[Orion27]

I find it pretty amazing to see illegal aliens demonstrating in the streets demanding their rights. I found it unsettling to see journalists being beaten by the police. I think it's inevitable that we will see more violence if we don't begin to address the the border issue. We need secure borders right? I believe it's time to get serious about the iillegal alien issue and bring back the rule of law. Is this what we have to look forward too every May day? This is the culture of victimization run amok. Illegals, when found should be arrested and deported. Businesses who hire illegals should be fined and or closed.

[Kerrigan]

I agree. If you want to come to the US and be a citizen, there are legal means to do so. The higher standard of living in the US is a privilege to Mexicans, not a right. That's the sad reality of life.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

I find it pretty amazing to see illegal aliens demonstrating in the streets demanding their rights. I found it unsettling to see journalists being beaten by the police. I think it's inevitable that we will see more violence if we don't begin to address the the border issue. We need secure borders right? I believe it's time to get serious about the iillegal alien issue and bring back the rule of law. Is this what we have to look forward too every May day? This is the culture of victimization run amok. Illegals, when found should be arrested and deported. Businesses who hire illegals should be fined and or closed.

I agree too. The only serious question seems to be what we should do about the millions of illegal immigrants here today.

[Rumor]

Even when they get deported, they just come right back. That is a problem in and of itself. They basically get a "don't do that" fingerwag, lunch and ride to see their families.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I agree too. The only serious question seems to be what we should do about the millions of illegal immigrants here today.

We start by securing the border. We detain, jail and deport. Stop all of this spanish language BS. English only in government publications, motorvehicle departments ect. ect. Stop enabling the illegal and encouraging the balkanization of this country. We can require registration, citizenship to get a drivers license, ect. We can enforce the law applied to all others trying to enter this country.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

We start by securing the border. We detain, jail and deport. Stop all of this spanish language BS. English only in government publications, motorvehicle departments ect. ect. Stop enabling the illegal and encouraging the balkanization of this country. We can require registration, citizenship to get a drivers license, ect. We can enforce the law applied to all others trying to enter this country.

Yeah, Europeans would think that's hilarious.

There are also plenty of U.S. citizens who are Spanish speakers. Because they pay taxes the government is obligated to make government services accessible to them.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

I think it's inevitable that we will see more violence if we don't begin to address the the border issue.

You ain't kidding. It's going to make the First Civil War look like a walk in the park. Probably not, though, b/c most folks are too fat, dumb and happy (or relativistic) to do anything about it. They'd rather keep paying an illegal $20 a week to mow their lawn.

The worst part is the human side of it -- illegal labor is right next to slavery. The conditions these folks put up with are intolerable. Solution? Send them home. If they're at home they'll be much poorer, but at least the revolution can occur THERE (where it's probably needed) rather than here. As for fining businesses, nail 'em.

It will get a lot worse before it gets any better.

[Helmling]

What a non-issue.

You know people raised the same kind of stink when my ancestors came to America. Classic immigration backlash. Unfounded "my culture is sinking!" paranoia. The Irish (that's my people) were going to breed out all the decent protestants and turn America into a potato-eating vassal to Rome.

The "secure-our-border" crap is the same nonsense in a different century. In a generation, your kids will laugh at you, if they're not already.

The "illegal" immigration "problem" from Mexico isn't a problem at all. In fact, that's the problem. We've been exploiting these people by allowing them to work at low wages without legal status, deporting them every once in a while just to keep 'em poor even as we all--and I mean ALL--enjoy the fruits of their discounted labor.

Give me a break folks.

Before one more of you people gripe about the "rule of law" I want you to switch your diet so that 100% of your food, every last morsel, comes from small farms where you can confirm that no illegal labor is used. When you're paying that premium on your meals and you know for certain that you're no longer benefiting at the check-out line from this very "problem" you decry, then you can talk about this supposed issue.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by finboy 

You ain't kidding. It's going to make the First Civil War look like a walk in the park. Probably not, though, b/c most folks are too fat, dumb and happy (or relativistic) to do anything about it. They'd rather keep paying an illegal $20 a week to mow their lawn.

The worst part is the human side of it -- illegal labor is right next to slavery. The conditions these folks put up with are intolerable. Solution? Send them home. If they're at home they'll be much poorer, but at least the revolution can occur THERE (where it's probably needed) rather than here. As for fining businesses, nail 'em.

It will get a lot worse before it gets any better.

You act like we have nothing to do with the poverty in Mexico. Give me a break! It's not "their" problem. We have set the stage and made Mexico an economic vassal. We can't throw up our arms and say, "hey, it's their problem." Please. We are intertwined and the Mexicans have every right to come forward for their share.

I say throw open the doors. It's immigration that's kept this country vital, and god willing, historians will credit the rise of the hispanic population in the early part of the 21st century as a factor in the revitalization of a culture that had become complacent, opulent, and corrupt.

[Buckaroo]

To answer your question. The illegal aliens were 100% at fault. They should have been gassed with sleeping gas picked up by immagration and hauled by cattle car to Mexico.

[idjeff]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

It's immigration that's kept this country vital

Note the absence of "Illegal" here...

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

We are intertwined and the Mexicans have every right to come forward for their share.

That's the fundamental problem, right there. The belief that there's something that could be referred to as "their share." Plus the belief that I somehow caused the political state in Mexico -- I didn't. Had nothing to do with it, in fact. Before a country can grow, even in the shadow of their more progressive neighbors, they have to straighten things out themselves. Mexico, and everything south of here in general, refuses to straighten themselves out b/c it's costly. Just as it was costly to integrate all 50 states in this country, and it took many years. 50 years ago there were plenty of places in the rural South that had standards of living and legal systems no better than what's in Mexico today. And the tendency was to "go North" for better jobs, quality of life, etc. It wasn't until those jobs dried up that folks took it upon themselves to change things (and the Justice Dept. and Supreme Court helped too, with segregation at least).

One thing that helped in this country was a common language. I'd say it was crucial. As long as illegals (from whatever part of the world) continue to promote bilingualism, it's not going to progress much. I'm not convinced that most immigrants support bilingualism, but that's what the media (and interest groups) want us to believe.

Anyhow, I'm also afraid that a backlash is coming. This time, I bet, it will come from the Left and not the Right, although some more of this "Democrat leadership" might push us farther to the Right than we care to think about. Eight years of President ThunderThighs is liable to bring out all the kooks, just as her husband's regime did.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

To answer your question. The illegal aliens were 100% at fault. They should have been gassed with sleeping gas picked up by immagration and hauled by cattle car to Mexico.

Wow. Such blissful unawareness of the evocations of your imagery...

gassed...


and hauled by cattle car.


If I were you I'd step back from the internet very, very slowly und SCHATT UP TIL SUNDAY.

Jawohl,

-a.

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

What a non-issue.

You know people raised the same kind of stink when my ancestors came to America. Classic immigration backlash. Unfounded "my culture is sinking!" paranoia. The Irish (that's my people) were going to breed out all the decent protestants and turn America into a potato-eating vassal to Rome.

The "secure-our-border" crap is the same nonsense in a different century. In a generation, your kids will laugh at you, if they're not already.

The "illegal" immigration "problem" from Mexico isn't a problem at all. In fact, that's the problem. We've been exploiting these people by allowing them to work at low wages without legal status, deporting them every once in a while just to keep 'em poor even as we all--and I mean ALL--enjoy the fruits of their discounted labor.

Give me a break folks.

Before one more of you people gripe about the "rule of law" I want you to switch your diet so that 100% of your food, every last morsel, comes from small farms where you can confirm that no illegal labor is used. When you're paying that premium on your meals and you know for certain that you're no longer benefiting at the check-out line from this very "problem" you decry, then you can talk about this supposed issue.

Illegal immigrant labor is what is keeping the prices down at McDonalds so they can have a decent Dollar Menu.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

Illegal immigrant labor is what is keeping the prices down at McDonalds so they can have a decent Dollar Menu.

So basically illegal immigrants are making this country fat.

[TheWOAT]

The Short Answer: No.
The Long Answer: Yes.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Wow. Such blissful unawareness of the evocations of your imagery...

That's what I'm afraid of ... a REAL backlash.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by finboy 

That's what I'm afraid of ... a REAL backlash.

Buckaroo's jack-booted racism and idiocy are not the fault of any immigrant.

If there's a "REAL backlash" involving gassing and cattle cars, the instigators need to be rounded up and jailed before they get a chance to act.

(Which, incidentally, is where European laws against "inciting racial hatred" come from.)

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

We start by securing the border. We detain, jail and deport. Stop all of this spanish language BS. English only in government publications, motorvehicle departments ect. ect. Stop enabling the illegal and encouraging the balkanization of this country. We can require registration, citizenship to get a drivers license, ect. We can enforce the law applied to all others trying to enter this country.

I agree about securing the border. But if there's any language problem in the US, it's not that English isn't used enough, it's that too many Americans speak only English.

[OldManMac]

To answer the OP's original question; the Police seem to have been responsible for the "riot" (which, in typical fashion, is an overstatement).

LAPD's rubber bullet barrage probed - CNN.com

As to the question of illegal aliens being in the U. S., I tend to agree that they should not be allowed here. As an immigrant, who is a naturalized citizen, I have a problem with those who come here, thinking that we owe them something just because they're here. When my family arrived in 1953, legally, we realized that we had to learn English and we had to assimilate, if we were going to make it in our new land. The stores didn't have signs in English and German, telling us where to find things; we actually had to walk down the aisles and learn what those products were. I was put in kindergarden six weeks after we arrived, and somehow, I survived. My father was fortunate as most of his coworkers in the modelmaking shop he worked in were also German immigrants, but we didn't know that when we left Germany. Every night, at the dinner table, we all had to teach each other the new English words we used, and, being the oldest, and with a mother that didn't work, it was primarily up to me and my dad to teach the rest of the family English. We didn't have a tv until a year after we arrived, and even at that, we were the first ones on the block to own one. I have to be up front, and state that we had somewhat of an advantage, in that my dad's uncle sponsored us over, and bought my parents their first house here, as well as a car a year later, but he was repaid in a fairly short time. It was still a great leap to make the move, however, but it turned out fine.

As to those who say that Americans won't do the "menial" jobs that immigrants do, I have a one word answer: bullcrap. The correct statement is that they don't want to, or choose not to, do those jobs, because they somehow think they're beneath their abilities. There was a politician in Washington, whose name escapes me at the moment, who made a statement a few weeks back, about how he didn't want his son picking tomatos for a summer job, as if somehow his son was superior to everyone else. Of course, it's convenient for him that his son probably won't have to do that type of "menial" work.

Having said all that, in another hundred years, it won't make much of a difference in any event. The population of the U. S. is projected to become a majority of Mexicans sometime in the early part of the next century. The political pendulum is already swinging.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Wow. Such blissful unawareness of the evocations of your imagery...

gassed...


and hauled by cattle car.


If I were you I'd step back from the internet very, very slowly und SCHATT UP TIL SUNDAY.

Jawohl,

-a.

Are those sleeping gas cans?

And I don't think they'll mind that cattle car. It's better than the way they got in. It's a luxury since it has wheels, and they came by foot.

[analogika]

Oh jeez...

You can't *really* be THAT stupid, can you?

:: at a loss for words ::

Edit: just saw your posts over in the homosexuality thread. I guess you can.

[ebuddy]

The problem here is political paralysis run rampant. The two-headed snakes in Washington; The (D)s who appreciate the vote and the (R)s who appreciate the corporate lobby for cheap labor.

Illegal immigration is a real problem. Clinics closing. Disproportionate crime rate and use of civil resources for imprisoning the illegal and burdening our social services in welfare benefits. While the cigar-chomping, gold chain wearing suits export high tech, moderately educated jobs overseas we're welcoming in low-tech, uneducated illegal immigrants.

Yes, there was an influx of some 27 million immigrants between 1880 to 1930, but this ushered in incredible advances in health care, technology, science, and business. This is 27 million in a 40-year span. This is not the case today. In 2002 alone, there were more than 4 million who crossed our borders illegally. In one year. Current counters suggest an illegal immigration of approximately 10,000 per day. To say this is not a problem and compare it to Irish immigration of the past century is patently moronic. Everyone has a little compassion so it is an easy emotion to exploit. This is no longer about feeling empathy for someone who wants to find a better life. Finding a better life does not include dragging the facilitator of that new life down in favor of the culture you almost starved to death in leaving behind. This is not about compassion. This is about sovereignty and survival. The current influx of illegal immigration should be viewed as hostile and we need to absorb the current number of illegals already here while sealing the borders off entirely for at least 10 years. Period.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

And I don't think they'll mind that cattle car. It's better than the way they got in. It's a luxury since it has wheels, and they came by foot.

... and left approximately one million pounds of litter on their way in. You know, for the greens here.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by analogika 

You can't *really* be THAT stupid, can you?

:: at a loss for words ::

Edit: just saw your posts over in the homosexuality thread. I guess you can.

He's just become lucky number 3 on my ignore.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Everyone has a little compassion so it is an easy emotion to exploit. This is no longer about feeling empathy for someone who wants to find a better life. Finding a better life does not include dragging the facilitator of that new life down in favor of the culture you almost starved to death in leaving behind. This is not about compassion. This is about sovereignty and survival. The current influx of illegal immigration should be viewed as hostile and we need to absorb the current number of illegals already here while sealing the borders off entirely for at least 10 years. Period.

I think things may balance out more than you think. We do make money off the process, it leads to cheaper goods and services (which obviously has little to do with compassion). We're also not spending the money that we would have to spend to lock down our borders (not saying that's a good thing, just saying it's a cost we're not paying). I also think the notion of "doing jobs Americans won't do" (though I don't think you brought this up) doesn't account for the benefits of not making Americans do those jobs. IOW, unless we have enough of high-school dropouts to fill the need (which is what unskilled immigrant labor mainly competes with), this will force overqualified people into these jobs (or leave those jobs empty) for which the economy will also take a hit.

That being said, perhaps even more so because of it, I think your plan is totally compassionate. It would give the people already here the "American dream" and could very well perpetuate a revolution against the Mexican government by the people for whom that government has no compassion.

Even though I don't necessarily agree with your rationale in getting there, there's little to criticize about your solution beyond the financial implications.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

As for the actual MacArthur Park "Riot", as usual, it's going to end up being a big ***t sandwich that the taxpayer will end up picking up the bill for, once all the lawsuits are filed and -given the idiot politicians we have who represent the illegals more than they do citizens- paid out.

The LAPD is clueless. They were baited into their actions by a handful of hecklers who wanted them to overreact, so they could shift the focus off the low turnout, failed May Day rally, and onto the "aggressive and out of control" police department.

For their part, the clueless police dept. couldn't have done a better job of falling right into playing their role. Sadly, it's all part of a vicious circle- why would anyone of any integrity and intelligence even want to become a member of the LAPD, when our shadiest of shady politicians and spineless political hack police chiefs won't back them up when they actually do do their jobs? So it's a dept. with a lot of boneheads in charge, as the best cops probably go elsewhere long before reaching higher ranks.

Now, once again, rather than the focus being on the fact that illegal aliens are taking over neighborhoods and overtaxing social services, schools, hospitals, housing, etc. (all by the way, at the TOTAL expense of the poorest of Americans who can least afford it) the focus is now on, "how can the police,the city, the taxpayers be punished and sued enough to placate the offended demonstrators?"

Given that our mayor had to cut short his latest visit to Mexico (where else would the voters and taxpayers of an American City expect a mayor they elected to be doing his job?) in order to come back and encourage people, legal or not (his words) to come forth and sue, it'll be a slam dunk that he can use this to the advantage of those who favor all out open borders.

I'd like to say, hey, only in crazy third world Los Angeles, but I believe that once the full weight of the current amnesty trend kicks in, there will be a lot more of this country than most people think that will be in the same boat. If people think 20 million or so illegals is a problem now, wait until it's double that number.

[Orion27]

Look here: It's Fred Thompson at the Lincoln Club. Let the critiques of Thompson start here.
Powerful stuff, and why Thompson is so formidable. Scroll down once here:
Power Line

[OldManMac]

CH. It's not often that someone I generally don't agree with hits the nail right on the head, but you did!

We ain't seen nothin' yet, folks!

[kobi]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

As for the actual MacArthur Park "Riot", as usual, it's going to end up being a big ***t sandwich that the taxpayer will end up picking up the bill for, once all the lawsuits are filed and -given the idiot politicians we have who represent the illegals more than they do citizens- paid out.

The LAPD is clueless. They were baited into their actions by a handful of hecklers who wanted them to overreact, so they could shift the focus off the low turnout, failed May Day rally, and onto the "aggressive and out of control" police department.

For their part, the clueless police dept. couldn't have done a better job of falling right into playing their role. Sadly, it's all part of a vicious circle- why would anyone of any integrity and intelligence even want to become a member of the LAPD, when our shadiest of shady politicians and spineless political hack police chiefs won't back them up when they actually do do their jobs? So it's a dept. with a lot of boneheads in charge, as the best cops probably go elsewhere long before reaching higher ranks.

Now, once again, rather than the focus being on the fact that illegal aliens are taking over neighborhoods and overtaxing social services, schools, hospitals, housing, etc. (all by the way, at the TOTAL expense of the poorest of Americans who can least afford it) the focus is now on, "how can the police,the city, the taxpayers be punished and sued enough to placate the offended demonstrators?"

Given that our mayor had to cut short his latest visit to Mexico (where else would the voters and taxpayers of an American City expect a mayor they elected to be doing his job?) in order to come back and encourage people, legal or not (his words) to come forth and sue, it'll be a slam dunk that he can use this to the advantage of those who favor all out open borders.

I'd like to say, hey, only in crazy third world Los Angeles, but I believe that once the full weight of the current amnesty trend kicks in, there will be a lot more of this country than most people think that will be in the same boat. If people think 20 million or so illegals is a problem now, wait until it's double that number.

I couldn't agree more.

Living in Texas I have seen my city (Dallas) turn into the front lines of the immigration debate. There is a suburb of Dallas called Farmer's Branch that is fighting back against illegal immigration. There is a special election that is going on right now about a new law that would make make it illegal for landlords to rent to illegal/undocumented immigrants. We'll know the results on Sat 12th. It will pass because of the 40% hispanic population, only 10% are registered to vote. Hopefully the City of Farmer's Branch's new law will become a model for other cities to follow.

Here's a link about the Farmer's Branch election: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...e/4759898.html

I agree that the rule of law needs to be upheld. And no I don't have a answer as to what to do with the illegals that are currently here? Just short of rounding them up and doing mass deportations, does anybody??

One thing that we could do is to stop illegals from being able to send money via wire transfers, money orders down to Mexico or other countries. Why is this allowed anyway? Let's secure the borders and keep the dollar in the US.

I also hate how this issue is turned into a racial issue. If your for the enforcement of the rule of law or securing the borders then your automatically a racist. That is such BS. Hispanics aren't the only ethnic group that are illegal in this country, sure Hispanics have the greatest numbers of illegals here, but they aren't the only ones.

I also hate the fact that here in Texas you have to know Spanish in order to get anything done. It's sad really, but you cannot get hired for a job unless you know Spanish. Billboards are in Spanish, I get calls from tele-martketers in Spanish. In certain parts of the city you have Spanish/English stop and street signs. Spanish is now being taught to kindergardeners. If you call the City of Dallas main phone # you have to press 1 for you to get instructions in English. How crazy is that?

I'm sorry but if I moved to Germany, I would have to learn German in order to communicate. Why can't it be that way here? If your in the United States, especially illegally then at the very least you should at least learn the language.

When my great grandfather legally immigrated from Czechoslovakia in the early 1900's, there were two things that he wanted to do: learn the language, and vote. He did both and lived a good life because of it.

Sorry for the rant, but it's a issue that is very close to my heart.

[subego]

Originally Posted by kobi 

Spanish is now being taught to kindergardeners.

They were teaching me Spanish in kindergarden in the 70's.

Damn hippies!

Originally Posted by kobi 

If you call the City of Dallas main phone # you have to press 1 for you to get instructions in English. How crazy is that?

To be fair, for automatic phone systems that default to English, you're forced to listen to "para el Español, prensa dos" before you get to the main menu. If they let it be a choice, you can just bang through that immediately.

The asshole in me would say that the last option on the main menu should be the option for Spanish, but doing this in our current bilingual friendly environment would only serve to **** people over rather than fix the problem. If our overall attitude was different (and had the policy to back it up) something like that would be a more reasonable option.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by kobi 

Sorry for the rant, but it's a issue that is very close to my heart.

Don't apologize for your beliefs. As a legal immigrant myself, I couldn't agree with you more!

[kobi]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

Don't apologize for your beliefs. As a legal immigrant myself, I couldn't agree with you more!

Thanks for the support. Hopefully it's a problem that can get figured out soon. I was afraid I was going to be labeled as a racist, when that is the last thing that I am.

I intern at a law firm and this is the hot topic of discussion right now. Were already seeing the lawsuits popping up because of the Farmer's Branch vote. It's going to a crazy storm to weather.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by kobi 

Spanish is now being taught to kindergardeners.

That reminds me of a joke:

What do you call someone who knows three languages? Trilingual.
What do you call someone who knows two languages? Bilingual.
What do you call someone who knows only one language? American.

I see nothing wrong with raising kids bilingual.

[peeb]

Take a look at Spain and Portugal in the 1970s - there was a lot of worry about migration to northern Europe - basically, integration in the EU improved the domestic economy - the right to migrate within Europe had the result of decreasing Spanish and Portuguese migration north - now the flow is the other way - northern Europeans migrating to Spain etc.
Bring Mexico into the room economically, and the migration pressure will stop,

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by kobi 

Thanks for the support. Hopefully it's a problem that can get figured out soon. I was afraid I was going to be labeled as a racist, when that is the last thing that I am.

The people that blindly use the charge of "racism" in this debate, do so when they've run out of a legitimate argument, or right from the start if they never had a real argument to begin with. Also, the very fact that you had to even consider that merely for pointing something out that needs to be talked about, illustrates perfectly how effective that gutless tactic is.

Any rate, I hadn't heard about the Farmer's Branch election, thanks for sharing that. It'll be interesting to see how that goes down.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Take a look at Spain and Portugal in the 1970s - there was a lot of worry about migration to northern Europe - basically, integration in the EU improved the domestic economy - the right to migrate within Europe had the result of decreasing Spanish and Portuguese migration north - now the flow is the other way - northern Europeans migrating to Spain etc.
Bring Mexico into the room economically, and the migration pressure will stop,

That's the problem, we can't really. Their government is corrupt and siphons off a ton of money, then hands out "How to jump the fence" pamphlets. Then their most dedicated workers flee the country.

See a problem?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by kobi 

I'm sorry but if I moved to Germany, I would have to learn German in order to communicate.

I don't disagree with the basics of what you're saying, but did want to note that if you moved here, you'd find that the majority of people actually speak pretty good English.

Of course, it's appreciated if residents (or tourists) make an effort to communicate in German.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

That's the problem, we can't really. Their government is corrupt and siphons off a ton of money, then hands out "How to jump the fence" pamphlets. Then their most dedicated workers flee the country.

See a problem?

Have you ever been to Mexico? Yes, there is corruption, but the same is true of most countries with low income levels. It's a symptom, not a cause. Petty corruption is one of the best income strategies in much of the developing world. Increase trade opportunities, lower barriers to movement of labor and capital, and corruption will become less appealing over the long term as easier ways to make money come on line.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Have you ever been to Mexico?

I would ask, have you? Every argument I see that paints Mexico as a "poor country" makes me suspect the poster actually hasn't been, or has only seen Club Med commercials. Mexico is one of the richest nations on earth, usually ranking just below Canada. (Currently, I think it's #13 in the world, or thereabouts).

Bill Gates is about to be supplanted as the world's richest man by Mexican billionaire, Carlos Slim. He's part of a Mexican ruling class that has enormous wealth. The problem in Mexico, as King Bob correctly stated, isn't anywhere near as simple as bumper-sticker platitudes about how "we" somehow have to do anything for Mexico's economy, or just give Mexico more money (which, basically translates to: give Mexico's insanely wealthy ruling class more money.)

Mexico as a nation is literally swimming in wealth and money. It's economy in terms of actual money and profit, ranks it among the highest in the world. It has natural resources and built-in tourism and other economies that are the envy of most of the world. This fact, that so few people seem to grasp, is exactly why it's even more infuriating, this notion that Americans must foot the bill for one of the richest nation's problems, at the expense of own.

The problem is just what was pointed out- the VAST corruption in Mexico that keeps the nation's true wealth from reaching the hands of the citizens. It's concentrated ONLY in the hands of the powerful few. Don't kid yourself for a minute that this hasn't been planned, orchestrated and right up to present carefully protected by those who benefit from it, the ruling class. That's NOT a problem anyone can just throw money at- who do you think is set up to catch that money?

People need to drop the silly bumper-stickers that this is somehow yet another thing for Americans to fix. The solution needs to come from within Mexico. The people that are encouraged to flee Mexico ( rather than "burden" Mexico's ultra-wealthy elite with the task of actually not stealing all the nation's wealth, and then paying for their own social needs) actually need to be encouraged to stay in Mexico, and make themselves counted there. All of these people together need to be the voices and the true power that brings about change.

And "ohh boo hoo," if that won't be an "easy" task. Americans have already fought a Civil War and Civil Rights movements in this country that weren't easy tasks either- but notice, people didn't just flee those battles and pawn them off on someone else's country either.

So long as Americans willingly allow the pressure valve to be open, and allow the unwanted of Mexico to become wards of our country rather than voices for change in their own, then the fatcats of Mexico will just kick back, get richer and fatter, while the American taxpayer foots the bill for them.

I guess if you're of the mindset that we don't have enough problems of our own to take care of, that we have no poor CITIZENS of our own that should come first with whatever we do for them, BEFORE we start paying for the poor of the rest of the world ahead of them, and that the US taxpayer is nothing more than the defacto welfare system that poor, poor, pitiful Mexican billionaires in one of the world's richest countries shouldn't have the burden of paying for themselves, then you're in favor of open borders and ignoring our immigration laws.

But the rest of us, think that just maybe Americans should use our money, land and resources to take care of a few of our OWN problems first.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

I would ask, have you? Every argument I see that paints Mexico as a "poor country" makes me suspect the poster actually hasn't been, or has only seen Club Med commercials. Mexico is one of the richest nations on earth, usually ranking just below Canada. (Currently, I think it's #13 in the world, or thereabouts).

Let me just stop you right there. The measure of wealth you are using looks like per capita gdp. By that measure, yes, it's a wealthy country, because you have taken the total wealth, divided by the population, and come up with a high number. But of course, as you know, that wealth is not distributed that way. A very small number of people control nearly all the wealth, much of the population is poor, with no prospect of getting richer, which is why they are prepared to leave their home and family and risk their lives to earn below minimum wage in the US.

I am not suggesting giving money to Mexico, but opening up both countries to flows of capital and labor. Capitalism, if you will.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Let me just stop you right there. The measure of wealth you are using looks like per capita gdp. By that measure, yes, it's a wealthy country, because you have taken the total wealth, divided by the population, and come up with a high number. But of course, as you know, that wealth is not distributed that way. A very small number of people control nearly all the wealth, much of the population is poor, with no prospect of getting richer, which is why they are prepared to leave their home and family and risk their lives to earn below minimum wage in the US.

You should read all of a post before you "stop right there" and don't actually read what was said. The problem in Mexico is EXACTLY the fact that the wealth is in the hands of the ruling class (exactly what I said) and yet, that fact DOES NOT make Mexico a "poor country" as people try and argue.

Mexico's problems, quite simply, are not in any way actually based on a lack of money, or resources, but a total and complete INTERNAL failure to utilize the vast resources and wealth the nation actually DOES have. I'll say it again for those that are still not grasping: MEXICO IS NOT A POOR COUNTRY, and I for one and tired of us treating it that way.

I am not suggesting giving money to Mexico, but opening up both countries to flows of capital and labor. Capitalism, if you will.

This is the bumper-sticker level non-argument nonsense that I'm talking about. The only thing that will "open up" Mexico to more Capitalism that actually benefits the common citizens, and not just lines the pockets even more of people like Carlos Slim, will ONLY happen when the people of Mexico rise up and take back the power and control over resources that's been taken from them by Mexico's ruling class.

Here's a hint: allowing Mexico's ruling class to EXPORT their social ills to America so that our taxpayers and municipalities pay for the burden, not them, moves us all in directly the OPPOSITE direction of reform in Mexico, and in the OPPOSITE direction of progress in either country. The open borders crowd is in favor of preserving the status quo of Mexico's ruling class, while the net effect of 20-30 million plus people shifted to America only serves to lower the standard of living in our country, as well as Mexico.

Right now, currently, the poorest of Americans must shoulder the burden of THEIR neighborhoods, social services, hospitals, schools, jobs etc. being flooded with illegal aliens, unless of course people are somehow imagining that illegals are over-running places like Beverly Hills and Malibu, rather than the poorer neighborhoods.

It's a sham, that too many Americans are willingly allowing to be perpetrated on them, and it's aided by the wrongheaded belief that we are dealing with a "poor country", which shouldn't be expected to take care of its own social problems, which is absolute nonsense. Americans need to start DEMANDING that one of the worlds richest nations start acting like it, and start footing the bill (which it very much CAN afford) for it's own social ills.

[peeb]

You are not making any sense. How exactly would allowing free movement of capital and labor not help? It would remove the grip that the ruling class has on the economy. Your approach has been shown time and time again not to work. Opening up countries to trade and exchange of money and labor and ideas has been shown to work. Fences have been shown not to.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by peeb 

You are not making any sense. How exactly would allowing free movement of capital and labor not help?

Once more, you're just spouting a bunch of bumper-sticker slogans that have nothing to do with the actual situation.

The problem within Mexico doesn't involve more movement of capital to the same hands it always moves to, and certainly doesn't involve "moving labor" which is just a bumper-sticker slogan for pawning off the burden of paying for Mexico's social ills on the United States.

It would remove the grip that the ruling class has on the economy.

No, and this is as ignorant as believing that merely having more trade with the segregationist South would have somehow magically improved the lives of black people, not fighting the Civil Rights movement. It simply makes no sense, because the core of the problem isn't simply "Just have more trade!" with the same corrupt and horribly broken system. Yes, of course- when people control all the wealth, they somehow MAGICALLY give that up when you make them EVEN RICHER!

That's merely your bumper-sticker mentality that would make you even think such a silly notion. Adding more to the coffers of Mexico's ruling class while exporting more of their poor to the US does NOTHING to solve the core problem: Mexico's corruption. In fact, it increases it.

Your approach has been shown time and time again not to work.

Nations actually following the rule of law, and expecting other nations to obey border and immigration rules has been shown not to work? Only in the warped imaginations of you open-borders types. In reality, adherence to rule of law is actually the ONLY thing that works, and most nations around the globe that are successful have the concept of it.

Opening up countries to trade and exchange of money blah blah...

Once again, not the issue, and nothing to do with the core problem that needs to be dealt with first- by Mexicans themselves.

[peeb]

Thanks for playing, I think we live on different planets.

[beatbackbeaners]

I live in Los Angeles and was raised here. The area has become a nonwhite Paradise of Hispanic do-what-you-want behavior. If your car gets hit, they get caught working under the table, etc., they react with whitey can't do a thing activism. Rents, cost of living, and jobs are out of control.

Why hold a riot when your cause is already in the news? Because you want to become even more militant and bully American citizens into shrugging and letting them have a free rise. The home market took off because people couldn't get away from illegal immigrants no matter where they moved and how upscale they got. Why pay taxes when my neighbor gets to live rent free in a social security paid apartment for his 3 brats?

Mexicans don't have a "share" in the American economy except the one they participate in as mexican citizens. But immigrants coming here illegally use squatters menatlity and numbers to confuse and tamp down police efforts. The media in Los Angeles is pulling down its pants and bending over for Latino causes.

[OldManMac]

Here's an idea I've never heard of before, and I'm all for it. Refuse to rent to illegal migrants.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...print/asection

[unixfool]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

So basically illegal immigrants are making this country fat.

No, just McDonalds

As my momma used to say, "two wrongs don't make a right".

[unixfool]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I agree about securing the border. But if there's any language problem in the US, it's not that English isn't used enough, it's that too many Americans speak only English.

I totally disagree here. The fact that I only know English doesn't mean I don't do my part. I'm a military veteran...I've done my part and then some. I consider myself a very decent representative to the U.S., mingling and discussing world views with citizens of Japan, ROK, Saudi Arabia, Germany, and Haiti. I've even tutored conversational English. I've discussed culture also. While I may not be able to speak any other language but English, there are still ways for the average American to contribute to the U.S. cause and not be a bigot.

My wife is a naturalized citizen and knows three different languages. She went through the citizenship process as millions of others have, and she is quite shocked when she sees these protests on TV, as she did the right thing when she came to this country, yet others are trying to shortcut, whine and demand things that are privileges and not rights. If anything, she has a right to complain about this, moreso than the average citizen that was born here.

Things like this have the potential to cheapen the process. This needs to be nailed quickly. I also fail to see how this issue would be less apparent if most Americans spoke Spanish (or any other language). Why should I know Spanish as a second language? Oh yeah, so I could get a job...kinda sad. I feel bad for the average American located along the Mexican border. I lived in Los Angeles and tried many times to get jobs but wasn't hired because I didn't know Spanish...WTF...I'm so glad I now live in the D.C. area...it'll be a cold day in Hell before something like that happens at this location.

[beatbackbeaners]

How can an illegal have a criminal record? And when the property management companies are saturated with illegal aliens themselves, how can anti illegal renting be enforced? People around the United States and have no idea how bad the problem is.