[cenutrio]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,11021-10043,00.html

It doesn't seem to be posted yet.

[moodymonster]

I don't want to jump on the tigger happy yank bandwagon but...

There does seem to be alot of doubt about the targets on the part of the pilots before engaging.

They keep saying that the vehicles have orange panels on them, identifying them as friendly. They could be seen to be talking themselves into believing they're orange rockets.

Don't appear to wait for the artilley to be fired to identify the targets

Even when they've attacked once and aren't sure what the target is, they attack again.

They seem to confuse small tanks for trucks.

It could seem that they were trying to explain the picture they saw in terms of what the controller was telling them.

Judging by their reaction, ie someone's going to jail for this. Could be construed to mean they didn't follow SOP. I wouldn't have thought the say so of the controller, combined with the doubt the pilots had about the targets would be sufficient justification to attack.

On the flip side, you need pilots who are going to attack when needed and not playing on the cautious side all the time.

It seems like the pilots involved didn't follow SOP, and didn't have very good recognition.

[Sky Captain]

From the transcript, they asked if friendlies were in the area.
Just damn. Damn damn damn.



Here's the transcript.

[moodymonster]

It is tragic, and not just the soldiers on the ground and their families. But for the pilots too.

Also has to be balanced with all the times US planes (and others) operate and don't make mistakes. I've seen footage of British soldiers calling in A10 airstrikes nearly on top of their positions, they would only do that if they extreme confidence in the abilities of the US pilots.

[OreoCookie]

Where did they get the transcript from?

[moodymonster]

the video:

The Sun Online - Video: Exclusives, interviews and shoots from The Sun online

[Nivag]

Well it looks they were short of fuel, wanted to shoot something, couldn't wait to confirm the targets and just let rip. very very sad.

how can you go from orange panels to orange rockets?

[moodymonster]

surprisingly, not, the coroner involved has lost his job.
BBC NEWS | England | Oxfordshire | Iraq inquest coroner loses job

He's the same one who said (not related to the A10 incident):

To send soldiers into a combat zone without the appropriate basic equipment is, in my view, unforgivable and inexcusable and represents a breach of trust that the soldiers have in those in government

Independent Online Edition > UK Politics

Obviously the gov't don't want opposition.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by Nivag 

Well it looks they were short of fuel, wanted to shoot something, couldn't wait to confirm the targets and just let rip. very very sad.

how can you go from orange panels to orange rockets?

I don't agree. Saying they just wanted to 'shoot something' is highly speculative. Visual ID from altitude is not easy and this is a war-time situation. It is not as though this will be their only chance at "glory". This was a FUBAR accident.

FF is a terrible fact of warfare and is more common than most would think.

This was a horrible tragedy for all involved.

Anyone injecting malice into this is malicious on his own (not directed at any previous post).

I will say that I hope releasing this provides some closure for the families of the killed soldier. I think it reveals that, while a sad event, was not due to complete incompetence.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Nivag 

Well it looks they were short of fuel, wanted to shoot something, couldn't wait to confirm the targets and just let rip. very very sad.

how can you go from orange panels to orange rockets?

Unfortunately the orange panels appeared to be rocket tips fro the air.
Believe me, everything appeard differently from the air and over 200 knots.
If it were orange rocket tips, the A-10's may have been the oned smoldering in the desert. 4 helicopters have been downed by new rockets.
And all the pilots are on edge.

And they were told twice there were no friendlies.
A pilot relies on reliable tactial informaion on troop movements.
I hope this caravan didn't move out without orders and get somewhere they weren't supposed to be.

Tragic tragic tragic....

[Nivag]

I don't think it was primarily the pilots fault in this, as is mentioned, spotting anything at speed is very hard, added with the threat of being shot at doesn't help.
From what i've read it says the pilots haven't had any training on what the other friendlies vehicles look like and their controller should of got actual grid references on where these targets were. Which they only did after the fired.

The thing that really annoyed me yesterday was the US government denied that there was any video of this event. Hopefully this will give some closure to the families involved.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by Nivag 

The thing that really annoyed me yesterday was the US government denied that there was any video of this event. Hopefully this will give some closure to the families involved.

I thought they had played the 'classified card' and not that it didn't exist… which I guess is debatable. General Monday Morning QB'ing is not something any military needs on the whole… it's a messy job.

However, if the denied its outright existence, that was stupid and wrong.

[OreoCookie]

This doesn't really surprise me nor do I find it shocking. All of the Vietnam vets I've met who have been injured have been injured by friendly fire. Surely, I'm not claiming it's representative of everyone who has served there, but it's war and this happens. It's very tragic, but it's nothing unusual and IMHO doesn't imply that the American military isn't well-prepared or anything.

That said, I think the pilot should be reprimanded in the same way I have to take responsibility for a car crash for instance.

[:dragonflypro:]

Every one keep in mind this was in 2003.

[Macrobat]

Yeah, the fact that NO A-10s have even been deployed currently seems to have escaped the majority.

[moodymonster]

Originally Posted by Macrobat 

Yeah, the fact that NO A-10s have even been deployed currently seems to have escaped the majority.

what?

I'm pretty certain they're in Afghanistan + they're being upgraded.

[Andrewjc]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Unfortunately the orange panels appeared to be rocket tips fro the air.
Believe me, everything appeard differently from the air and over 200 knots.
If it were orange rocket tips, the A-10's may have been the oned smoldering in the desert. 4 helicopters have been downed by new rockets.
And all the pilots are on edge.

And they were told twice there were no friendlies.
A pilot relies on reliable tactial informaion on troop movements.
I hope this caravan didn't move out without orders and get somewhere they weren't supposed to be.

Tragic tragic tragic....

Why on earth would the pilots think that Iraqi rockets would be orange? Why would any army paint its rockets orange, rather than some drab camouflage colour? Crazy.

[faragbre967]

Originally Posted by Andrewjc 

Why on earth would the pilots think that Iraqi rockets would be orange? Why would any army paint its rockets orange, rather than some drab camouflage colour? Crazy.

I don't know why they do it, but 30 seconds of Google shows missile tips can be a variety of colors. These happen to be Russian anti-aircraft missiles, the kind those A-10 pilots would be worried about.