[Taliesin]

The peaceprocess is stuck in the middle of nowhere. Either side doesn't want to make the crucial compromises needed to get it on.

Hamas continues to follow its maximalistic goal of liberating all of Palestine or as Hamas says it themselves:

Hamas does not only demand an end to the occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.

It also refuses to relinquish claims to the lands lost to Israel in the war of 1948.

It regards the uprooting of the Palestinian people as a vast injustice that will - eventually - be reversed.

"This land must be governed by the Muslims - not by the Israelis or the Zionists," says Ahmad , referring to all the territory from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean.

"We believe this is our land - but we can give the Jewish people the right to live among us".

Source: BBC NEWS | Middle East | Hamas survives one year of power

So, their dream is still an islamic state from the mediterranean sea to the jordan river, where the jewish people could live too, but as secondclass-citizens.

To underline their goal and dream, Hamas supported rocketfiring from Gaza into Israel as well as the kidnapping of an israeli soldier, and they get much sympathy from the palestinian people for it, because of the continuing and even worsening reality of the decades-long occupation in the westbank, with crippling checkpoints, land-expropriations, ressources-divertion, legal chains, raids, assassinations, detentions without charge, torture and economic strangulation, and equally devastating effects in the evacuated Gaza through Israel's control of air, sea and borders:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel's 'invisible hand' in Gaza

After Israel evacuated its settlers from Gaza, it decided to expand settlements in the westbank, and the newest plan is even to build new settlements in the westbank to make room for parts of the evacuated ex-Gaza-settlers:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel approves W Bank settlement


Israel's own civil administration-survey from 2004 makes clear that nearly 40% of the land used for the settlements in the westbank, got illegaly (illegal even according to israeli law) expropriated from private palestinian owners:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Settlements 'violate Israeli law'


As it appears Israel's schoolbooks were portraying the occupied territories as being part of Israel, as the row surrounding Israel's education minister and peace-now-founder Ms. Tamir, who ordered a change, revealed:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Row erupts over Israeli textbooks

Meanwhile Lebanon's Hezbollah kidnapped two israeli soldiers killing eight others, provoking Israel into a well-prepared for guerillia-war in Lebanon, leading to hundreds of civilian deaths, due to israeli airbombardments, including the use of phosphor as a weapon and clusterbombs by Israel's airforce, as well as the use of Katjusha-rockets by Hezbollah.
The war didn't achieve the desired results, ie. liberation of the kidnapped soldiers, destruction of Hezbollah's military wing, prevention of Katjusha-rocket-firing, and led instead to the vast destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure, emboldening of Hezbollah, that now together with christian allies in Lebanon threatens the status-quo of Lebanon's government.
For that failure, Israel's military chief took responsibility and resigned:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel's military chief resigns

Iran as one of the main-supporters of the Hezbollah also profited hugely from that war, feeling emboldened to continue its striving for a full nuclear-enrichment-cycle-program useable for generating electricity as well as for producing nukes, with the US being bound in Iraq's quagmire, and Israel facing a crisis of trust in Israel's government and army.

Shortly before Israel's lebanon-war, Syria and Israel held apparantely secret peace-negotiations, where a series of agreements were reached, but the war stopped it for now:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Syrians and Israelis 'held talks'

Syria is in a tough spot, facing the UN-tribunal in Lebanon regarding the assassination of the anti-syrian lebanese politician Hariri, and supports Hezbollah to significantly strenghten its share in the government, aiming for the right to vetoe decisions, in order to prevent the tribunal.

The palestinians trying to form a national-unity-government in order to convince the western powers to abolish the political and economic sanctions put upon them because of Hamas' uncompromising principles, nearly slided into civil-war between Fatah- and Hamas-followers:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | No agreement in Palestinian talks

If the talks between Hamas and Fatah don't lead to a national government that respects Israel's existence within the 67-borders, Abbas wants to hold reelections. The western powers and Israel have decided to support Abbas and his Fatah-party politically, financially and military:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Abbas calls for Palestinian poll

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel hands Abbas frozen funds

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Abbas forces get weapons shipment

What do you think? What should be done to revitalise the peace-process? How can Hamas be forced to soften its stance and to recognize Israel within the 67-borders and to dismantle its military cells? What can be done to dismantle Israel's settler-movement and why is Israel not sanctioned internationally for its internationally as well as regarding Israel's law illegal colonising by heavily armed israeli settlers in the westbank?

Taliesin

[Atheist]

I honestly and truly believe there will NEVER be a lasting peace in the Middle East. Cynical? Yes. Realistic? Yes.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

What do you think? What should be done to revitalise the peace-process? How can Hamas be forced to soften its stance and to recognize Israel within the 67-borders and to dismantle its military cells? What can be done to dismantle Israel's settler-movement and why is Israel not sanctioned internationally for its internationally as well as regarding Israel's law illegal colonising by heavily armed israeli settlers in the westbank?

Taliesin

People who are willing to fight to the death over a bunch of desert wasteland should be allowed to do that: fight to the death. Have them keep fighting until most/all of them die. If they keep killing off one another maybe someday it won't be an issue we need to be involved with and we can abandon the whole Middle East and minimize its significance in US foreign policy.

[Sky Captain]

Let's see.
There's violence over Israelis setteling "Arab land".
There's Mexicans pouring over the borders and settling in the US. But there's no violence.
I see the pattern here.

[Kevin]

Again like I have been saying for years, and have been told I was wrong. They don't want to live Peacefully with the Israelis. They want to make it so hard on them that they leave. Like they did with the rest of the ME. This is their M.O.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

What do you think?

Taliesin

I think that any thread on this here on MacNN is doomed to be a failure. Just look at the replies so far.


But as for what needs to be done to create peace in the Crescent. UN/EU/US/whomever needs to send a powerful military there. Give the Israeli settlers 1 week to decide if they want to live in Israel or in Palestine. After that evict those who don't want to leave (about 80% of them) by force.

After that enforce the '67 borders for both parties. If an Israeli fighter jet wants to do a recon run beyond that border it gets shot down. If a Palestinian terrorist tries to shoot rockets over he gets shot on the spot.

Enforce the water rights like everywhere else. And so on.

Do this for 50-70 years.

Nothing else will work because both sides are today to busy hating the other side instead of wanting peace. Today it's more important to kill someone on the other side than trying to make your life better.

That's what's needed.

[Sky Captain]

The Palestinians are killing each other/hating each other to make matters worse.

And I agree with this:

But as for what needs to be done to create peace in the Crescent. UN/EU/US/whomever needs to send a powerful military there. Give the Israeli settlers 1 week to decide if they want to live in Israel or in Palestine. After that evict those who don't want to leave (about 80% of them) by force.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

The Palestinians are killing each other/hating each other to make matters worse.

And I agree with this:

The centuries old tactic of divide and conquer is still working wonderfully. I just couldn't believe it (when it all started) that they would actually fall for that.




(and we agree on something?? )

[Kevin]

Sayf you are stating what YOU want to happen. This has no bearing on what those that are causing the trouble WANT. Which is different from what you stated. They want Israel GONE. All of it.

What does one do?

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Sayf you are stating what YOU want to happen. This has no bearing on what those that are causing the trouble WANT. Which is different from what you stated. They want Israel GONE. All of it.

What does one do?

From the OP:

Originally Posted by Taliesin

What do you think? What should be done to revitalise the peace-process? How can Hamas be forced to soften its stance and to recognize Israel within the 67-borders and to dismantle its military cells? What can be done to dismantle Israel's settler-movement and why is Israel not sanctioned internationally for its internationally as well as regarding Israel's law illegal colonising by heavily armed israeli settlers in the westbank?

[Kevin]

Yes he was asking what you thought about what they had to say. Instead you gave what you thought Israel should do that would make peace. Which really had nothing to do with what they had to say. Not to mention how your plan still doesn't meet the goals of those making statements above.

How do you feel about what these people have said? What their plans are. That is what he is asking.

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Either side doesn't want to make the crucial compromises needed to get it on.

Important point. Unfortunately, the right-wing Zionist sympathisers, on MacNN and in the White House, continue to ignore the fact that Israel is also responsible for the absence of realistic peace prospects.

Israel has to be perceived to be under continuous attack, it's her raison-de-etre and her only way of getting away with the human rights violations she keeps committing.

What needs to be done is reduce US influence in the region, as well as the Zionist influence on American politics.

Won't happen, of course.

[Kevin]

Again if isreal is left alone Israel will leave a lone. That isn't zionism. That is just common sense.

What isn't common sense is blaming Israel for a group that prays for it's distruction daily as if it were a legitamite cause.

[OAW]

The situation in the Palestine/Israel is seriously screwed up. Without question. And there doesn't seem to be any significant prospects for peace on the horizon. IMO, you have the following situation ....

A. Well-financed, well-organized, and well-armed European (for the most part) settlers have gained control of land that does not belong to them and over which they have a "dubious" historical claim ... at best. And they aren't leaving because the indigenous population doesn't have the strength to force them.

B. Relatively poor, somewhat organized, and poorly armed Arab indigenous population living as virtual prisoners in the occupied territories, with the remainder living as refugees in other Arab nations. And they aren't willing to give up their legitimate claim to the land despite their circumstances, but don't have the strength to make it happen.

The only way I see peace happening is if one of the following solutions is adopted:

1. Israel and the Occupied Territories are merged into an Israel-Palestine confederation with Jerusalem as it's capital. Regions are fairly autonomous with centralized control of infrastructure and security. Palestinian refugees are allowed to return to the country. Everyone is allowed to vote, Israelis and Palestinians, for a representative government.

2. A two-state solution where Israel and Palestine both exist. Perhaps Gaza is given to Israel in exchange for more land in the West Bank so Palestine is contiguous. Perhaps not. Palestinian refugees can return to Palestine, and a certain number can return to Israel. Dual-citizenship is allowed. Palestinians in Israel (e.g. Israeli Arabs and Palestinian returnees) must abide by Israeli law. Israelis in Palestine (e.g. West Bank settlers) must abide by Palestinian law. Jerusalem is the capital of both states. The west side is administered by Israel. The east side is administered by Palestine. Non-agression treaty between the two states. Perhaps even a mutual defense treaty.

Of course, #1 will never happen because the Palestinians would outnumber the Israelis ... especially if the refugees were allowed to return and the Israelis would never go for it since it would dilute their political power. Just goes to show you that the Israelis are all for "democracy", but only as long as the state remains under Israeli control. But if they did go for it you would have a situation similar to South African, where political control is in the hands of the indigenous population, but economic control is in the hands of the European settlers.

# 2 is more likely if the US, the only country with any real influence over Israel, forced them to do it. The US would have to have the political will to put the sacred cow of 3+ billion dollars in annual aid to Israel on the table in order to make this happen. The US would also have to put its UN Security Council veto, which has historically been used to shield Israel from legally binding condemnation for its actions, on the table. Hamas and other like-minded groups would have to be made to agree to a long-term truce with Israel. They will likely never accept Israel's "right to exist" on principle. But they might (and have offered) to live side by side with Israel as a "de facto" reality, provided they get something in return from Israel that allows them to convince themselves that they are staying true to their platform. Hence, my suggestion that a certain number of Palestinian refugees be allowed to return to Israel. That was, after all, the reason why Yasser Arafat walked away from the deal that Ehud Barak offered at Camp David.

But in all likelihood, we'll just see more of the status quo. The appetite for death and destruction simply still exists on both sides.

OAW

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by OAW 

B. Relatively poor, somewhat organized, and poorly armed Arab indigenous population living as virtual prisoners in the occupied territories, with the remainder living as refugees in other Arab nations. And they aren't willing to give up their legitimate claim to the land despite their circumstances, but don't have the strength to make it happen.


OAW

1967. Who was outnumbered and out gunned?

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

1967. Who was outnumbered and out gunned?

You are talking about Israel in relation to all of the neighboring Arab countries. I am speaking of Israel in relation to the Palestinian population. Two totally different topics. Only one of which is relevant to this thread.

OAW

[Sky Captain]

Quite relevent.
They had their chance to remove the Israelis.
And lost. Twice.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Let's see.
There's violence over Israelis setteling "Arab land".
There's Mexicans pouring over the borders and settling in the US. But there's no violence.
I see the pattern here.

Hmm, are these mexican immigrants heavily armed? Are they supported by the mexican government for stealing land and ressources, and trying to get the mexican government to annex the areas they have successfully driven out the american population from.

I don't think so.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Again like I have been saying for years, and have been told I was wrong. They don't want to live Peacefully with the palestinians of the occupied territories. They want to make it so hard on them that they leave. Like they did with the rest of Israel. This is their M.O.

Fixed.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

But as for what needs to be done to create peace in the Crescent. UN/EU/US/whomever needs to send a powerful military there. Give the Israeli settlers 1 week to decide if they want to live in Israel or in Palestine. After that evict those who don't want to leave (about 80% of them) by force.

After that enforce the '67 borders for both parties. If an Israeli fighter jet wants to do a recon run beyond that border it gets shot down. If a Palestinian terrorist tries to shoot rockets over he gets shot on the spot.

Enforce the water rights like everywhere else. And so on.

Do this for 50-70 years.

Nothing else will work because both sides are today to busy hating the other side instead of wanting peace. Today it's more important to kill someone on the other side than trying to make your life better.

That's what's needed.

Good idea, but hard to turn into reality. The problem is to organize an unbiased, just and brave UN-force, that would be willing to work for years and decades, even if it means to accept losses.
Currently nations are not ready to sacrifice their soldiers and their money for projects that they can't get immediate and direct benifit from.

It needs not only major reform of the UN, but also major changes in the mindset of the nations and the international community.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Sayf you are stating what YOU want to happen. This has no bearing on what those that are causing the trouble WANT. Which is different from what you stated. They want Palestine GONE. All of it.

What does one do?

Fixed.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Again if isreal is left alone Israel will leave a lone. That isn't zionism. That is just common sense.

What isn't common sense is blaming Israel for a group that prays for it's distruction daily as if it were a legitamite cause.

The idea that if the palestinians stopped to use violence and accept Israel, that Israel would in return become peaceful is a naive wish but it has no grip on reality. Israel has conducted a settler-program in cooperation with an oppressive occupation for decades that is undermining the viability of life for the palestinians in the occupied territories.
That settler-program, including diverting waterressources away from the palestinians, expropriating arable land from the palestinians, building networks of streets on palestinian land that palestinians are prohibitted to use and many other legal hardhships, expanded and expands faster in peaceful times than in violent times.

It's a reality that the settlermovement and its highly influential supporters in Israel's politics are praying and working daily for the destruction of Palestine, as if it were a legitimate cause.

Taliesin

[Hawkeye_a]

Of course, the problem is with Israel. i strongly doubt they want to live in peace.

Look at how well the followers of Islam negioate and conduct warfare with others around the world. I mean it's obvious that everyone else(non muslims) are the blood thirsty ones, and specifically choose to target civilians.

Jews/Christians wants peace ? ptftt... youve got to be joking. their entire purpose on this planet is to dominate the would geographically, which is why they are at war with everyone. you only need look at how much land they have conquered with their swords and opressive rule.

/end sarcasm

G'day.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by OAW 

The situation in the Palestine/Israel is seriously screwed up. Without question. And there doesn't seem to be any significant prospects for peace on the horizon. IMO, you have the following situation ....

A. Well-financed, well-organized, and well-armed European (for the most part) settlers have gained control of land that does not belong to them and over which they have a "dubious" historical claim ... at best. And they aren't leaving because the indigenous population doesn't have the strength to force them.

B. Relatively poor, somewhat organized, and poorly armed Arab indigenous population living as virtual prisoners in the occupied territories, with the remainder living as refugees in other Arab nations. And they aren't willing to give up their legitimate claim to the land despite their circumstances, but don't have the strength to make it happen.

The only way I see peace happening is if one of the following solutions is adopted:

1. Israel and the Occupied Territories are merged into an Israel-Palestine confederation with Jerusalem as it's capital. Regions are fairly autonomous with centralized control of infrastructure and security. Palestinian refugees are allowed to return to the country. Everyone is allowed to vote, Israelis and Palestinians, for a representative government.

2. A two-state solution where Israel and Palestine both exist. Perhaps Gaza is given to Israel in exchange for more land in the West Bank so Palestine is contiguous. Perhaps not. Palestinian refugees can return to Palestine, and a certain number can return to Israel. Dual-citizenship is allowed. Palestinians in Israel (e.g. Israeli Arabs and Palestinian returnees) must abide by Israeli law. Israelis in Palestine (e.g. West Bank settlers) must abide by Palestinian law. Jerusalem is the capital of both states. The west side is administered by Israel. The east side is administered by Palestine. Non-agression treaty between the two states. Perhaps even a mutual defense treaty.

Of course, #1 will never happen because the Palestinians would outnumber the Israelis ... especially if the refugees were allowed to return and the Israelis would never go for it since it would dilute their political power. Just goes to show you that the Israelis are all for "democracy", but only as long as the state remains under Israeli control. But if they did go for it you would have a situation similar to South African, where political control is in the hands of the indigenous population, but economic control is in the hands of the European settlers.

# 2 is more likely if the US, the only country with any real influence over Israel, forced them to do it. The US would have to have the political will to put the sacred cow of 3+ billion dollars in annual aid to Israel on the table in order to make this happen. The US would also have to put its UN Security Council veto, which has historically been used to shield Israel from legally binding condemnation for its actions, on the table. Hamas and other like-minded groups would have to be made to agree to a long-term truce with Israel. They will likely never accept Israel's "right to exist" on principle. But they might (and have offered) to live side by side with Israel as a "de facto" reality, provided they get something in return from Israel that allows them to convince themselves that they are staying true to their platform. Hence, my suggestion that a certain number of Palestinian refugees be allowed to return to Israel. That was, after all, the reason why Yasser Arafat walked away from the deal that Ehud Barak offered at Camp David.

But in all likelihood, we'll just see more of the status quo. The appetite for death and destruction simply still exists on both sides.

OAW

Good posting and arguments.

One of the problems I see is also the portrayal of the conflict. Usually it's seen as Israel being unwelcome in a hostile arab world, where the neighbours use the palestinians to pressurize Israel, after they lost direct confrontation, and Israel merely defends itself.

While there is some truth in that portray, it's also clear that it is hopelessly incomplete, biased and full of lies and halftruths.

In fact we have that scenario from above and on top of that the scenario of Israel's ideologies, policies and actions, and the scenarion of the palestinians, their motives, aspirations and problems.

For example, we have the decades-long-occupation with all its symptoms and on top of that Israel's highly subsidized and aggressive settler-movement in the occupied territories, and then we have palestinian militants that use indiscriminate violence to fight against the occupation and the settler-movement.

Only the latter though gets media-time, and Israel's actions by its army then portrayed as a legitimate reaction towards the palestinian militant's actions, that seem uncalled for.

So what we need is a more complete picture and juster assessments, and then the will to take both sides into responsibility and to create a political perspective for a just compromise between the two sides, and then once the just peace-compromise-model has been established, to do everything to make it a reality, which means to call for dismantling of the palestinian extremist-groups, as well as the israeli settler-movement, that would defenitely work against any compromise.

In order to bring weight behind the call, it is necessary that the UN-security-council put sanctions upon Israel and the PA, and to gradually intensify them, until they comply.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

1967. Who was outnumbered and out gunned?

The arabs.

It should be clear to you, Sky Captain, that in modern wars it is of utmost importance to gain the initiantive and if possible the dominance in the air-space. Israel saw that, and cleverly and admirably destroyed Egypt's airforce before it could take off, and established its dominance in the air, the rest was history.

Taliesin

[Kevin]

And good for them. Israel has the right to defend itself from those that want it destroyed.

It should practice that right more often.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Of course, the problem is with Israel. i strongly doubt they want to live in peace.

Look at how well the followers of Islam negioate and conduct warfare with others around the world. I mean it's obvious that everyone else(non muslims) are the blood thirsty ones, and specifically choose to target civilians.

Jews/Christians wants peace ? ptftt... youve got to be joking. their entire purpose on this planet is to dominate the would geographically, which is why they are at war with everyone. you only need look at how much land they have conquered with their swords and opressive rule.

/end sarcasm

G'day.

There is no need for sarcasm, it's true, but it's equally true that muslims have also been violent and oppressive in their history, so noone is really innocent.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

And good for them. Israel has the right to defend itself from those that want it destroyed.

It should practice that right more often.

Definitely, the actions of Israel in the 67 war were justifiable, and eventhough it was Israel that ultimately started the war, the arabs would have done so anyway, not much later.

But what is not justifiable is Israel's occupation of the palestinians and the support for the settler-movement in the occupied territories and its numerous crimes against humanity that are the result of these two.

Taliesin

[Hawkeye_a]

Crimes against humanity are (to name just a select FEW):
-forcing women(half the population) to cover themselves up or do anything they did not want to. (dress code is JUST one example)
-forcing entire civilizations into exile due to different religions (Jews, Christians, Farsis,etc)
-blowing up civilians intentionally and making martrys out of murderers

Solve those issues in your own society before pointing fingers at others who in all honesty, couldnt give a rats ass if you(Arab refugees by choice) live or die.

Israel exists as a safe haven for Jews in the region, since no other muslim country would let them live as equals. The Jews put up with living as second-class-citizens in the region long enough. You seem to think Israel exists to make life for the arab refugees hell. you can have that opinion.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Crimes against humanity are (to name just a select FEW):
-forcing women(half the population) to cover themselves up or do anything they did not want to. (dress code is JUST one example)
-forcing entire civilizations into exile due to different religions (Jews, Christians, Farsis,etc)
-blowing up civilians intentionally and making martrys out of murderers

Solve those issues in your own society before pointing fingers at others who in all honesty, couldnt give a rats ass if you(Arab refugees by choice) live or die.

Israel exists as a safe haven for Jews in the region, since no other muslim country would let them live as equals. The Jews put up with living as second-class-citizens in the region long enough. You seem to think Israel exists to make life for the arab refugees hell. you can have that opinion.

Funny thing, and I always thought Israel was created as a safe haven, because european christians and their countries couldn't let jews live as equals, or just living at all.

But otherwise, you have a point, noone is innocent and blameless.

Taliesin

[Hawkeye_a]

Except that in 2006, N.America, Europe and Australia, people live in societies with a level of equality and freedom probably never experienced before in human history. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Athiests, Blacks, White, brown, yellow, etc....

But it's the land of the infadels...how could it have acheived this ? maybe we made a pact with the devil ?

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Except that in 2006, N.America, Europe and Australia, people live in societies with a level of equality and freedom probably never experienced before in human history. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Athiests, Blacks, White, brown, yellow, etc....

But it's the land of the infadels...how could it have acheived this ? maybe we made a pact with the devil ?

I agree, the western world is definitely more free and liberal than the islamic world.

But what is your point?

Taliesin

[bstone]

[QUOTE=red rocket;3281466]Important point. Unfortunately, the right-wing Zionist sympathisers, on MacNN and in the White House, continue to ignore the fact that Israel is also responsible for the absence of realistic peace prospects.
/QUOTE]

No™. Israel offered the PA everything they ever wanted and then some.

Arafat rejected without even a counter-offer.

So, No™.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by bstone 

No™. Israel offered the PA everything they ever wanted and then some.

Arafat rejected without even a counter-offer.

So, No™.

BS™.

And you know it.

BS™.






ps. I like this way of arguing. Hope it catches on. Will be great for the forum!

[Kevin]

Sayf why don't you answer the questions I asked you?

[bstone]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

BS™.

And you know it.

BS™.






ps. I like this way of arguing. Hope it catches on. Will be great for the forum!

No™.
And you know it. ™

Fmr Pres. Clinton, Dennis Ross, Albright all say it was the best offer and Arafat left without even a counter-offer.

©If it is BS, at least it don't stink©

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Sayf why don't you answer the questions I asked you?

Because there has never been a point in debating anything with you so far and I'm guessing that's not going to change.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by bstone 

No™.
And you know it. ™

Fmr Pres. Clinton, Dennis Ross, Albright all say it was the best offer and Arafat left without even a counter-offer.

©If it is BS, at least it don't stink©

© Fat men sitting in the sun making useless offers? I'm sure it stank a lot. ©

So since they "Israel offered the PA everything they ever wanted and then some" could you show me where they offered the PA Western Jerusalem, a free and independent Palestinian state with the whole of the 67 borders and the complete respect for the right of return?

You should be able to do that since "Israel offered the PA everything they ever wanted and then some".™™™

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by bstone 

No™. Israel offered the PA everything they ever wanted and then some.

Arafat rejected without even a counter-offer.

So, No™.

Really? Israel offered the palestinians the full right of return to Israel and full palestinian souvereignity over East-Jerusalem?

Probably you are thinking about the Barak-offer. That was indeed the most generous offer an israeli official made, but it was still not acceptable.

The offer was this: That the palestinians should be content with a state within 80% of the westbank without any part of Jerusalem, and of course not with any right of return into Israel.

Remember Israel already has 78% of the territory, the palestinians want the rest, ie. 22%. The Barak -offer meant to be content with 80% of the 22%, and to tolerate israeli-only roads, bridges and tunnels guarded by israeli soldiers, through the midst of the westbank and control of the borders, therefore cutting the westbank in effect into chunks. And I'm not even talking about the waterressources.

It was the absolute right decision to reject the offer, although one can criticize the style and way in which the rejection happened, ie. without making a counter-offer.

Taliesin

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Because there has never been a point in debating anything with you so far and I'm guessing that's not going to change.

Copout answer. I wasn't asking you to debate with me. I was asking you to reply to the OP's requests.

I repeat

Yes he was asking what you thought about what they had to say. Instead you gave what you thought Israel should do that would make peace. Which really had nothing to do with what they had to say. Not to mention how your plan still doesn't meet the goals of those making statements above.

How do you feel about what these people have said? What their plans are. That is what he was asking

You don't have to debate with ME.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Copout answer. I wasn't asking you to debate with me. I was asking you to reply to the OP's requests.

I repeat



You don't have to debate with ME.

Then why are you so worried about it? Shouldn't you worry about your own lack of contribution to the thread instead?




Don't answer that please. I'm not going to play this game with you anymore. You'll have to find someone else to bicker with.

[Big Mac]

Can we rename the title of this thread? There's no such thing as "Palestine."

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Then why are you so worried about it? Shouldn't you worry about your own lack of contribution to the thread instead?

Don't answer that please. I'm not going to play this game with you anymore. You'll have to find someone else to bicker with.

In other words, you totally want to dodge the fact that these so called peaceful people don't want what you think Israel should do to appease them. They want Israel gone as I have said all along. They don't want to comprimise. They want all of Israel gone or they wont be happy. The claim that if Israel will give certain small amount of the land they own back to them this will all stop is a pipe dream not based on reality.

For some reason you never want to address this. You'll use personal attacks and straw-men to dodge it like you just did above.

That isn't very honest.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Can we rename the title of this thread? There's no such thing as "Palestine."

I agree. It should say "The bloodthirsty Jew haters and the Zionist entity (Satan's pig) - the sequel".

Tal, you agree?

[Taliesin]

I merely want to offer a site detailing Barak's generous offer:
Gush Shalom - Israeli Peace Bloc

Nice.

Taliesin

[Kevin]

It doesn't matter WHAT offer is given to them. Unless it's the removal of the state ran by the Jews they wont be happy. And since that isn't going to happen, what should we do?

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

In other words, you totally want to dodge the fact that these so called peaceful people don't want what you think Israel should do to appease them. They want Israel gone as I have said all along. They don't want to comprimise. They want all of Israel gone or they wont be happy. The claim that if Israel will give certain small amount of the land they own back to them this will all stop is a pipe dream not based on reality.

For some reason you never want to address this. You'll use personal attacks and straw-men to dodge it like you just did above.

That isn't very honest.

But I want to address this: On both sides there are factions that want to become the controlling force over all of the territory between sea and river. On the palestinian's side, it is Hamas, and other islamistic militant groups, and on the israeli's side, it is the highly influential settler-movement.

Both, the settler-movement, as well as the islamistic militant groups need to be eventually broken up, but in order for that to happen, there must be a viable perspective for a peaceful compromise, so that the people living there can distance themselves from the israeli and palestinian extremists.

Taliesin

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

It doesn't matter WHAT offer is given to them. Unless it's the removal of the state ran by the Jews they wont be happy. And since that isn't going to happen, what should we do?

Kevin's totally right. I think that's one of the main reason why the Arabs reject everything in favor of violence. If they were to get a terror state carved out of Israel, it would make it a bit harder for them to continue toward their ultimate goal: Israel's destruction. I imagine that's one of the main reasons why they haven't yet attempted to declare a state unilaterally.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Kevin's totally right. I think that's one of the main reason why the Arabs reject everything in favor of violence. If they were to get a terror state carved out of Israel, it would make it a bit harder for them to continue toward their ultimate goal: Israel's destruction. I imagine that's one of the main reasons why they haven't yet attempted to declare a state unilaterally.

Weren't you the one who viewed everything between mediterannean sea and Jordan river as being Eretz-Israel?

You are obviously a sympathisant of the settler-movement in the occupied territories. Wait, according to you, there is no occupation, no palestinians...just some alien invaders that want to carve something out of Israel.

Fortunately not all of israelis have that twisted worldview.

Taliesin

[Big Mac]

Yes, I am proponent of Greater Israel and the state of Israel spanning all of Eretz Yisrael - from the Nile to the Euphrates. There is no occupation by Israel today because the land being discussed is not Arab land, and the "Palestinian" identity is fraudulent. But aside from that I am talking about Arab motivations.