[Doofy]

WorldNetDaily: 3rd Reich homeschool prohibition defended

Homeschooling creates "parallel societies" that must be stamped out, according to the German government's defense of its 3rd Reich homeschooling prohibition being used now to justify the imprisonment of a 15-year-old student, Melissa Busekros, whose case is being taken to appeal.

In a response published on a blog to a letter expressing concern about Melissa's case, Wolfgang Drautz, consul general of the Federal Republic of Germany, said that "the public has a legitimate interest in countering the rise of parallel societies that are based on religion or motivated by different world views and in integrating minorities into the population as a whole.

"If we are to achieve integration, not only must the majority of the population prevent the ostracization of religious minorities or minorities with different world views, but minorities must also remain open and engage in dialogue with those who think differently or share different beliefs," he said.

The case involves the schoolgirl who had fallen behind in math and Latin, and was being tutored at home. When school officials in Germany, where homeschooling has been illegal since Adolph Hitler decided he wanted to control the educating of all children, discovered that fact, she was expelled. School officials then took her to court, obtaining a court order requiring she be committed to a psychiatric ward because of her "school phobia."

She's since been put in a foster home, and has been allowed, under court supervision, to visit briefly with her parents, although they still are not permitted to know where she actually is staying.

...

That court opinion had offered a compromise that would have allowed the girl to return home – with ongoing state-enforced psychiatric supervision – and the family was willing to accept the compromise. "But the Youth Welfare Services and the attorney appointed by the State to represent Melissa refused," Thornton told WND.

He also said now, "there is talk of having the parents tested. They were willing to go through the psychiatric test even though they are concerned that those tests could be used to completely break their family."

"Right now the parents do not know where Melissa is. They met with Melissa for an hour late last week in a government building near where she is being kept. They do not [know] the family who is keeping her, but feel that this situation is better than the psychiatric hospital where Melissa was around a number of suicidal young people and a lot of Goths.

WTF?
I thought we were the mental cases of Europe.
Are you guys just naturally inclined towards fascism or what?

Someone please tell me that WorldNetDaily is embellishing the actual story somewhat.

[Dakar²]

The impression I keep getting is that the Germans think they're all potential Hitlers, and don't want to let it happen again.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

The impression I keep getting is that the Germans think they're all potential Hitlers, and don't want to let it happen again.

Yes, and in attempting to prevent themselves from going that way they end up that way anyways.

[Dakar²]

Nah, worst case scenario is civil war.

[osiris]

That story is unbelievable. If it's true, then Germany still has some serious issues.

[BRussell]

I'll be living in Germany next year, and I've been looking into school issues. We had discussed home-schooling as a possibility, because the English schools there tend to be private and expensive, and we weren't sure if we wanted our kids going to German schools. But a German friend of ours said "you can't home school in Germany." They'll probably go to German schools anyway, but I was surprised that it's against the law.

[TETENAL]

Compulsory education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Canada, compulsory education is set for ages 6 through 16. In Finland, it starts at the age of 7 (+/- 1 negotiable), and ends after graduation from comprehensive school at the age of 16, or at last after ten school years. In the United States, compulsory education is set for ages 6 through 15. [2]. In Scotland compulsory education begins between 4 and a half and 5 and a half; it extends until the age of 16.

I tell you what is wrong with Germany if you tell me what the difference is to other countries. And find me an article that can spell Hitler correctly if you want to be taken seriously.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Compulsory education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I tell you what is wrong with Germany if you tell me what the difference is to other countries. And find me an article that can spell Hitler correctly if you want to be taken seriously.

But isn't the issue home schooling, not compulsory education?

[voodoo]

I do not understand Germans and Italians. They are like aliens to me. I generally dislike them and in many cases, personally loathe them.

V

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education]I tell you what is wrong with Germany if you tell me what the difference is to other countries.

Well, other countries aren't trying to make up for gassing 6 million Jews. So there's a difference. Other countries let you mow your lawn on a Sunday. There's another difference.

Really... ...what's going on that your government feels the need to put a kid in a psych ward simply because she's having a few extra lessons at home?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Compulsory education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I tell you what is wrong with Germany if you tell me what the difference is to other countries. And find me an article that can spell Hitler correctly if you want to be taken seriously.

Nürnberger Nachrichten - Lokalmeldungen - Nürnberg
kreuz.net – „Notfalls durch Gewaltanwendung“
kreuz.net – Der Vater meldet sich zu Wort
Melissa Busekros - Menschenrechtsverletzungen durch das Erlanger Jugendamt

Go ahead now, but do keep in mind that you're the one who's misunderstood "home schooling" for "compulsory education".

I'm not entirely sure what to make of all this, but it certainly doesn't seem like a Good Thingâ„¢, nor in the interests of the girl in question.

Spiegel Online and Tagesschau.de had nothing on this case, btw, so the Nürnberger Nachrichten and Kreuz.net (catholic news service) are the best you're going to get at the moment.

English op-ed from a paper capable of spelling "Adolf Hitler" correctly: 2007 German horror tale - Editorials/Op-Ed - The Washington Times, America's Newspaper

[TETENAL]

Sounds like an overzealous youth office.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

WorldNetDaily: 3rd Reich homeschool prohibition defended



WTF?
I thought we were the mental cases of Europe.
Are you guys just naturally inclined towards fascism or what?
Someone please tell me that WorldNetDaily is embellishing the actual story somewhat.

Yaaaaaawn...
Who the fokk would give something about that articles IF IT WOULDN'T CONTAIN THE WORDS ADOLF OR DRITTES REICH IN IT? Where is the relevance for today?????

Gah.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Yaaaaaawn...
Who the fokk would give something about that articles IF IT WOULDN'T CONTAIN THE WORDS ADOLF OR DRITTES REICH IN IT?

Ermmm... ...the folks watching your EU presidency to make sure you don't do anything too whacky? You know, like trying to ban holocaust denial in all 27 countries and thus remove freedom of speech. Or trying to tell other EU countries what to teach in their schools.

You're tried both already this year.

[analogika]

Powerbook, you're right.

But do read through the links I posted.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Ermmm... ...the folks watching your EU presidency to make sure you don't do anything too whacky? You know, like trying to ban holocaust denial in all 27 countries and thus remove freedom of speech. Or trying to tell other EU countries what to teach in their schools.

You're tried both already this year.

Remove freedom of speech??? When I have the chance not to listen to the lowest neo-nazi scum and their disgusting history re-fabrication I take this over the "right" to spout such lies every day.
I don't even get your point: As englishman you're naturally afraid of the strong bad nationalist Germans (duh). So you should cheer every effort of the German administration to weaken those people. Part of which is to eliminate this specific slander about other races and people. You can't have it both ways.
The other point is, Germany has not only the right but the obligation to put your kids in school at least for nine years. That's considered the basic education for every kid.

Regards
PB.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Remove freedom of speech???

Yes, remove freedom of speech. Germans are pathetic for making laws against saying things.

V

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Yes, remove freedom of speech. Germans are pathetic for making laws against saying things.

V

Wow reeeelly? I never noticed.
I bet you couldn't name three laws against "saying things". The law against racial slander is a very rare exemption.
What do you like better: A country like Germany where everyone knows you will get problems if you speak out about those primate negros, lazy turks and Jesus-murdering Jews? Or a country like America where you have the right to say stuff like that and constantly one half of the population is suing the other half for saying it?

Regards
PB.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Powerbook, you're right.

But do read through the links I posted.

Yes... Like TETENAL said, I bet some minor official saw his big chance coming.

PB.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Or a country like America where you have the right to say stuff like that and constantly one half of the population is suing the other half for saying it?

Regards
PB.

Or a country like um... all countries in Europe? -- excepting other fascists like Austria.

V

[analogika]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Or a country like um... all countries in Europe? -- excepting other fascists like Austria.

V

So it's legal to shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre in Iceland? And Spain? Are you sure?

Or are you just fascists like the rest of us?

We too draw the line at where people get hurt. We just have a little more experience in what it takes to get people hurt.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

As englishman you're naturally afraid of the strong bad nationalist Germans (duh).

No, I don't think so.

The point is: You're trying so hard to not become a nazi state again that you're actually showing all the symptoms of becoming one. You will become the thing you hate.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by analogika 

So it's legal to shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre in Iceland? And Spain? Are you sure?

Or are you just fascists like the rest of us?

We too draw the line at where people get hurt. We just have a little more experience in what it takes to get people hurt.

Meh, typical of Germans to think the government can decide for you what can 'hurt'. As it is I know of no legislation against shouting fire. It would be judged on case to case basis whether this would lead to injury or cause damage. The shouting itself can and should never be illegal.

So many things *can* hurt when said, but freedom of speech is more important than potential damage. If what you say damages, you will pay. But not just because you said something. Whatever it may be.

That's fascism. Plain and simple. Taking responsibility for what you say is far from being forbidden to speak. Sheesh.

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No, I don't think so.

The point is: You're trying so hard to not become a nazi state again that you're actually showing all the symptoms of becoming one. You will become the thing you hate.

Like in Nazi Germany and all fascist states, there is no freedom of speech in current Germany. Indeed they are not far from becoming the thing they hate, in that sense. Be careful Germans.. this is one of the reasons I just can't understand Germans.

With freedom comes eternal vigilance. And responsibility. Freedom of speech is probably the most fundamental freedom of democracy.

It is sad to see that after all this time, Germany does not 'get' it.

V

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Someone please tell me that WorldNetDaily is embellishing the actual story somewhat.

Gee, do you really think that might be the case? WND embellishing stories, writing headlines that get to the gullible? Nah!

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

So many things *can* hurt when said, but freedom of speech is more important than potential damage. If what you say damages, you will pay. But not just because you said something. Whatever it may be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

In Iceland, the hate speech law is not confined to inciting hatred, as one can see from Article 233 a. in the Icelandic Criminal Code, but includes simply expressing such hatred publicly:
"Anyone who in a ridiculing, slanderous, insulting, threatening or any other manner publicly assaults a person or a group of people on the basis of their nationality, skin colour, race, religion or sexual orientation, shall be fined or jailed for up to 2 years." (The word "assault" in this context does not refer to physical violence, only to expressions of hatred.)

Oh no! Fascism in Iceland!

[subego]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

What do you like better: A country like Germany where everyone knows you will get problems if you speak out about those primate negros, lazy turks and Jesus-murdering Jews? Or a country like America where you have the right to say stuff like that and constantly one half of the population is suing the other half for saying it?

The latter. By a mile.

Good defense of the thought police though. Very Prussian.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

[url]Oh no! Fascism in Iceland!

Yeah, you have to be:

A) Sued by someone for this

B) Found guilty

That is to say, a case by case judgement. No law against speaking of a specific event and/or having a specific opinion of it. As I said, you can speak, but you may have to take responsibility of it.

That you said a certain thing does not mean automatic jailtime or fine. Only if someone sues, and then only if found guilty by a court of law.

You quote the 233rd article of the penal code in Iceland. Then take a look at the 73rd article of the constitution, where it explicitly says:

Hver maður á rétt á að láta í ljós hugsanir sínar, en ábyrgjast verður hann þær fyrir dómi. Ritskoðun og aðrar sambærilegar tálmanir á tjáningarfrelsi má aldrei í lög leiða.

Every person has the right to express his thought, but must take responsibility for them in court. Censoring and other similar restrictions of the freedom of expression can never be put in law.

If you wanted to see fascism in Iceland, this is not your best example. They have quite good freedom of speech. There are other things that are more suspect.

[Powerbook]

The following are a couple of examples from California cases; note the law may vary from state to state. Libelous (when false):
* Charging someone with being a communist (in 1959)
* Calling an attorney a "crook"
* Describing a woman as a call girl
* Accusing a minister of unethical conduct
* Accusing a father of violating the confidence of son

(...)

The Guide purported to
be an authoritative *858 interpretation of the Policy and provided examples
of sanctionable conduct. These included:
A flyer containing racist threats distributed in a residence hall.
Racist graffiti written on the door of an Asian student's study carrel.
A black student is confronted and racially insulted by two white students in a cafeteria.
Male students leave pornographic pictures and jokes on the desk of a female
graduate student.
Two men demand that their roommate in the residence hall move out and be tested for AIDS.
In addition, the Guide contained a separate section entitled "You are a harasser when ..." which contains the following examples of discriminatory conduct:
You exclude someone from a study group because that person is of a different race, sex, or ethnic origin than you are.
You display a confederate flag on the door of your room in the residence hall.
You make obscene telephone calls or send racist notes or computer messages.
You comment in a derogatory way about a particular person or group's physical appearance or sexual orientation, or their cultural origins, or religious beliefs.

(...)

Flag preservation act
Under that provision, an individual "commit(ted) an offense if he intentionally or knowingly desecrates a state or national flag," ibid.; the statute defined "desecrate" to "mean() deface, damage, or otherwise physically mistreat in any way that the actor knows will seriously offend one or more persons likely to observe or discover his action,...


-> OMG!!! Fascism in the United States! What can we do!!

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by subego 

The latter. By a mile.
Good defense of the thought police though. Very Prussian.

You just don't get it, do you? These laws have nothing to do with what you think or say in private. You can still join any radicals meeting and hate foreigners as long as no bystanders have to endure this,
These laws protect the public.

PB.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Or a country like um... all countries in Europe? -- excepting other fascists like Austria.

V

My, you are an idiot. Whole countries of fascists now??? Check this:

---
Persona non grata
Irving as he was deported from Canada in 1992

By the late 1980s, Irving was barred from entering Austria. In the early 1990s, a German court found him guilty of Holocaust denial under the Auschwitzlüge section of the law against Volksverhetzung (a failed appeal by Irving would see the fine rise from 7000 DM to 30000 DM), and he was subsequently barred from entering Germany. Other governments followed suit. In 1992, he was barred from South Africa and Canada, where he was arrested in November 1992 and deported back to the United Kingdom. In an administrative hearing surrounding those events he was found by the hearing office to have engaged in a "total fabrication" in telling a story of an exit from and return to Canada which would have, for technical reasons, made the original deportation order invalid. He was also barred from entering Australia in 1992, a ban he made four unsuccessful legal attempts to overturn.

On April 27, 1993 Irving was ordered to attend court to be examined on charges relating to the Loi Gayssot in France. The law, however, does not permit extradition and Irving simply refused to travel to France.
(...)
Early in September 2004, Michael Cullen, the deputy prime minister of New Zealand, announced that Irving would not be permitted to visit the country, where he had been invited by the National Press Club to give a series of lectures under the heading "The Problems of Writing about World War II in a Free Society". The National Press Club defended its invitation of Irving, saying that it amounted not to an endorsement of his views, but rather an opportunity to question him. The intended visit provoked an outcry among Jewish groups, who were not appeased by Irving's promise not to speak about the Holocaust.

Irving had visited New Zealand twice before in the 1980s. His intended 2004 visit was refused on the grounds that he had been convicted of offences by a German court, and that at various times had been deported from, and/or refused entry to, Canada, the United States, Italy, and South Africa. "Mr. Irving is not permitted to enter New Zealand under the Immigration Act because people who have been deported from another country are refused entry," government spokeswoman Katherine O'Sullivan had told The Press earlier. Irving rejected the ban and attempted to board a Qantas flight for New Zealand from Los Angeles on 17 September 2004. He was not allowed on board. "As far as I'm concerned, the legal battle now begins," he was quoted as saying. His New Zealand-based lawyer is still waiting on instructions on how to proceed.[citation needed]
---

Fascists everywhere!!!

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No, I don't think so.
The point is: You're trying so hard to not become a nazi state again that you're actually showing all the symptoms of becoming one. You will become the thing you hate.

Errr right. I'll ask my jewish grandfather if has packed his bags already.

Apple. Going out of business since 1984.
Germany. Going out of democracy since 1945.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

You just don't get it, do you? These laws have nothing to do with what you think or say in private. You can still join any radicals meeting and hate foreigners as long as no bystanders have to endure this,
These laws protect the public.

PB.

You think the public needs protection from such things? Amazing.

[voodoo]

You don't get it, PB. No wonder. You're German!

You don't know individuality, you emulate it. Much like aliens trying to assimilate.

V

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Yeah, you have to be:

A) Sued by someone for this
B) Found guilty

If you wanted to see fascism in Iceland, this is not your best example.

I don't want to see fascism in Iceland. I want to expose you as the hypocrite you are when you call Germany fascist for having a law against hate speech and not Iceland which also has a law against hate speech.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

You just don't get it, do you? These laws have nothing to do with what you think or say in private. You can still join any radicals meeting and hate foreigners as long as no bystanders have to endure this.

The story that started this thread doesn't bear that out.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

I don't want to see fascism in Iceland. I want to expose you as the hypocrite you are when you call Germany fascist for having a law against hate speech and not Iceland which also has a law against hate speech.

No, Germany has a law agains a CERTAIN speech. Not just hate speech. You are pathetic for trying to cover up your past by forbidding people to talk about it. Even more pathetic for stemming the freedom of speech in such a surgical manner, giving an amazingly dangerous precidence.

If you people are fine with banning one specific thing, then anything is go.



V

[Doofy]

Wiki:

In Germany, Volksverhetzung (incitement of hatred against a minority) is a punishable offense under Section 130 of the Strafgesetzbuch (Germany's criminal code) and can lead to up to five years imprisonment. Volksverhetzung is punishable in Germany even if committed abroad and even if committed by non-German citizens, if only the incitement of hatred takes effect within German territory, e.g. the seditious sentiment was expressed in German writ or speech and made accessible in Germany

So, in other words, Germany reserves the right to prosecute any citizen of any other country for anything they write on the Internet which Germany doesn't like. Even if that person has never set foot in Germany.

Wow guys. It's almost like you think you won the war or something.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

You don't get it, PB. No wonder. You're German!

Yes. I'm German. My family though is Prussian-Jewish-Hungarian. Now what?

PB.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

You are pathetic for trying to cover up your past by forbidding people to talk about it.
V

ARE YOU ON DRUGS??????????????????????????
Germany is worldwide acknowledged as one of the few (?) ex-dictatorship countries that indeed faces his past! Every German kid has Holocaust, WW2, The Nazi party, etc etc. in history classes at least three times in his scholar life.
Maybe you mix us up with Spain and his Francisco Franco???

PB.

[analogika]

At least seven countries have laws against Holocaust denial. That, to my knowledge, is the only "CERTAIN speech" that is forbidden here, though I'd be very interested in hearing why this is fundamentally different from the fairly explicit wording of Iceland's "hate speech" law, quoted above...

Many more have laws against "hate speech". How this is defined is decided on a case-by-case basis - everywhere, including Germany and Iceland.

Nowhere does anybody have to be "sued" to be indicted on "hate speech" charges - INCLUDING Iceland. That's simply the wrong term: "Suing" is what happens in claims court, for damages.

In most any modern nation, if there is reasonable cause to assume that a crime is being or has been commited, state authorities - including police - HAVE TO INVESTIGATE, and, if they verify the accusation, MUST press charges. Somebody has to bring it to the attention of the authorities, of course - or they have to notice themselves. I would be VERY surprised if this were any different in Iceland, and I rather suspect that you, voodoo, are talking out of your ass.

[analogika]

Now, wasn't this thread about home-schooling and overzealous bureaucrat officials?

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Wiki:
So, in other words, Germany reserves the right to prosecute any citizen of any other country for anything they write on the Internet which Germany doesn't like. Even if that person has never set foot in Germany.

So in other words, certain scum is prosecuted everywhere where people recognize and stand up against that scum. You might want to check the country list above that has dealt with your english gem David Irving.

PB.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Now, wasn't this thread about home-schooling and overzealous bureaucrat officials?

No, it was actually about your government telling people how to think.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

So in other words, certain scum is prosecuted everywhere where people recognize and stand up against that scum.

Which bit of "Germany doesn't tell citizens of other countries what to do" are you not getting?

The best way of dealing with idiots is to let them say their piece then argue against them. Not come over all fascist and prosecute them for saying it in the first place.

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

You might want to check the country list above that has dealt with your english gem David Irving.

You might want to check what nationality the guy was who instituted the law under which the homeschooled girl in the OP was prosecuted.

And we could go on to talk about Canadian citizens being extradited to face charges in Germany because of what they've published in Canada, if you like.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No, it was actually about your government telling people how to think.

Well, that's what your sensationalist headline and anti-German attitude would like to make it.

Not that it has much to do with the case of Melissa Busekros.

Anyway, carry on mud-slinging if you wish. There was actually potential for interesting discussion in the actual subject, had not the 3rd-Reich reference in the very first line turned it into the usual anti-German OMGIT'SHAPUNINGAGAIN! paranoia.

I'll be following the case elsewhere.

[analogika]

P.S.: Please do follow Powerbook's suggestion and check up on the countries that have dealt with your Nazi countryman Irving. You may learn something.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika 

P.S.: Please do follow Powerbook's suggestion and check up on the countries that have dealt with your Nazi countryman Irving. You may learn something.

And you might learn something if you go look up "Ernst Zündel".

[analogika]

What about Zündel?

He was declared persona non grata in Canada, deemed a danger to Canada's national security, and extradited to Germany, where he was just sentenced to five years in jail.

And?

BTW, since holocaust denial is illegal in Canada as well (****ing fascists), his website is run by his wife from the USA.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Well, that's what your sensationalist headline and anti-German attitude would like to make it.

No, that's what it is. The fact that you can't see it says a lot about the pervasive, yet subtle, fascism happening in your country.

Oh, and I'm not anti-German. I'm anti-fascist.

Originally Posted by analogika 

Not that it has much to do with the case of Melissa Busekros.

It has *everything* to do with the case, since the legislation involved is being used to prevent anyone from "thinking differently". It's the same root. And by bending yourselves into something which you think will stop a repeat of the unpleasantness, you're actually turning yourselves into pretty much an exact replica of it. Much irony.