[Kerrigan]

I speak of Europe as a collective entity, and for the purpose of this discussion, let's assume that the EU is one autonomous economic (and, potentially, political) unit.

EU GDP is growing faster than the US (it has been matching the US for years now). The GDP itself is significantly bigger anyways -- simply due to the higher population of the EU.

The euro is now a credible, widely held currency.

France, as poor as it is in terms of per capita wealth, continues to hold a major presence in world affairs (unfortunately).

London's status as a global financial centre is nearing parity with New York.

So, without bashing America, I would like to hear what people think about Europe, and its potential future as the cultural and financial center of the world.

[mac128k-1984]

Yes I believe its a distinct possability. Right now the US economy is being dragged down by a war that has no end in sight, and the president has not formulated an exit strategy. This means money that could have gone into domestic programs is going towards a war (regardless as to how you feel about the war it is costing the US a ton of money).

The domestic economy is under duress as the federal reserve considers wage increases inflation and has worked very hard to keep inflation down (all inflation not just "wages") This has an effect of having less money in consumers pocket to spend.

There is also out sourcing which is removing jobs from the economy.

Lack of a balanced budget which means more and more of our taxes has to go towards paying off the debt and not providing services.

The trade deficit; that is we have less industry exporting goods and services then what we are importing.

These are but a few issues that I see and I'm sure they are not unique to the US but I don't know too many countries struggling with all of them (as we are).

[Zarqawi's Eye]

The Poser Satan has many obstacles to overcome before it is a superpower. First and foremost, the EU, as the infidels know it, must be capable of projecting military might worldwide. Until it can do so, as the Great Satan does, it will remain an economic Sam's Club with penis envy.

[Kerrigan]

You always crack me up Zarqawi (pbuh)!

[Zarqawi's Eye]

I am possessed of a wisdom that reaches beyond life and death - wisdom that is only gained through the anal penetration of a Hellfire missile traveling at 400 kilometers per second, bending time and space on its righteous trajectory of justice.

[Chuckit]

Your first mistake was speaking of Europe as a collective entity. None of the actually important nations will look at it that way.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

Yes I believe its a distinct possability. Right now the US economy is being dragged down…

No it's not. This economy has performed fantastically.

Lack of a balanced budget which means more and more of our taxes has to go towards paying off the debt and not providing services.

Providing more "services"…which we already spend bazillions of $$ on…would help HOW exactly? (in competing with the EU) And we both know that even a huge surplus would never go toward paying any significant amount of debt. The money grubbing politicians would never stand for it. They would throw a few politically motivated targeted tax cuts in the mix and put more money into their favorite programs.

There is also out sourcing which is removing jobs from the economy.

One of the reasons for outsourcing is because of the HUGE wage differential between the US and other countries…which is due to our fantastic economy and prosperity.

The trade deficit; that is we have less industry exporting goods and services then what we are importing.

…I'm sure they are not unique to the US but I don't know too many countries struggling with all of them (as we are).

That trade deficit is so big and so unique because there is SO MUCH economic prosperity here. If our economy were doing the things you mention then we couldn't support such a high amount of imports, because there would be no money to support it.

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Your first mistake was speaking of Europe as a collective entity. None of the actually important nations will look at it that way.

I think if the conditions are right you could see a more cohesive union, right now its fragmented. They are moving towards more united europe and peoples (and nations) attitudes towards this will change especially if the promise of prosperity is hanging in front of them like a carrot.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

No it's not. This economy has performed fantastically.

In comparison to Europe?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

I think if the conditions are right you could see a more cohesive union, right now its fragmented. They are moving towards more united europe and peoples (and nations) attitudes towards this will change especially if the promise of prosperity is hanging in front of them like a carrot.

I think it's a valid criticism to say that Europe may have as much if not more economic clout than the US but it is unable to wield that economic power in the same way as the US because the economic power is dispersed across the member states. There is no political centralisation of the power. And it's unlikely to happen for some time.

However, in extreme cases that provoke European consensus, the economic power can be wielded successfully and I think to deny that the EU as a whole is not a superpower, is ridiculous.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

So, without bashing America, I would like to hear what people think about Europe, and its potential future as the cultural and financial center of the world.

Are we talking about the entirety of future history? Of course its possible for Europe to become the cultural and financial center of the world--what would prevent that? Given enough time, its possible for any country or trading group to become the leader at some point.

If you're referring to a possibility within our lifetime I would say Europe has an even chance of taking that status. A few more poorly planned, poorly executed, costly wars and I can't see how the U.S. could hold on.

[Zarqawi's Eye]

I will deny such a claim, at the supposed risk of sounding ridiculous.

The EU is but the pouting little sister to the Great Satan. It writhes in mediocrity while the world progresses around it. Bent inward, and burdened with a militant, disgruntled, and over-taxed populace, it moves as if weighted by the planets.

This Petulant Satan, until it builds its own warships, warplanes, and armies, and projects them in victorious violence around the world, will remain simply a place to sell third-world goods to decadent infidels slothing at the trough of comfort.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Zarqawi's Eye 

I am possessed of a wisdom that reaches beyond life and death - wisdom that is only gained through the anal penetration of a Hellfire missile traveling at 400 kilometers per second, bending time and space on its righteous trajectory of justice.

Sorry to hear of your accident.

[PER3]

Originally Posted by BlueSky 

Sorry to hear of your accident.

Well, at least it seems to have cleared the blockage.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Troll 

I think it's a valid criticism to say that Europe may have as much if not more economic clout than the US but it is unable to wield that economic power in the same way as the US because the economic power is dispersed across the member states. There is no political centralisation of the power. And it's unlikely to happen for some time.

However, in extreme cases that provoke European consensus, the economic power can be wielded successfully and I think to deny that the EU as a whole is not a superpower, is ridiculous.

Agreed, absoloutly.

I think that the diversity and the decentrilization is a strength rather than weakness. While I appreciate the EU as it is I think it is time to start thinking about slowing down centralization and expansion, excepting the Nordic countries that haven't joined yet.

A united Europe is very powerful, and indeed an economic superpower, but due to its decentrialized nature it is very hard - perhaps impossible - for any single entity to abuse that power. At the same time it is very difficult to undermine that power, for the very same reason.

Those are my thoughts on the subject. I don't know if Europe, under the EU, will become a 'superpower' in my lifetime. That would require much further consolidation of the memberstates and a huge army.

I hope not.

V

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

I speak of Europe as a collective entity, and for the purpose of this discussion, let's assume that the EU is one autonomous economic (and, potentially, political) unit.

EU GDP is growing faster than the US (it has been matching the US for years now). The GDP itself is significantly bigger anyways -- simply due to the higher population of the EU.

The euro is now a credible, widely held currency.

France, as poor as it is in terms of per capita wealth, continues to hold a major presence in world affairs (unfortunately).

London's status as a global financial centre is nearing parity with New York.

So, without bashing America, I would like to hear what people think about Europe, and its potential future as the cultural and financial center of the world.

You meant to say mainland China as the next financial center of the world?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

There is also out sourcing which is removing jobs from the economy.

Outsourcing? I hope that 1984, 128k Mac is all you've got. If not and it's a real recent purchase online, you may be able to cancel with any one of the helpful Apple reps in Bangalore, India. Unless you're not too terribly concerned with outsourcing.

If we could only come down a little harder on the ones in the US hiring illegals...

[:dragonflypro:]

The EU has a horrific population renewal rate and it's pension/social liabilities alone are a death knell to the economy.

Sure the GDP is on the rise, but percentage of GDP expenditures is also accelerating. Unemployment is also a problem.

This can also be said of mainland China.

As long as birth rates decrease the social systems will continue to edge toward collapse. Offsetting that decrease by immigration is the current solution. That will however drastically alter the societal makeup of the EU.

So even if the EU becomes the 'next super power' the society will mirror very little of old Europe.

T

[Zarqawi's Eye]

The nations of Old Europe will never stand for changes to their racial ratios. The liberal governments and citizen ideologues, though they preach benevolence, tolerance, and acceptance, burn inside with a hate for non-whites. Turks, Arabs, and many others face the scorn and oppression of White Europe.

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro: 

The EU has a horrific population renewal rate and it's pension/social liabilities alone are a death knell to the economy.

and social security isn't the death knell to out economy?

While our population is growing it isn't growing enough to pay for those baby boomers who will be retiring shortly. With the governement's inability to make some hard decisions now means only harsher consequences down the road for retirees and those people who are still working.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Zarqawi's Eye 

I am possessed of a wisdom that reaches beyond life and death - wisdom that is only gained through the anal penetration of a Hellfire missile traveling at 400 kilometers per second, bending time and space on its righteous trajectory of justice.

Did you at least get the courtesy of a reach around?

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

and social security isn't the death knell to out economy?

…don't disagree at all. Just trying to stay on topic.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by Zarqawi's Eye 

Turks, Arabs, and many others face the scorn and oppression of White Europe.

Heh, they'll be >50% of the population in 1.2 generations, so at least the scorn won't last.

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro: 

…don't disagree at all. Just trying to stay on topic.

You're right, I'm not familar with the issues regarding retirement that europe is facing, but I am familar with the issues in the US and its down right scary. I'm part of the baby boom generation and (tail end) and to see congress continually pass the buck on reform knowing full well that at some point drastic steps will need to be taken.

Additionally what people have not thought about was what happens to the US stock market when these folks who poured billions of dollars into the stock market start drawing and taking the money out. I don't think anyone has given this any serious though but at some point in the future you're going to have more people withdrawing money from 401ks, 403bs and pension plans then depositing it. What effect will that have on the stocks?

[voodoo]

Always it amazes me how it is only Americans who don't understand anything and talk out of their ass when it comes to Europe.

The occational Italian as well. (to be fair)

Zarqawi is insane, as is anyone who agrees with him. Bear that in mind.

V

[analogika]

You read his posts?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by analogika 

You read his posts?

No I used the Force.

V