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Police Taser Student at John Kerry Forum (Nuts)
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Sep 18, 2007, 12:06 PM
 
WTF? American cops are taser happy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaiWC...elated&search=
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 12:13 PM
 
So what ever happend to freedom of speech.. America the Beautiful.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 12:30 PM
 
That was pretty shocking, the police made the situation unnecessarily violent, just end the lecture early if it's getting out of hand?!
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 12:37 PM
 
Get used to it - the whole World is on its way to becoming a police state.
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Sep 18, 2007, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacinTommy View Post
So what ever happend to freedom of speech.. America the Beautiful.
So I gather 200 kV with a Taser is now to be routinely used in place of a hammerlock.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 01:02 PM
 
kent State.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacinTommy View Post
So what ever happend to freedom of speech.. America the Beautiful.
This has nothing to do with free speech. He was disturbing the peace. That is against the law. You can't just go into someone else's event and being completely disruptive to what's going on. The guy is welcome to go somewhere else and rant all he wants. Or, he is welcome to speak at Kerry's event under the rules of the event. He went well past the rules of the event. They tried to be polite, but he continued. They tried to shut off the microphone, but he continued. They tried to escort him out, but he continued. The guy is a dick. He has done this before.

Perhaps a tazer is a bit much, but he was disturbing the peace and he had ample opportunity to leave amicably.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by JonoMarshall View Post
That was pretty shocking
I'm sure it was!
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by wallinbl View Post
This has nothing to do with free speech. He was disturbing the peace. That is against the law. You can't just go into someone else's event and being completely disruptive to what's going on. The guy is welcome to go somewhere else and rant all he wants. Or, he is welcome to speak at Kerry's event under the rules of the event. He went well past the rules of the event. They tried to be polite, but he continued. They tried to shut off the microphone, but he continued. They tried to escort him out, but he continued. The guy is a dick. He has done this before.

Perhaps a tazer is a bit much, but he was disturbing the peace and he had ample opportunity to leave amicably.
Fact: The police used a Taser on an empassioned speaker at a political forum.

America is f**ked up.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Fact: The police used a Taser on an empassioned speaker at a political forum.
Fact: guy repeatedly resisted a reasonable escort out of the building and subsequently resisted arrest.

Tazer use was questionable, but don't act like the guy was just talking.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 01:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by wallinbl View Post
This has nothing to do with free speech. He was disturbing the peace. That is against the law. You can't just go into someone else's event and being completely disruptive to what's going on. The guy is welcome to go somewhere else and rant all he wants. Or, he is welcome to speak at Kerry's event under the rules of the event. He went well past the rules of the event. They tried to be polite, but he continued. They tried to shut off the microphone, but he continued. They tried to escort him out, but he continued. The guy is a dick. He has done this before.

Perhaps a tazer is a bit much, but he was disturbing the peace and he had ample opportunity to leave amicably.
Were there posted rules?
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 01:36 PM
 
The guy is a complete knobhead and the 'police' are obviously terrible at their job, but I don't think it is anything more sinister than that.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 01:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacinTommy View Post
Were there posted rules?
A number of people that were at the event were able to recall the rules of the event. If you've ever been to a "town hall" event like that, they go over the rules for asking questions at the beginning of the event.

Do you need a posted rule at a concert that states that you are not allowed to run around on the stage while the band is trying to play music?
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 02:33 PM
 
I'd be curious to see that organization's official rules of engagement for a tazer.

If "expedience in the case of a non-violent yet resistant perpetrator" is acceptable, I think that policy needs to be reexamined.

It has to be expedience right? I can't see any other reason that 4 cops couldn't have taken him down manually with enough patience.

Edit: anyone remember those two plainclothes Canadian beer police who took down the beer thief? It only took two of them, as he was an actual criminal, the guy was resisting for real, and in the process the cops were still able to fend off interference from a dozen different mall-goers.

In fact, the only thing they couldn't handle (likely because they didn't see it) was a mall-goer who starts jumping on the perp's ankle.
( Last edited by subego; Sep 18, 2007 at 03:09 PM. )
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacinTommy View Post
Were there posted rules?

Aren't they usually on the back of your ticket?

Don't they usually involve a "we can kick you out anytime" clause?
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 03:19 PM
 
Political forums are rife with loonies, but I don't think he could be said to be disturbing the peace until he got hauled off. Even then he wasn't really being violent, just resisting. You'd think 5 cops would be able to take him with out that level of violence. Hell, one or two bouncers at the bars I go to are more equipped to deal with this than those cops. I won't blame all cops for the tazering... but whoever decided to do that, and whoever had the ability to stop him and didn't, should be canned.

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Sep 18, 2007, 06:35 PM
 
A real world example of a liberal "coping" with new information.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 07:23 PM
 
I don't have any sympathy for this guy. He disrupted a forum and got dragged out. He resisted the guards so he got tazed. He's lucky: he deserved a baton to the noggin.

The entire scene was staged to incite a security reaction. His cinematographer was ready to capture it all.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Fact: The police used a Taser on an empassioned speaker at a political forum.

America is f**ked up.
Fact: you are easily suckered.
Originally Posted by Doofy
Get used to it - the whole World is on its way to becoming a police state.
Posting from your fallout shelter?
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 07:26 PM
 
Had that been Bush up on stage being heckled by a student, no tazing would have taken place.
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Sep 18, 2007, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I don't have any sympathy for this guy. He disrupted a forum and got dragged out. He resisted the guards so he got tazed. He's lucky: he deserved a baton to the noggin.

The entire scene was staged to incite a security reaction. His cinematographer was ready to capture it all.
I definitely agree that he staged this event to get notice.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 07:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Posting from your fallout shelter?
No, that's chock full of supplies to the point where I can't get in it. I'm up in the ivory tower at the moment.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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Sep 18, 2007, 09:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I don't have any sympathy for this guy. He disrupted a forum and got dragged out. He resisted the guards so he got tazed. He's lucky: he deserved a baton to the noggin.

The entire scene was staged to incite a security reaction. His cinematographer was ready to capture it all.
What did he do to deserve to be hit on the head? Because he was called upon to speak and he did? It was a forum where people were invited to ask questions. If you open a political forum and invite people to speak you have to expect that there will be some impassioned discourse. It's not like he ran up in front of everyone out of turn and started ranting. He was called upon by Kerry himself. It's not up to the police to decide what he should say--outside of threatening Kerry's life or something.

The police reaction was entirely inappropriate and way over the top. I also think its an isolated incident--most police have common sense and wouldn't act as unprofessionally as they did. I don't there will be any charges that will stick against the student. The cops involved are more likely to face charges. I guess we'll see.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 10:21 PM
 
I love it when cops tazer someone and then say "Get up!".

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Sep 18, 2007, 10:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post
I love it when cops tazer someone and then say "Get up!".

There was the tape of the L.A. cop shooting that guy and then telling him to STFU when he started screaming.
     
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Sep 18, 2007, 11:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zeeb View Post
What did he do to deserve to be hit on the head? Because he was called upon to speak and he did? It was a forum where people were invited to ask questions. If you open a political forum and invite people to speak you have to expect that there will be some impassioned discourse. It's not like he ran up in front of everyone out of turn and started ranting. He was called upon by Kerry himself. It's not up to the police to decide what he should say--outside of threatening Kerry's life or something.
.
Wrong.
He was asked to leave. Instead he kept on ranting. So he was being escorted out. As that happened he tore free from the officers grasp, pushed them back and stumbled backwards towards Kerry's podium.
At the point he pushed back the officers he was resisting arrest and it could legally be construed as assault. That is all he needed to be justifiably taken to the ground. Had this happened during Kerry's presidential campaign he would have been taken down much harder by Secret Service.

The content of the discourse is irrelevant. He could have been ranting about UFOs and Bigfoot. When you are asked to leave private property you no longer have any right to try and remain.

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Sep 18, 2007, 11:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
Wrong.
He was asked to leave. Instead he kept on ranting. So he was being escorted out. As that happened he tore free from the officers grasp, pushed them back and stumbled backwards towards Kerry's podium.
At the point he pushed back the officers he was resisting arrest and it could legally be construed as assault. That is all he needed to be justifiably taken to the ground. Had this happened during Kerry's presidential campaign he would have been taken down much harder by Secret Service.

The content of the discourse is irrelevant. He could have been ranting about UFOs and Bigfoot. When you are asked to leave private property you no longer have any right to try and remain.
Private property? Is the University of Florida a private school or a state school? If the answer is that it is a state school, I'm not sure it counts as private property--and my impression was that this forum was on campus. Nevertheless, even if it was conducted on private property this was an event that these students were invited to come to and speak at. The speaker, John Kerry himself offered to answer his question. Meanwhile, these idiots taser the guy. That's a brilliant thing to do considering this is an event with a former Presidential candidate and *someone* is likely to have a camera.

Just because a police officer orders you to do something doesn't mean you are *necessarily* obligated to comply. If an officer orders you to break the law or are themselves lawbreakers you are in fact obligated *not* to comply.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 12:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Had that been Bush up on stage being heckled by a student, no tazing would have taken place.
...because he would have been shot instead?

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Sep 19, 2007, 12:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by JonoMarshall View Post
That was pretty shocking, the police made the situation unnecessarily violent
Shocking indeed. I thought policemen were brave, noble men without a tendency towards aggression who would never dare to use unnecessary violence against an angry, unarmed, and physically non-threatening individual after all the training they receive.

I may have to reanalyze that assessment now. (I just made myself sad)...

The truth is, take away their guns and badges and a good portion of them are bullies and cowards not worth a damn.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 12:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Zeeb View Post
Private property? Is the University of Florida a private school or a state school? If the answer is that it is a state school, I'm not sure it counts as private property--and my impression was that this forum was on campus. Nevertheless, even if it was conducted on private property this was an event that these students were invited to come to and speak at. The speaker, John Kerry himself offered to answer his question. Meanwhile, these idiots taser the guy. That's a brilliant thing to do considering this is an event with a former Presidential candidate and *someone* is likely to have a camera.

Just because a police officer orders you to do something doesn't mean you are *necessarily* obligated to comply. If an officer orders you to break the law or are themselves lawbreakers you are in fact obligated *not* to comply.
wow reading that just made everyone lose IQ points

Individuals may not remain or enter any property owned by the state if they are not given permission to be there, break the terms by which they are granted access, or are asked to leave. If you go to your local park at midnight and there is a sign posted that it closes at sundown you are trespassing and can be charged with such.
Even though he was a current student he is only allowed to use facilities at the will and under the terms the administration or their representative set. This idiot was asked to leave. His right to be there and speak were terminated. The resulting actions that took place are the result of his refusal to leave the grounds and forcibly resist the individuals granted the right to remove him.

The rest of what you said didn't even make sense enough to answer.

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Sep 19, 2007, 01:00 AM
 
After watching the video from the Gainesville Sun (different view), I am not convinced the Campus police asked him to leave before they put their hands on him to force him to leave. His mike was cut and the women officer grabbed his arm almost immediately. Seems off to me.
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Sep 19, 2007, 10:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacinTommy View Post
So what ever happend to freedom of speech.. America the Beautiful.
I hope you aren't American.

I could excuse a foreigner from saying such a thing about such instance one time..
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
I hope you aren't American.

I could excuse a foreigner from saying such a thing about such instance one time..
Is there any sentence Kevin can't f**k up?
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by climber View Post
After watching the video from the Gainesville Sun (different view), I am not convinced the Campus police asked him to leave before they put their hands on him to force him to leave. His mike was cut and the women officer grabbed his arm almost immediately. Seems off to me.
Not sure what you saw, but clearly a woman steps up to him, and asks him to leave. Seems very polite. He immediately gets more shrill, launches into another tirade, and even states "He's been talking for two hours, I think I'm entitled to two minutes."

Right off the bat, if "two minutes" is beyond the allotted time given for asking questions (and I'd wager it was) then he completely announced his intention to break the rules.

Just another classic example of some batshit-insane lefty purposefully manufacturing his own problem, then trying to claim it was only due to political beliefs.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
wow reading that just made everyone lose IQ points

Individuals may not remain or enter any property owned by the state if they are not given permission to be there, break the terms by which they are granted access, or are asked to leave. If you go to your local park at midnight and there is a sign posted that it closes at sundown you are trespassing and can be charged with such.
Even though he was a current student he is only allowed to use facilities at the will and under the terms the administration or their representative set. This idiot was asked to leave. His right to be there and speak were terminated. The resulting actions that took place are the result of his refusal to leave the grounds and forcibly resist the individuals granted the right to remove him.

The rest of what you said didn't even make sense enough to answer.
I don't think you are an expert on what is public or private land, or what is allowable on either--though you seem to like to pretend to be an expert on a great many things. Let's assume you are correct however. Permission to be on this land and in this forum was granted by the open invitation to be there. Furthermore, the speaker continued to extend his permission for the student to remain.

You keep ignoring the fact that the speaker, John Kerry, did not ask him to leave. If anyone had the right to ask someone to leave at this event--he did. In fact, the speaker did the opposite and offered to continue the discussion with the student. (Therefore your assertion that permission was "revoked" is suspect) The student remained behind the mic and did not make threatening advances toward Kerry nor did he threaten him verbally. If Kerry tried to close off the discussion and the student remanined ranting, that would be a case where the police would be justified in asking him to leave and removing him (without a taser) if necessary.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zeeb View Post
I don't think you are an expert on what is public or private land, or what is allowable on either--though you seem to like to pretend to be an expert on a great many things. Let's assume you are correct however. Permission to be on this land and in this forum was granted by the open invitation to be there. Furthermore, the speaker continued to extend his permission for the student to remain.

You keep ignoring the fact that the speaker, John Kerry, did not ask him to leave. If anyone had the right to ask someone to leave at this event--he did. In fact, the speaker did the opposite and offered to continue the discussion with the student. (Therefore your assertion that permission was "revoked" is suspect) The student remained behind the mic and did not make threatening advances toward Kerry nor did he threaten him verbally. If Kerry tried to close off the discussion and the student remanined ranting, that would be a case where the police would be justified in asking him to leave and removing him (without a taser) if necessary.
Quick note here.
It may not be Kerry's choice when someone gets cut off if they need to be. Kerry's job is to stand a speak, answer questions, and do as he is told. If a behind the scenes person says, "Shut that kid up," first thing they did was shut off the mic, from there it escalated by the student not cooperating. If your mic is shut off then in this situation your time is up or your opinion (question) is no longer wanted. He choose to continue his rant (or story) beyond what was wanting to be allowed by the people in charge and him running around, jumping, throwing a fit was unneeded.

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Sep 19, 2007, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zeeb View Post
You keep ignoring the fact that the speaker, John Kerry, did not ask him to leave. If anyone had the right to ask someone to leave at this event--he did. In fact, the speaker did the opposite and offered to continue the discussion with the student. (Therefore your assertion that permission was "revoked" is suspect)
The event was not John Kerry's event - John Kerry was a guest of Accent. Representatives of Accent did ask him to leave. His permission was revoked. In fact, the event was over at the time that Meyer forced his way to the microphone.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 02:40 PM
 
He was told to shut up.

He didn't.

He threw a hissy-fit.

He got what was coming to him -- even telling the cops (when there were no cameras around) that they were just doing their job.

Why do we feel sorry for him?
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Sep 19, 2007, 02:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacinTommy View Post
So what ever happend to freedom of speech.. America the Beautiful.
IQ's dropped sharply on 9/11
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
IQs dropped sharply on 9/11.
Fixed for correct punctuation.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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Sep 19, 2007, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Fixed for correct punctuation.
Pluralization of an abbreviation is an acceptable use of an apostrophe.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by wallinbl View Post
Pluralization of an abbreviation is an acceptable use of an apostrophe.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
He was told to shut up.

He didn't.

He threw a hissy-fit.

He got what was coming to him -- even telling the cops (when there were no cameras around) that they were just doing their job.

Why do we feel sorry for him?

Pointing out unnecessary use of force isn't the same as feeling sorry for the guy.

Being a douche isn't grounds for getting tased.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 03:31 PM
 
But now we all have to debate where the line of "unnecessary force" is.

Ugh.

And yeah, being a douche is grounds for being tased.
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Sep 19, 2007, 03:45 PM
 
Two threads same topic?

Well, the police people were anything but professional, and it really makes me angry to see people acting like THAT.

Since i was asked in the other thread, i described how possibly well trained officers would have been able to deal with it:

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...2/#post3487350

Maybe i am arrogant, but really.... this show makes me quite unhappy.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
But now we all have to debate where the line of "unnecessary force" is.

Ugh.

And yeah, being a douche is grounds for being tased.

Is this really a borderline case? There were 5 cops on him, and he had been essentially non-violent.

The onus is on the cop to justify the escalation. What about that particular moment made the cop think "this could have been handled by us 10 seconds ago, but now it can't"?

I should also clarify that his non-violent resistance makes him a douche. Had he been violent, I would have used a different descriptor.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn View Post
Sorry, but Bob's wrong - his VCR example is actually a valid usage for an apostrophe. Check The American Heritage® Book of English Usage if you don't believe me.
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zeeb View Post
I don't think you are an expert on what is public or private land, or what is allowable on either-
As per the rest of the thread, you'd be wrong

Permission to be on this land and in this forum was granted by the open invitation to be there.
It would be conditional permission that can be revoked at any time.
Most universities who have speakers read a statement at the start of guest lectures stating the speaker's words and his opinions are his own and not those of the school furthermore they set the terms by which the Q&A works. If you violate those terms they tell you that you can be removed for disruptive behavior or at their discretion.
I am sure you didn't go to college much less attended the lecture series but at the 5 universities I have been to for such events this is standard protocol.

You keep ignoring the fact that the speaker, John Kerry, did not ask him to leave. If anyone had the right to ask someone to leave at this event--he did.
Totally wrong. Kerry had no power nor authority to grant or revoke his permission to be there. Kerry is there as a guest of the university and has no affiliation with the school. You made a stupid assumption.

At two point before the mic was turned off you can see one officer asking him to wrap up his questions. At the second point they tell him he was only allowed to ask one question per turn and that he has to stop, he responds he has 3 more questions and will not stop. The university reps charged with the authority to allow his right to be there revoked it and tried to remove him when he did not step away from the mic. That is the only thing that would matter in court.
( Last edited by Captain Obvious; Sep 19, 2007 at 05:38 PM. )

Barack Obama: Four more years of the Carter Presidency
     
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Sep 19, 2007, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by wallinbl View Post
Sorry, but Bob's wrong - his VCR example is actually a valid usage for an apostrophe. Check The American Heritage® Book of English Usage if you don't believe me.
In the same way that "Ain't no coffee in there" is correct, sure. Some people will accept that, but people will always accept the right way.
Chuck
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Sep 19, 2007, 06:15 PM
 
I'll have to look that up, but it seems wrong to me in every sense of logic. "VCRs" looks better and makes more sense. I can't imagine what makes an abbreviation different from other words.

edit: I call B.S. There is not a single reference source that I have found online that contradicts this truth:
"Never use an apostrophe in front of the -s ending that forms a plural noun (The sign says Fine Meal’s), in front of the -s that forms a third-person singular present tense verb (Accused Plead’s Insanity), or before the -s in an absolute possessive pronoun (This hat is her’s). "
APOSTROPHE 2. The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993

Also:
Apostrophe Protection Society
Apostrophe usage: when do I use the stupid thing's?
( Last edited by Silky Voice of The Gorn; Sep 19, 2007 at 07:11 PM. )
     
 
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