Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Is "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" Protected Speech? Supremes Will Decide!

Is "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" Protected Speech? Supremes Will Decide!
Thread Tools
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 06:33 PM
 
'Bong Hits 4 Jesus': Student Protest Goes to Supreme Court

Legal Experts Call Case Most Significant Student Free Speech Case Since the Height of Vietnam War



Joseph Frederick, left, 18, was suspended from his Alaska high school for displaying a controversial banner during a 2002 parade. Mary Beth Tinker was just 15 when the Supreme Court handed down the landmark Tinker v. Des Moines ruling in 1969 that said students "do not shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." She and two other students wore black armbands to school to protest the Vietnam War. (ACLU/Courtesy of the Frederick Family)
By SUSAN DONALDSON JAMES

March 15, 2007 — Joseph Frederick, a student rebel halfway through his senior year of high school, tried the patience of his principal when he displayed a drug-referenced sign reading "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" at a public parade in Juneau, Alaska, in 2002.

The 18-year-old had fashioned a 14-foot paper banner, which he held as the Olympic torch passed across the street from his high school on a national relay leading up to the 2002 winter games in Salt Lake City.

Frederick said he wanted to capture the attention of TV cameras — and the ire of his principal.

Principal Deborah Morse, who had previously disciplined Frederick for other acts of protest, confiscated the banner and suspended Frederick, sparking a feud that has gone all the way to the Supreme Court.

Monday, the Court will hear arguments on Morse v. Frederick, in what legal experts say could be the most significant case on student free speech since the days of Vietnam War protests.

At stake is the 1969 landmark ruling Tinker v. Des Moines, which said that students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

Since then, the Court has narrowed that ruling, giving schools the right to censor speech to maintain order and protect students from harmful messages.

Less Tolerance?

But since the 1999 student shootings at Columbine High School, the legal climate has changed, and that, experts said, could influence the Court's tolerance for student free speech.
ABC News: 'Bong Hits 4 Jesus': Student Protest Goes to Supreme Court

It was ACROSS THE STREET from the school.

Case closed.

The kid is innocent.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 06:39 PM
 
He was suspended for carrying a sign while he wasn't even in school? Yeah, don't see that going through. Schools have a legitimate need to maintain order that conflicts somewhat with freedom of speech, but stuff that happens outside of school definitely doesn't fall under that.
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 06:54 PM
 
I like this kid.
__________________________________________________

Play Food Fight! available free on the App Store!
Or how about a really weird (or stupid) game: Nesen Probe, it's also free.
     
marden  (op)
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 07:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by design219 View Post
I like this kid.
Do you?

There are people who post here who I can imagine doing the exact same thing under the same circumstance and some of these posters I don't know well enough to say I like them. Some I think I would like, some just so-so and others I think I might really dislike. But I don't really know.

What else do you know about him that would lead you to say you like him?
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 07:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by marden View Post
There are people who post here who I can imagine doing the exact same thing under the same circumstance and some of these posters I don't know well enough to say I like them. Some I think I would like, some just so-so and others I think I might really dislike. But I don't really know.
It sounds like you generally don't like people. Other people have different feelings.
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
marden  (op)
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 07:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
It sounds like you generally don't like people. Other people have different feelings.
Hmmm...I've always been a people person. But dealing with people's weaknesses and shortcomings and foibles on a regular basis over a long period can be trying and sometimes I feel that I was more blissful when I was more ignorant of human nature.

I'd say I'm more choosy now.

God intends that we find Heaven through others. But doing so can sometimes be hellish.
     
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 07:34 PM
 
Important facts:

The ACLU further argues that student free speech restrictions since the Tinker case do not apply: The event was not school-sponsored and Frederick was not disruptive.
The parade itself was not on school grounds
Yep - the school overstepped their bounds.

What I'm wondering, and the article doesn't address this, is what's at stake in the actual case? (Aside from the obvious policy & precedent implicatons). I mean, did the kid sue the school for damages? What does he get if he 'wins'? Is it a civil or criminal case? These things aren't necessarily pertinent to the end point of the article, but a more complete and responsible news reporter/editor would have included them. It would also be unreasonable if the kid wins and gets damages of millions of dollars or something like that - that's why I'd want to know.

I'm not asking anyone here to answer these questions - I don't care enough to hunt around for this, and therefore wouldn't expect anyone else to do that for me. Just commenting on the reporting...
     
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by marden View Post
What else do you know about him that would lead you to say you like him?
Not a thing.
__________________________________________________

Play Food Fight! available free on the App Store!
Or how about a really weird (or stupid) game: Nesen Probe, it's also free.
     
marden  (op)
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by design219 View Post
Not a thing.
Ok. Just asking.
     
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 09:19 PM
 
It's just obnoxious really. It's not freedom of speech. What is he speaking? He's just being rude, does he honestly think that somehow Jesus and bong hits are for one another? I think he's just trying to be offensive. I don't think the school should have suspended him. But I hardly think he's some sort of great champions of rights of the little guy.
     
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 09:51 PM
 
Well, pretty much everyone becomes a complete asshat at some point between oh, say, 17-21, give or take. Most people grow out of it. Well, some anyway. OK - a few...

I'll give this guy the benefit of the doubt and say that this was his time.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 10:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
It's just obnoxious really. It's not freedom of speech. What is he speaking? He's just being rude, does he honestly think that somehow Jesus and bong hits are for one another? I think he's just trying to be offensive. I don't think the school should have suspended him. But I hardly think he's some sort of great champions of rights of the little guy.

How do you know that Jesus never smoked weed? Nobody does, but it is entirely possible.
     
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 10:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
What I'm wondering, and the article doesn't address this, is what's at stake in the actual case? (Aside from the obvious policy & precedent implicatons). I mean, did the kid sue the school for damages? What does he get if he 'wins'? Is it a civil or criminal case? It would also be unreasonable if the kid wins and gets damages of millions of dollars or something like that - that's why I'd want to know.
He's already won a settlement with the City of Juneau.
Frederick accused the school and police of retaliating because of his banner. He eventually sued the city for harassment over the arrests. City officials agreed in 2004 to pay a $22,000 settlement without conceding any guilt, according to records.

Meanwhile Frederick's father had lost his job, in part because of the federal lawsuit his son filed against the school board.

Frank Frederick was in a tight spot, to be sure. He was a risk manager for the school district's insurance company. The company was facing big legal fees because of the federal suit. The senior Frederick agreed to shield himself from anything touching on the legal case. But after refusing to intervene with his son, he was demoted and eventually fired, according to his lawsuit against Alaska Public Entity Insurance. The case, which turned on other issues as well, ended with a jury award to Frederick of $200,000 plus interest and fees.
Originally Posted by Creepdogg
I'm not asking anyone here to answer these questions - I don't care enough to hunt around for this, and therefore wouldn't expect anyone else to do that for me. Just commenting on the reporting...
This article has much more info on the whole story: http://www.adn.com/news/government/l...-8580806c.html

I *think* it requires registration, so I'll go ahead and quote it.

'Bong Hits 4 Jesus' goes to the Supreme Court
JUNEAU: Teen suspended for banner gets his day in nation's highest court.
By TOM KIZZIA
Anchorage Daily News
Published: March 4, 2007
Last Modified: March 4, 2007 at 10:51 AM
The long journey started five years ago, on a quiet afternoon at Juneau-Douglas High School, as a student sat alone in the commons area reading Albert Camus' novel "The Stranger."

Joe Frederick was 18 years old in 2002 when he was suspended.

In mid-March the road ends at the U.S. Supreme Court, where the nationally watched "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" case will test the limits of free speech in public schools.

Joe Frederick was an 18-year-old senior back then. His classes were done for the day, and "Camaro Joe," as some kids called him, was waiting for his girlfriend to finish so he could give her a ride home. As Frederick recalls the story, a vice principal approached and told him he couldn't stay in the commons without supervision. He would have to leave the campus to wait for her.

Frederick refused. He insisted he had a right to sit quietly in his own school and read a French existentialist. Two Juneau police officers were summoned, and Frederick left after they threatened to arrest him for trespass.

The next morning at school, Frederick turned his chair around and sat with his back to the flag during the Pledge of Allegiance.

"This was my symbolic protest against a school administration that clearly lacked common sense and abused its power to retaliate against anyone who dared question their authority," he wrote later in a mini-autobiography where he quoted Thoreau, Voltaire and Martin Luther King.

Frederick said his father was summoned to the school to discuss a possible suspension. School officials say they have no record of the incident.

Regarding a suspension at that point, the Supreme Court was already clear. In the unsettled world of free speech rights in public schools the right to refuse to salute the flag is one of the few established points.

After that, Frederick said, he resolved to find a free speech protest that would draw wider notice.

He found one.

On Jan. 24, 2002, Frederick and friends unfurled a 14-foot paper banner with duct-tape letters reading "Bong Hits 4 Jesus." They were standing on a sidewalk opposite the high school during a public Olympic-torch parade attended by students and teachers.

The phrase, which they'd spotted on a snowboard sticker at a local ski slope, was meant to be funny, provocative and nonsensically ambiguous, Frederick said. To school officials, it was an open challenge to their anti-drug policies, at what they deemed a school event.

Principal Deborah Morse crossed the street and crumpled up the banner.

Frederick's move -- and the school's stern response -- had more impacts than he ever imagined. The incident gave way to his suspension from school, several arrests by Juneau police, a lawsuit against the city settled in his favor, the loss of his father's job and, eventually, the departure of father and son from Alaska and the United States.

It also resulted in a court case, Morse v. Frederick, that has climbed through the federal system and will be up for oral argument in the Supreme Court on March 19.

Frederick, now 23, still sounded like the defiant student existentialist Friday in a teleconference from China, where he is teaching high school English.

"I wanted to know more precisely the boundaries of my freedom," he said when reporters asked why he'd raised the banner. "I feel that if you don't use your rights you lose them."

SURPRISING ALLIES
It's easy to picture someone like Joe Frederick in any high school yearbook or teen movie: new to the town, chafing at authority, bright but not the most serious about classwork (though Frederick still talks about a government class where they discussed the Bill of Rights).

"He was definitely a kid who liked to push buttons," said a classmate, Micaela Croteau.

The banner itself didn't cause a big reaction that day among students, Frederick said.

"Students thought it was dumb," Croteau agreed. "But people were mostly amused by the way the administrators reacted, how they got on their walkie-talkies and called for backup."

Backup at this point has come to include the National School Boards Association, former federal drug czar William J. Bennett and the solicitor general of the United States. Arguing for free on behalf of the Juneau School Board is Kenneth Starr, the former independent prosecutor whose investigation led to the impeachment of President Clinton.

Frederick has drawn reinforcements, too. The American Civil Liberties Union has worked with Juneau lawyer Doug Mertz since the original case was filed in April 2002. They went to court after the school board refused to erase Frederick's eight-day suspension from his record.

Among other friends-of-the-court on Frederick's side are a half-dozen Christian and constitutional rights organizations who say they are looking past the "ill-advised stunt" to worry about future censorship of religious or "pro-family" expression in public schools. Also submitting briefs for him are groups supporting drug-policy reform and gay rights as well as booksellers, librarians and feminists.

The organizations on Frederick's side all come around to a similar argument: that school officials should not be able to punish nondisruptive student speech just because they interpret it as contradicting school policy. They argue that Frederick's decision to unfurl his banner off school property makes the school's reach even more alarming.

The fact that this occurred in Alaska was relevant, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said when it ruled in Frederick's favor last year, setting up the Supreme Court showdown.

Alaska has had a particularly lively and ongoing legal and political debate over criminalization of marijuana, the court noted. Would the school's laudable anti-drug policy mean administrators could challenge a student handing out the Alaska Supreme Court decision allowing private possession of marijuana, the court wondered?

On the other side, lawyers argue that promoting drugs or alcohol at school events has long been banned by school policies. They contend the students were attending the torch parade during school hours as part of a school-sanctioned event.

"The banner -- if left undisturbed -- could have told not only the high school student body but the larger community that drug-use promotion is openly tolerated within the local public high school," Starr said in his brief.

Juneau school superintendent Peggy Cowan said last week that the district encourages discussion of controversial issues, including drug policies. But such debate belongs in the classroom, she said.

School officials are especially troubled by the 9th Circuit decision to hold Morse personally liable for violating Frederick's First Amendment rights. Removing her official immunity will make it hard for officials across the country to interpret school board policies, they contend.

RETALIATION?
Trouble started piling up quickly for Joe Frederick after he unfurled his banner.

That afternoon, he was suspended by principal Morse for 10 days. Starr said in his Supreme Court brief that Frederick "displayed a belligerent attitude and gave evasive and mocking answers to her questions."

Frederick said a five-day suspension was doubled after he talked back by quoting Thomas Jefferson on free speech. Morse testified the extra days came because he wouldn't cooperate and name the other students who held the banner.

The following week, while serving his suspension, Frederick was arrested by Juneau police and charged with trespass while parked at the municipal swimming pool next to the high school, waiting to pick up his girlfriend. His white Camaro was impounded and searched for drugs. He complained that police ruined his electrical door and windows. "The only thing found was a straw that was in a Taco Bell cup that the police listed as drug paraphernalia," he later wrote.

The trespassing charges were dropped after a dispute over how close to the property line his Camaro was parked, according to city attorney John Hartle.

Back in school, Frederick was suspended again in March for wearing a Leatherman tool in the hallway. He was also arrested again, this time after failing to signal a left turn in his Camaro. Police took him to jail, saying he'd failed to pay an old fine for minor-consuming-alcohol. The charge was dropped when police discovered it was a clerical error, said Mertz, Frederick's lawyer.

Frederick accused the school and police of retaliating because of his banner. He eventually sued the city for harassment over the arrests. City officials agreed in 2004 to pay a $22,000 settlement without conceding any guilt, according to records.

Meanwhile Frederick's father had lost his job, in part because of the federal lawsuit his son filed against the school board.

Frank Frederick was in a tight spot, to be sure. He was a risk manager for the school district's insurance company. The company was facing big legal fees because of the federal suit. The senior Frederick agreed to shield himself from anything touching on the legal case. But after refusing to intervene with his son, he was demoted and eventually fired, according to his lawsuit against Alaska Public Entity Insurance. The case, which turned on other issues as well, ended with a jury award to Frederick of $200,000 plus interest and fees.

Frank Frederick has since found himself unable to get a job in the insurance industry, said Mertz. With no aid from his father, Joe Frederick said, he dropped out after his first year of college. His father eventually found work teaching English in China, and Joe recently joined him there.

BITTER FEELINGS
During the ACLU teleconference Friday with national reporters, Joe Frederick declined to say where he's living in China or compare himself to dissenters there. Nor would he answer when a Juneau reporter, citing information passed along by "detractors," asked about a criminal conviction for selling marijuana in 2003, during his college year in Texas.

"I've never professed to be perfect or a saint," Frederick said. "To reduce this to mudslinging and personal character assassination is wrong."

Texas court records show Frederick pleaded guilty on March 17, 2004, to a misdemeanor sale of pot near the Stephen F. Austin State University campus and was sentenced to 60 days in county jail.

Juneau lawyer David Crosby, who represented the schools in the early rounds of the case, said Frederick has "delusions of grandeur."

"The Bong Hits case is an interesting one, and the district has not gotten a whole lot of sympathy from the press. So be it," Crosby said via e-mail last week.

"It is particularly galling, however, that while the district is being painted as the enemy of students' rights, the carefully manipulated image of Joe Frederick as a latter day Thoreau ... is highly misleading, offensive and ludicrous," he said.

For his part, Frederick said Friday he's glad he stuck with the free-speech lawsuit, despite the uproar it caused in his life. The stakes have grown big, but it was clear that on some level this was still about Camaro Joe with his nose in the face of an unbending school administration.

"They don't want to admit that they're wrong in any way," he said.

Daily News reporter Tom Kizzia can be reached at tkizzia@adn.com or in Homer at 1-907-235-4244.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
It's just obnoxious really. It's not freedom of speech. What is he speaking?
English, evidently. Or are you trying to (incorrectly) suggest that freedom of speech only involves opening your mouth and forcing air through your larynx?

Originally Posted by Salty View Post
He's just being rude, does he honestly think that somehow Jesus and bong hits are for one another? I think he's just trying to be offensive.
No ****, Sherlock. And he has a Constitutional right to be that way.
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2007, 11:36 PM
 
Well there you go. Thank you AKcrab for the post and the link.

It's obvious this kid was getting under the skin of a lot of people in his community. That's not grounds for unlawful harassment, but he seems to have brought a lot of this on himself.

It'll be interesting to see how this turns out. He was certainly within his rights to do what he did, but it's not like he deserves some big reward or payday for his troubles.
     
marden  (op)
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 17, 2007, 12:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
How do you know that Jesus never smoked weed? Nobody does, but it is entirely possible.
Ted Koppel told me Jesus NEVER hit a bong.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 17, 2007, 01:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by marden View Post
Ted Koppel told me Jesus NEVER hit a bong.

This needs to be your next signature quote. This is the best thing you've ever said!
     
marden  (op)
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 17, 2007, 01:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
This needs to be your next signature quote. This is the best thing you've ever said!
Sorry, I wasn't myself. I was feeling a bit
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Tampa, Florida
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 17, 2007, 07:21 AM
 
Where is the freedom of spanking your kids?
     
marden  (op)
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 17, 2007, 09:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
Where is the freedom of spanking your kids?
Good question!
     
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: :ИOITAↃO⅃
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 17, 2007, 11:11 AM
 
AKCrab, I haven't seen you around here in ages. How are the doggies?
     
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 17, 2007, 10:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mithras View Post
AKCrab, I haven't seen you around here in ages. How are the doggies?
Yeah, I went on sabbatical. I wasn't in a good place.

Recently got a job at a local Apple Certified Repair shop, aced my first certification test, and life is good. (Still have two more tests to take, but after acing the first one, the stress level for the other two is gone.)

Dogs are fine. Current animal count:

Dogs - 5
Cats - 7
Ducks - 4

And just so this isn't completely derailed...

I considered this story "over" back when he got his judgement against the City of Juneau.

This thing seems so obvious to me.
  • He was off school property.
  • He wasn't playing hooky.
  • The school had absolutely no right to do anything at all.
The fact that this has reached the Supreme Court boggles my mind.
     
   
Thread Tools
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:52 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2011 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.7 © 2000-2011, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2