[macintologist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yco1deXOzN8

Could you imagine just driving in your own neighborhood and some pompous military occupiers drive like madmen bumping into your car. Are these punks going to get a ticket for aggressive driving, going on the wrong side of the road.. etc.. ? Not a chance.

We need to leave that damn country ASAP

[Kevin]

Can you show me statistics where the Iraqis have gotten together and said they hate us as a whole?

I am not talking about the fringe interests groups that have their own selfish wants and desires for Iraq and want the US out so they can do it. I am talking about the actual PEOPLE.

Because from ALL the people I have talked to that has done a few tours of service down there say the opposite. That MOST of the Iraqi people LOVE seeing soldiers in thier areas. Even brings them baked goods etc.

While I am sure the Iraqi's would like to see us gone soon, I am not sure many of them know what would really happen if we took up and left today.

[ebuddy]

Meh.
I wish we'd all drive better.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yco1deXOzN8

Could you imagine just driving in your own neighborhood and some pompous military occupiers drive like madmen bumping into your car. Are these punks going to get a ticket for aggressive driving, going on the wrong side of the road.. etc.. ? Not a chance.

We need to leave that damn country ASAP

You don't have a clue. Can't you hear their horn constantly honking. Their on an emergency run. Iraq doesn't have any pull over when you see flashing lights and siren laws. The only laws are get out of the way of military vehicles when their horn and headlights are flashing. The humvee didn't slam them off the road. All they did was gently tap the rear bumper. Didn't even scratch the paint.

Your solution would be to leave so that all those people in those cars would be murdered by the insurgents within 3 months. A car ain't going to do them any good after their dead.

[Buckaroo]

Now don't get me wrong, I want us out of there also, now if possible, but I don't see any way we can just up and leave overnight. We need to try something different, and maybe the new plan will work.

[Sub]

Or maybe electing a new president will.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Sub 

Or maybe electing a new president will.

I'd love to know how this would help.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I'd love to know how this would help.

Well, it would put someone with a different perspective in charge. By pretty much all accounts Bush is very closed to ideas that run counter to his own. Perhaps our next president will turn out to be the person who has the idea we need to win in Iraq but whom was shut out of the process by the current administration.

[Kevin]

Hey I don't care WHO does it. I just don't think we need to "pull out and go home"

It was funny Edwards was on this morning on some morning show. And he was basically saying that.

The interviewer said that the top people in the know about such a thing has claimed it would be a catastrophe if we pulled out now.

Edwards THEN spun it to something like "Well it will be in small steps, etc" and the interviewer claimed that even then these experts are claiming that it would be a total failure.

You could see Edward's face turn bright red, and you could tell he didn't really think he stance through that well. He was just repeating the same "bring em home rah rah" mantra he was TOLD to repeat. He was just being a shill, and the reporter KNEW IT.

After all it IS election time. The Dems hope to win the election with their "We are gonna bring em home" knowing that once they get in there they will "Stay for the better of humanity" or some such spin.

[tie]

It is election time?

I agree with you Kevin that there are better things to do than pulling out immediately. However, Bush has shown complete incompetence, dishonesty, and an inability to change the course regardless of the facts on the ground. He does all this while Cheney calls anyone who disagrees a traitor.

I don't think it is possible for this administration to succeed. Therefore, rather than wait two years for a competent administration to come into power, as Iraq continues to deteriorate and costs hundreds of billions a year, I think our best strategy is to leave immediately.

[Warren Pease]

The video shows a good example of tactical vs. strategic need. From a tactical standpoint (getting from Point A to Point B ASAP), they did a great job. From a strategic standpoint, they lose points with the average Iraqi people, the ones the US is there to protect, and the ones who may be/come part of some militia. But I'm sure though, at this point, most Iraqi's wouldn't be suprised by this behaviour.

At least they're better than these guys:
YouTube - US soldiers taunt Iraqi kids with water

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by tie 

It is election time?

I agree with you Kevin that there are better things to do than pulling out immediately. However, Bush has shown complete incompetence, dishonesty, and an inability to change the course regardless of the facts on the ground. He does all this while Cheney calls anyone who disagrees a traitor.

I would say that was an exaggeration.

I don't think it is possible for this administration to succeed. Therefore, rather than wait two years for a competent administration to come into power, as Iraq continues to deteriorate and costs hundreds of billions a year, I think our best strategy is to leave immediately.

Hyperbole. Not only that you need to redo your math.

I believe you are just repeating the same things you have read. It all sounds the same.

NONE of it having any relevance to reality or common sense.

It's just what I was speaking about with Edwards above.

Also, just because you post in a internet topic that the Iraqis hate us, doesn't mean it's true.

[macintologist]

Why should we care what happens to that country when we pull out immediately? Yes we did create a mess there but we're just making it worse and worse for EVERYBODY the longer we stay.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Why should we care what happens to that country when we pull out immediately? Yes we did create a mess there but we're just making it worse and worse for EVERYBODY the longer we stay.

Sorry to say, you are so wrong. The government would fall in less than 2 months after we left. Maybe not even that long. Then we would end up with a huge gigantic terroist training camp killing every single Iraqi citizen. It would be a total humanitarian disaster.

Damn, and now I've talked myself out of wishing our guys could come home right away.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

Sorry to say, you are so wrong. The government would fall in less than 2 months after we left. Maybe not even that long. Then we would end up with a huge gigantic terroist training camp killing every single Iraqi citizen. It would be a total humanitarian disaster.

Damn, and now I've talked myself out of wishing our guys could come home right away.

First of all you're speculating. I mean we're talking about a country with a billion dollar oil industry. Things straighten out when so much money is at stake.

Second, even if you're right, it still makes it none of our business. The world is not ours to police.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Warren Pease 

At least they're better than these guys:
YouTube - US soldiers taunt Iraqi kids with water

Quote from DarrylRevok in the comments section of that link...

I'm American, but I would sleep better knowing that the "soldiers" involved in this incident were killed.

From monsterod...

If only these idiots were the only ones hitting IEDs

Was this mean? Yeah, you could say that. However, I doubt the kids are thirsting to death. I really doubt that the area is without water.

Anyways, the attitude of some of the people that responded on YouTube is why we may never win another war. They're so quick to jump on the soldier-hating bandwagon, even going as far as suggesting they should die for this. Let that sink in a bit.

I'm not saying they conducted themselves properly, but the soldiers certainly don't deserve to die.

[macintologist]

The soldiers don't deserve to die, but the military should definitely leave because they don't belong there.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

The soldiers don't deserve to die, but the military should definitely leave because they don't belong there.

That's a sensible statement, but how many despicable people are out there who actually are wishing death on our troops?

There's no way to get a figure on that, but YouTube in particular has put some pretty amazing opinions on display (most of them communicated through poor grammar). I want to know if many people feel that way. If it's in the millions, then we have a problem.

[macintologist]

Who cares if they are wishing death on our troops or not? Let's get them out of there so they aren't given such a heavy burden of mediating a violent civil war, and as a little side bonus, this country gets to keep ~150 billion dollars every year.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Why should we care what happens to that country when we pull out immediately? Yes we did create a mess there but we're just making it worse and worse for EVERYBODY the longer we stay.

Funny, those in charge of such thing, that are in the know say an EVEN BIGGER MESS would be created if we leave.

They go against all the hyperbole being posted here as fact.

I guess they need to come on the MacNN forums and get schooled by macitologists. I guess all those IRaqis giving soldiers baked goods need to stop. Macintologists said they hate us.

This thread is full of macintologist "facts" that are not.

[Sky Captain]

Good lord.
I like how many here don't know WHY the drivers move after getting nudged.
Or why the truck nudged the cars.

The citizens are required to clear the way for all military vehicles. Periiod.
Get out of the war or get moved.
Why?
Because EVERY car is potentially filled with insurgents waiting to pin in a truck and attack it.
The insurgents need to leave. Now.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Anyways, the attitude of some of the people that responded on YouTube is why we may never win another war.

Let's see, we have...

Spurious claims of seeking WMD
Not enough troops
Failing to get international support
Not enough troops
Abu Ghirab
Not enough troops
De-Baathification of the government
Not enough troops
Firing the Iraqi army Wholesale
and, not enough troops.

But it's ta n00bs h00 psot on teh intarwebs fault!!!!1!

[Mark Larr]

Too bad it wasn't a tank.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

You don't have a clue. Can't you hear their horn constantly honking. Their on an emergency run. Iraq doesn't have any pull over when you see flashing lights and siren laws. The only laws are get out of the way of military vehicles when their horn and headlights are flashing. The humvee didn't slam them off the road. All they did was gently tap the rear bumper. Didn't even scratch the paint.

Your solution would be to leave so that all those people in those cars would be murdered by the insurgents within 3 months. A car ain't going to do them any good after their dead.

Is it perhaps naive to trust Bush in his proclaiming the presence of evil and vile terrorist insurgents that kill innocent civilians, as opposed to there being different groups (I forget the fancier word for this) of Iraqis at war with each other?

We should not take sides by supporting any one group, just as we should not support Israel. These are their battles, their conflicts. They need their own solutions and need to settle their own affairs, at this point the military can only treat symptoms of the underlying problem. I'm not convinced that our presence there isn't simply making matters worse.

This smacks of "we broke it, you clean it up", and this is very unfortunate, but the reality is that we can't clean it up militarily, and we can't just hand them a non-military solution.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Good lord.
I like how many here don't know WHY the drivers move after getting nudged.
Or why the truck nudged the cars.

The citizens are required to clear the way for all military vehicles. Periiod.
Get out of the war or get moved.
Why?
Because EVERY car is potentially filled with insurgents waiting to pin in a truck and attack it.
The insurgents need to leave. Now.

Which faction are the insurgents a part of? Is it really this one-sided, or like in Israel and Palestine, are all parties responsible for perpetuating this conflict?

[Sky Captain]

Wow. It's Bush's fault the factions finally get to slaughter each other on a wholesale basis.
I say let them have at it. Let's leave.

*edit for post after mine*

Who knows. They're from everywhere.
When you have a chance for bloodthirsty murders to go hog wild, they come from everywhere.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Wow. It's Bush's fault the factions finally get to slaughter each other on a wholesale basis.
I say let them have at it. Let's leave.

*edit for post after mine*

Who knows. They're from everywhere.
When you have a chance for bloodthirsty murders to go hog wild, they come from everywhere.

The Shiias, Sunnis, Kurds exist in other countries too, I believe. It is very easy to label one as blood thirsty terrorists, but I suspect that more than one group carries some blame. I have seen little evidence that we actually understand the root of the problem, nor are we particularly well equipped at being their diplomatic mediator after having invading them and all...

I always get these factions confused, mostly from my sloppy reading and mental internalization of the problem, I guess, but perhaps also because the media hasn't really educated us to these issues. I get the sense that most Americans just see Iraqis as all the same, and think of them as your generic terrorist.

[Sky Captain]

No we see the Iraqis as seperate from the terrorists and jihdis.
It's pretty much common knowledge here that the insurgents are from the surrounding countries.
Even Iran.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

No we see the Iraqis as seperate from the terrorists and jihdis.
It's pretty much common knowledge here that the insurgents are from the surrounding countries.
Even Iran.

And what faction are the insurgents a part of?

Comon, they must have a reason for doing what they are doing. I'm sick of having this explained by simply labeling them as evil and hating freedom. Their actions are clearly unacceptable, but we are too far along to think this simplistically about the situation.

[Sky Captain]

These factions are now targeting civillians.
This makes them simplistic and bloodthirsty. Nothing more.
To try and "understand" them, gives validity to their actions.
I'll be no part of it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

These factions are now targeting civillians.
This makes them simplistic and bloodthirsty. Nothing more.
To try and "understand" them, gives validity to their actions.
I'll be no part of it.

What factions are these insurgents a part of? Who are they attacking? Why? What is the underlying cause of these civil conflicts? What blame and justification do each of these factions carry? How would they explain their cause and their justifications?

It's great to want to protect civilians, but this simply buys us time, nothing more.

[Sky Captain]

Pascification=leaving the civillians to something worse than Saddam.
A totolitarian Islamic state.
Hell, it might be best id Iran absorbed Iraq.
If Amajamadingdong didn't slaughter them all...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Pascification=leaving the civillians to something worse than Saddam.
A totolitarian Islamic state.
Hell, it might be best id Iran absorbed Iraq.
If Amajamadingdong didn't slaughter them all...

So we should stay put until people who want to dominate and lead Iraq by force all of a sudden get sick of this notion and decide they don't want this after all?

[Mark Larr]

Why don't you give them flowers and it'll be all ok then.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Mark Larr 

Why don't you give them flowers and it'll be all ok then.

Was I suggesting that?

It sounds like what we are doing now is forcing a sort of restraining order on these warring factions. We can't stay there forever, so either we work on solving the problem, or in finding a way to permanently separate the involved parties in a way that is satisfying to both parties.

What other solutions are there?

[Sky Captain]

I've about come to the opinion, no matter what we do, it won't be the "right thing".
Install a government of the people, the people will only destroy it.

In 1990 we were critisized for not taking out Bagdad completely.
And allowing Saddam to surpress the uprising.
Now we hand the Iraqi people their country on a silver platter and what happens?
They don't have the balls to fight for it and remove the insurgents.

Damned if you do damned if you don't.


But at the moment I'm of the opinion of continuing to remove insurgent recruits. By the thousands.
The MSM doesn't report THEIR body counts.
It's time to break the moral of the factions. IF we are to stay there.

[Mark Larr]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It sounds like what we are doing now is forcing a sort of restraining order on these warring factions. We can't stay there forever, so either we work on solving the problem, or in finding a way to permanently separate the involved parties in a way that is satisfying to both parties.

What other solutions are there?

You have offered none.

I can guarantee mine will work. It worked in Japan.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

But at the moment I'm of the opinion of continuing to remove insurgent recruits. By the thousands.
The MSM doesn't report THEIR body counts.
It's time to break the moral of the factions. IF we are to stay there.

That sounds just like this so-called war on terrorism. The problem is, the insurgents don't have a centralized location, they can't be easily identified. How would you do this?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Mark Larr 

You have offered none.

I can guarantee mine will work. It worked in Japan.

Dropping the bomb on them seems like a last resort. Shouldn't we at least attempt to understand this conflict as best as we can before reaching this conclusion?

[Warren Pease]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That sounds just like this so-called war on terrorism. The problem is, the insurgents don't have a centralized location, they can't be easily identified. How would you do this?

Genocide?

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That sounds just like this so-called war on terrorism. The problem is, the insurgents don't have a centralized location, they can't be easily identified. How would you do this?

Hang their bodies from bridges. Leave them to rot for all to see.(we do kill many BTW)
Take no prisioners. Public executions.
Saddam had this part right. He kept them at bay this way.
Get tough. So far we've been pussyfooting around.
You have no idea what we did in GW1. No idea.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Hang their bodies from bridges. Leave them to rot for all to see.(we do kill many BTW)
Take no prisioners. Public executions.
Saddam had this part right. He kept them at bay this way.
Get tough. So far we've been pussyfooting around.
You have no idea what we did in GW1. No idea.

Maybe, but we went into this thinking of ourselves as liberators. If we did something like that, it would smack of imperialism. Would this quell or grow the insurgence?

[Warren Pease]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Saddam had this part right. He kept them at bay this way.

So you disagree with Bush's assertion that we take out Saddam based solely on him being a bad person?

[Sky Captain]

I don't think we truly understood how Saddam had to control his country.
The media painted Saddam as bad.

[Warren Pease]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

I don't think we truly understood how Saddam had to control his country.
The media painted Saddam as bad.

Governing a country is hard work, but you think Saddam tactics were overstated by your MSM?

[Sky Captain]

Not just America's. But the worlds.
Sensationalism sells.
Who's to say the prisons weren't filled with these "insurgents".
Or the desert sands weren't littered with their bodies?
We may have actually had Saddam all wrong.

[tie]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I would say that was an exaggeration.

Hyperbole. Not only that you need to redo your math.

NONE of it having any relevance to reality or common sense.

It was not exaggeration, nor was it hyperbole, and my math is correct.

Also, just because you post in a internet topic that the Iraqis hate us, doesn't mean it's true.

I didn't post that the Iraqis hate us.

Keep an eye out for those WMD, Kevin. Any day now, we'll find those mobile bioweapon factories. Then won't the Democrats take a hit!