[spindler]

It seems to me that middle class Republicans think that the tax structure hurts them. They believe that their money gets thrown away on helping the poor, who of course are poor because of their lack of character. The idea is that everyone else is paying the bill for the poor, and we'd all be more comfortable if not for the poor.

However, it seems to me that really the top 2%, the super rich, are paying the bill for everyone. The middle class receives "welfare" or wealth redistribution from the rich just like the poor do, but they just receive less.

Now my goal in this thread is not to argue for the nth time about whether wealth distribution is right or wrong. I am on the liberal side, so you can guess my opinion. But I just want to factually know at what cutoff point do you neither give nor receive. I would guess that a family that makes $100,000 a year RECEIVES a gain from the rich in our tax system.

Here's how much tax you would have to pay every year to pay an "equal share" if everyone paid equally and not received from the rich:

Military - $1000 every year of your life (even when growing up and after age 65) for the military, plus more during a time of war. There are 300 million Americans and the military budget is around 300 billion so that's a $1000 per person every year of your life.

Education - School before college costs about $6000 per year per person and it wouldn't be much cheaper even if the government didn't run it. So that's $78,000 for grades K-12, or $1000 per year for a person who lives to be 78.

College Education - most people receive some aid when they go to college. If you choose a state school, you are getting like at least $30,000 for free that is paid by the rich. A private school costs at least $50,000 for four years. A state school might run $20,000. Now state schools aren't magically cheaper. The extra $30,000 is paid by the state, from taxes collected.

So so far, just for the military and education we are up to about $2500 for every year of your life.

Nursing homes: Now here is the real doozy and it is obvious most Americans couldn't afford this without "welfare", ie. wealth redistribution. A nursing home can easily cost $75,000 a year, and if you have nothing, it is paid by Medicaid. Most Americans do not and can not pay $750,000 for a ten year stay in a nursing home. I'd bet the average American, other than millionaires who just don't qualify, spends at least three years in a nursing home paid for by the state, which is $225,000, or more than $2500 for every year of your life.

So we are up to $5000 a year for every year of your life, which is like $10,000 tax for the forty years you work.

But we haven't even covered paying for the police, firefighters, constant maintenance of the roads, public libraries (which would cost you out of pocket even if they were privatized), prisons, the space agency NASA, judges and lawyers to lock up criminals, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR MEDICAL RESEARCH, etc.

Oh, and I forgot the unemployment checks everyone loves when they are laid off, and Medicare, which covers part of retired people health care.

I'm guessing that unless you make an AVERAGE of $60,000 for the forty years that you work, you are receiving at least some "welfare" from the rich.

And some people might be saying "But I'd have so much money if I didn't pay Social Security taxes." Well, on average, people get back about what they put in. They would have more if they invest it wisely, but that is a risk.

So you probably have a bunch of rednecks in Arkansas that think that "the people on welfare" are dragging America down when in fact they themselves, with their $28,000 a year shitkicker salaries, are living off the rich, just to a lesser extent.

So what is the break even point in salary where you neither gain nor lose from the tax system? Could someone who knows the numbers (as opposed to talking out of your ass) give me an estimate?

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by spindler 

So you probably have a bunch of rednecks in Arkansas that think that "the people on welfare" are dragging America down when in fact they themselves, with their $28,000 a year shitkicker salaries, are living off the rich, just to a lesser extent.

So what is the break even point in salary where you neither gain nor lose from the tax system? Could someone who knows the numbers (as opposed to talking out of your ass) give me an estimate?

1. You're asking for a treatise in family economics, based on a bunch of guesses?

2. You want people to answer you when you talk about "rednecks in Arkansas" living on "sh1tkicker salares?"

3. Speaking of "talking out of your ass......"

[Chuckit]

Uh…anything above the median? If there's more poverty below you than there is wealth above you, and wealth is being redistributed in any kind of even way, you're on the giving end of the stick.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Uh…anything above the median? If there's more poverty below you than there is wealth above you, and wealth is being redistributed in any kind of even way, you're on the giving end of the stick.

It's more complicated than that. If you're going to calculate things this way, you need to count in all sources of revenue, including local sales and property taxes. I pay close to $5k a year in property taxes, and that's low for this neck of the woods. All that goes to the local school district, local police and fire departments, maintaining the roads, taking the trash, etc. I get to take a tax deduction off my Federal taxes for this, but of course that doesn't offset nearly the whole cost, especially now that we're on one income. Add Federal and State income and payroll taxes on top of that, (payroll taxes especially hit the working poor hardest) and the story is a lot different.

Also, you need to consider that the tax code (especially now with the Child Tax Credit) is weighted to give a benefit to families with children. When my wife was working before we had our daughter, we were easily paying 2-4 times more Federal Tax (in absolute dollars) than I am paying now (because we can now take the credit, and we have more exemptions). Since our income was higher too, expressed as percentages the increase wasn't quite as dramatic.

Still, if spindler is looking for people who don't "pay their fair share", I would start with breeders like me who have good-paying jobs but can still take all or part of the child tax credit. This is why the gays are pissed that we're not letting them get married and adopt -- they want to be freeloaders, just like good traditional families are. Families with children are dragging down America!

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Families with children are dragging down America!

It's about time the truth was told! Heterosexuals are destroying the fabric of society.

[spindler]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

1. You're asking for a treatise in family economics, based on a bunch of guesses?

I started off with some initial numbers just to start. I asked if anyone with some expertise could give me precise numbers.

Originally Posted by KarlG 

2. You want people to answer you when you talk about "rednecks in Arkansas" living on "sh1tkicker salares?"

I am a liberal. My two goals are to know what the answer is and then probably use it against conservatives that wouldn't help someone else to see what they say when they realize they would be poorer if they paid an equal share of taxes.

My point is that there are people who make $30,000 a year who would vote to cut aid to families and children, when those same people don't realize that other people are paying their taxes for them.

Either way, numbers are numbers. Why hide from numbers? I'm not a complete personal responsibility nut, but I certainly want to know if I pay enough for what I take in or if someone else is paying for the roads I use because I don't make enough to pay for them myself. this seems like a basic thing most people would be curious about.

[Krusty]

Originally Posted by spindler 

My point is that there are people who make $30,000 a year who would vote to cut aid to families and children, when those same people don't realize that other people are paying their taxes for them.

It'd be extremely difficult to pin down who, individually, gets and takes the most from the tax system. There are people making millions of dollars per year running military or healthcare businesses that run almost solely off dollars from the US taxpayer. THAT is redistribution as well. There are people making $12k/yr who are single, without dependents and without tax write-offs who pay a higher percentage of their money to taxes that people making $120k/yr. And then of course there is the privately controlled tax of lending and interest rates (privately controlled by the Fed, which is an agency not responsible to the people of our democracy). When you put money in the bank, interest doesn't just materialize out of nowhere (though it seems like it does). The interest you are being paid comes from the even higher interest that people without capital are paying to borrow the money (minus the bank's cut) ... hence: save money and get 5%, borrow money and be charged 8%. You get the picture. So, is a person making $50k/yr off interest a net donor or net recipient of the common largesse ? In terms of taxes, they would be a net donor (though unearned income is barely taxed these days and this person would avoid payroll taxes altogether). But in terms of overall contribution to society, they would be, by far, a net recipient (earning interest from other people's labor when they don't actually do, or produce, anything themselves).

So, I would restructure your question in terms of production. How much of a person's income is derived though their direct labor? The greater the portion of your direct income that is derived from other people's labor, the more that is being redistributed TO you regardless of what your balance with the IRS is.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Still, if spindler is looking for people who don't "pay their fair share", I would start with breeders like me who have good-paying jobs but can still take all or part of the child tax credit. This is why the gays are pissed that we're not letting them get married and adopt -- they want to be freeloaders, just like good traditional families are. Families with children are dragging down America!

All of a sudden I find the thread interesting.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

All of a sudden I find the thread interesting.

Thanks, I do try and make interesting posts. (Although I can't help but wonder what Ted Koppel would think of income redistribution?)

I couldn't believe how much our income taxes went down after we had our daughter and my wife quit her job. Our income was lower, but we were paying roughly the same amount in Mortgage Interest + Property Taxes, which meant that we were taking roughly the same itemized deduction, which meant that our AGI was even lower than you would expect. That moved us in a lower tax bracket, which combined with the Child Tax Credit, gave us a very low Federal tax rate as expressed in percentages.

Are we paying our "fair share"? Of course we are -- we are paying exactly what the Government says we are supposed to. And I can assure you that when we were both working, before we had our daughter, we paid "our fair share" too (which was a lot more) without too much whining.

Right now, if my wife were working full time, then after paying for the additional taxes and the day care expenses we would probably still bring in more, but it totally wouldn't be worth it. I'm glad we can live on just one income.

[Dakar²]

You know, this goes a long way towards explaining why red states get more than they give, as conservatives tend to sire more children in general.

[BRussell]

I just finished my taxes recently, and my tax software gives me my effective tax rate. It was 4%. Four friggen percent. I paid just over $3000 in total federal income taxes. My AGI was around $80,000, and me and my wife have two darling little $1000 tax credits. Somebody else must be paying lots, because I sure as hell am not.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Somebody else must be paying lots, because I sure as hell am not.

*cue conservative bumrush*

[RAILhead]

Redistribution? What in hell for? It's my frakking money, and I'll distribute it as I please -- or not.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I just finished my taxes recently, and my tax software gives me my effective tax rate. It was 4%. Four friggen percent. I paid just over $3000 in total federal income taxes. My AGI was around $80,000, and me and my wife have two darling little $1000 tax credits. Somebody else must be paying lots, because I sure as hell am not.

That's pretty good. A human accountant can get that down to 3% (I believe that is the bare minimum for Social Security) Your mileage may vary.

My only other comments on this topic:
Keep receipts for everything.
Sales tax is deductable, so is the interest on loans, credit cards, home/home improvement loans, and just about everything else.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Redistribution? What in hell for? It's my frakking money, and I'll distribute it as I please -- or not.

haha, post of the day.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I just finished my taxes recently, and my tax software gives me my effective tax rate. It was 4%. Four friggen percent. I paid just over $3000 in total federal income taxes. My AGI was around $80,000, and me and my wife have two darling little $1000 tax credits. Somebody else must be paying lots, because I sure as hell am not.

Wow, man, thats WAAAY off. Nobody should be paying $3k on $80k AGI. Are y'all self-employed? I'm paying $1700 on $120k AGI, and that's too much! The reason, though, is because we no longer get mortgage interest, so I'm taking the hit and offsetting it with more charitable donations.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by osiris 

That's pretty good. A human accountant can get that down to 3% (I believe that is the bare minimum for Social Security) Your mileage may vary.

My only other comments on this topic:
Keep receipts for everything.
Sales tax is deductable, so is the interest on loans, credit cards, home/home improvement loans, and just about everything else.

Please explain to me how interest on loans (that are not student loans or mortgage/home equity loans) or interest on credit cards are deductible! That doesn't sound kosher to me.

Sales Tax is deductable, but IIRC it's only deductible if you aren't already taking a deduction for state income tax. I think you can take either one or the other. And if you're in a high-income-tax state (like the Great State of New York), you're better off taking the deduction from your Income Tax ratehr than your Sales Taxes....

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Please explain to me how interest on loans (that are not student loans or home equity loans) or interest on credit cards are deductible!

Sales Tax is deductable, but IIRC it's only deductible if you aren't already taking a deduction for state income tax. I think you can take either one or the other. And if you're in a high-income-tax state (like the Great State of New York), you're better off taking the deduction from your Income Tax ratehr than your Sales Taxes....

I just do what the accountant says, so I can't explain how or why, only that it is, at least under my circumstance (multiple business proprietorship)

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Wow, man, thats WAAAY off. Nobody should be paying $3k on $80k AGI. Are y'all self-employed? I'm paying $1700 on $120k AGI, and that's too much! The reason, though, is because we no longer get mortgage interest, so I'm taking the hit and offsetting it with more charitable donations.

Nah, it's not way off, you're just a cheater.

But here's what I wonder: I always hear people say "I have to give 40% (50%, 30%, etc.) of my paycheck to the gubmint!" They even have Tax Freedom Day, April 26th (I looked it up), which is the day people allegedly start getting to keep their own money - prior to that, they say you're working just to pay taxes. But if I pay only 4%, you pay barely 1%, others pay somewhere in between, I don't see how they get to 30% or 40%. I know that's only income taxes and doesn't count lots of other taxes, but still.

I think we pay a lot less in taxes than we let on when we complain about it.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I think we pay a lot less in taxes than we let on when we complain about it.

ITS STILL TOO MUCH!!!111

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Nah, it's not way off, you're just a cheater.

But here's what I wonder: I always hear people say "I have to give 40% (50%, 30%, etc.) of my paycheck to the gubmint!" They even have Tax Freedom Day, April 26th (I looked it up), which is the day people allegedly start getting to keep their own money - prior to that, they say you're working just to pay taxes. But if I pay only 4%, you pay barely 1%, others pay somewhere in between, I don't see how they get to 30% or 40%. I know that's only income taxes and doesn't count lots of other taxes, but still.

I think we pay a lot less in taxes than we let on when we complain about it.

No cheats! Charity is a good way to lower AGI, which makes your income tax burden more manageable. What suck is when you make over a certain amount, you can't write off ANYTHING. This is my parents' situation -- he has to pay every year because of the amount he makes, and he's over the threshold to be able to have any tax credits count for him. Totally sucks, but there's nothing one can really do about it. Well, there are things, but nothing worth doing.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Nah, it's not way off, you're just a cheater.

But here's what I wonder: I always hear people say "I have to give 40% (50%, 30%, etc.) of my paycheck to the gubmint!" They even have Tax Freedom Day, April 26th (I looked it up), which is the day people allegedly start getting to keep their own money - prior to that, they say you're working just to pay taxes. But if I pay only 4%, you pay barely 1%, others pay somewhere in between, I don't see how they get to 30% or 40%. I know that's only income taxes and doesn't count lots of other taxes, but still.

I think we pay a lot less in taxes than we let on when we complain about it.

They tend to count payroll taxes, state and local sales taxes, local property taxes, and other taxes and fees into that figure. If you total up all the money you pay to any government for taxes and fees, you can probably construct a reasonable scanario where people work into April to pay for it all.