kind of criminal your opinion is valid. A taser is all the police need up there.

But for you to say that one size of panty fits all waists is absurd.

BTW, maybe that means that Saddam's brutality was just doing the kinds of things to his people that was needed and expected in Iraq. Maybe we are wrong for trying to apply OUR moral panties to their very thick waists.

Does anyone else see the irony oozing out of this post?

analogika · Dec 19, 2006, 01:10 PM

Chuckit · Dec 19, 2006, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Does anyone else see the irony oozing out of this post?

Yes. It actually made me laugh out loud.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

If you can dismiss my news story just by going, "Aww, that's the exception to the rule," why couldn't somebody do the same for yours?

Because mine isn't the exception. It is an indication of a real fundamental difference between the average Brit and the average Yank and how we each, personally, and as part of society as a whole, look at violence. I know this to be true. You will discover it's true in time.

Originally Posted by Chuckit

So your argument comes down to "I bet whatever I think is right."

Nope.

Guns in America: National Survey on Private
Ownership and Use of Firearms

by Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig

The United States is unique among wealthy nations
in its vast private inventory of firearms. The
nearly 200 million guns in private hands are used
in part for recreation, mostly hunting and target
shooting. But what engenders the most public
controversy over firearms is their use against
people during either the commission of or defense
against crime.

Gun advocates regard firearms as an important crime
deterrent and source of protection, while control
advocates denounce guns for the damage they do in
the hands of criminals. What both groups can agree
on is that widespread ownership of firearms has an
important impact on the quality of life in America.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/165476.txt

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Better, actually.

No, fortunately.

Uh, this thread started regarding your opinions about British matters, remember?

Then stop your typical Canadian effort of trying to make everything about Canada. Canada. Canada!

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

I didn't think you were this out of touch with reality.

Like I said. You're Canadian.

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Then stop your typical Canadian effort of trying to make everything about Canada. Canada. Canada!

Eh? You brought Canada into this topic.

Are you off your meds?

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Like I said. You're Canadian.

And you're a... a... a... well I haven't quite figured that out yet.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 01:32 PM

[QUOTE=kmkkid;3244305]Eh? You brought Canada into this topic.

Don't try to change the subject.

Originally Posted by kmkkid

Are you off your meds?

No, but maybe I should go to CANADA and get some more at a very cheap price, huh? And while I'm there I could smoke some of the pots.

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

And you're a... a... a... well I haven't quite figured that out yet.

The word you are looking for is "gift." A gift from above.

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by marden

The word you are looking for is "gift." A gift from above.

I was thinking more along the lines of 'a waste of air'.

Chuckit · Dec 19, 2006, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by marden

Because mine isn't the exception. It is an indication of a real fundamental difference between the average Brit and the average Yank and how we each, personally, and as part of society as a whole, look at violence. I know this to be true. You will discover it's true in time.

Whether you "know" it's true or not, it's your responsibility to prove your own claims. That's how argumentation works. You're not going to convince people just by going, "I think this and that."

Dakar² · Dec 19, 2006, 01:37 PM

Tsk, tsk. Another one of marden's threads derailed... by marden?

marden · Dec 19, 2006, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

I was thinking more along the lines of 'a waste of air'.

Giving you guys that fine brew is a waste of beer.