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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > 41 days in Iraq, or 10 million children insured? Hmmm.... which will I choose?

41 days in Iraq, or 10 million children insured? Hmmm.... which will I choose? (Page 5)
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Oct 7, 2007, 08:04 PM
 
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Oct 7, 2007, 08:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I thought if it was for the children it must be good.

So, do you support raising taxes to pay for the war?
     
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Oct 7, 2007, 10:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, do you support raising taxes to pay for the war?
Let's try controlling discretionary (entitlement) spending by ending baseline budgeting.
Citizens Against Government Waste: Baseline Reform
BASELINE BUDGETING

"Baseline budgeting" is one of those Washington terms that sounds very dry and boring. In reality, baseline budgeting is one of the most sinister ways that politicians claim to cut spending when they are actually increasing spending.

Seven Reforms to Balance the Budget
Table 1 shows a 16k+% increase in health spend from 1955 to 1995, while over the same years showing only an 11.9% growth in Defense spending

5.) An End to Baseline Budgeting

A 4.5 percent increase in spending on the School Lunch Program is a budget increase, not a budget "cut." Baseline budgeting is a fraud. Lee Iacocca once stated that if business used baseline budgeting the way Congress does, "they'd throw us in jail."

It's time to end the false and misleading advertising in the budget. Congress should be required to use this year's actual spending total as the baseline for the next year's budget. If Congress spends more next year than it did in the current year, it is increasing the budget; if it spends less, it is cutting it.
If a department spend $100B and is budgeted for 200B, next year's budget should be $100B+ a % above the inflation rate, instead it is $200B+a % above the inflation rate.
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Oct 7, 2007, 10:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Let's try controlling discretionary (entitlement) spending by ending baseline budgeting.

Sorry children of Iraq. You have to wait until we fix our **** first.
     
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Oct 7, 2007, 11:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Sorry children of Iraq. You have to wait until we fix our **** first.
Eliminating baseline budgeting will a big step towards that.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 01:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Eliminating baseline budgeting will a big step towards that.

They sort of need the help yesterday.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 01:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
There's nothing to suggest that war in Iraq would've been less costly had it been started two years later, or two years from now, or under a (D).
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Oct 8, 2007, 02:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
They weren't insults directed at you. If you were old enough to have been literate by 1998...
Of course they were insults directed at me. And now you say that I am "lying about what emoticon you're using to do it"? Please, grow up. BTW, "smiley" is a generic term for "emoticon."

There's nothing to suggest that war in Iraq would've been less costly had it been started two years later, or two years from now, or under a (D).
Once more, there's nothing to suggest the war would ever have started. You need to stop trying to justify your mistakes or talk around them. Stop trying to argue that your mistake wasn't so bad, because two, four or ten years later somebody else would have made the same mistakes (!). I can't say I knew what Iraq would look like in 2009 back in 2002-2003. But I did know then that a war would be a mistake. You on the other hand could not foresee the next few months even (as history has proven), but are now claiming the prescience to see the next six years? You didn't have it then, and you don't have it now.

Rather, admit your mistakes, take responsibility (for the hundreds of thousands of lives lost), and try to figure out what you are going to do to get out of this mess. I guess it is hard for you to admit such a major mistake in judgement, and it's a lot on your conscience, but if you can't admit your mistakes then you can't fix their causes.

This applies to the administration as well. I don't care if you take my advice or not, but they should heed it. We went into Iraq without any planning, and see what happened? Now, the same people who failed to plan for entering Iraq are failing to plan to leave it. The only current plan is to "stay the course" until the next president takes office. That's a plan for disaster.
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Oct 8, 2007, 06:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by tie View Post
Of course they were insults directed at me. And now you say that I am "lying about what emoticon you're using to do it"? Please, grow up. BTW, "smiley" is a generic term for "emoticon."
It was an "if-then" statement to point out failures in your arguments. Different emoticons mean different things. If you'd like to be treated with respect, be respectable.

Once more, there's nothing to suggest the war would ever have started. You need to stop trying to justify your mistakes or talk around them. Stop trying to argue that your mistake wasn't so bad, because two, four or ten years later somebody else would have made the same mistakes (!). I can't say I knew what Iraq would look like in 2009 back in 2002-2003. But I did know then that a war would be a mistake. You on the other hand could not foresee the next few months even (as history has proven), but are now claiming the prescience to see the next six years? You didn't have it then, and you don't have it now.
You don't know what you're talking about. You've been presented with a wealth of data to affirm the claim that war with Iraq was inevitable, but all you've given is; "you're wrong." Okay tie, ya got me. Your resolve in providing absolutely nothing is too daunting for me. You win.

Rather, admit your mistakes, take responsibility (for the hundreds of thousands of lives lost), and try to figure out what you are going to do to get out of this mess. I guess it is hard for you to admit such a major mistake in judgement, and it's a lot on your conscience, but if you can't admit your mistakes then you can't fix their causes.
As long as you take credit for the hundreds of thousands of lives lost due to multiple years of lobbing missiles and 12 years of failed economic sanctions and Resolutions. Fair enough? ... and you're telling me to grow up.

This applies to the administration as well. I don't care if you take my advice or not, but they should heed it. We went into Iraq without any planning, and see what happened? Now, the same people who failed to plan for entering Iraq are failing to plan to leave it. The only current plan is to "stay the course" until the next president takes office. That's a plan for disaster.
- Hate is not a family value
- Goddess Bless
- Stay the Course

Seeing as you fail to consider any implications of continued inaction, I'm not sure your definition of "disaster" is worth anything. The prior plan was 12 years of "stay the course" and all evidence suggested it was failing. You've admitted as much. Action in Iraq was the change in course. Got any more meaningless bumper stickers to quote from tie or are you all out now?
ebuddy
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 10:15 AM
 
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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I believe it is peace for our time.
Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, 1938
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
George Santayana

She's a black magic woman.
Carlos Santana



So, as I was asking and you ignored, you support the children/soldiers/war as long as you don't actually pay anything extra for it?




Edit: but let me guess, you have a 1,000 more goofy JPEGS you're willing to sacrifice.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 11:44 AM
 
Yep - Chongo, you've ignored the question and spouted incoherent nonsense - again - do you support raising taxes to pay for the war?
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 01:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
Yep - Chongo, you've ignored the question and spouted incoherent nonsense - again - do you support raising taxes to pay for the war?
No, I do not support raising taxes. I support eliminating all income tax and the IRS and replacing it with the Fair Tax to support the War on Terror. Getting rid of the IRS will save billions of dollars that could be put towards your beloved socialized medicine programs. It will also take away a tool that the Clinton's have used to go after their opponents, and will again if Shrilary gets elected.

I also oppose reintroducing the draft. The Army and Marine Corp have not had any problems meeting their recruitment goals, even though the recruits know they will most likely be going to Iraq. That is what irks many on the left, that people are still enlisting with the War on Terror going on. I have a nephew, his sister, and her husband in the Army, all in Iraq, and they joined after the war started.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
No, I do not support raising taxes. I support eliminating all income tax ... yadda yadda yadda.
And I support everybody getting a free pony, but that isn't going to happen either. In the meantime, given that we have the tax system that we have, and will do for some time, do you support raising taxes to pay for the war?
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 02:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Edit: but let me guess, you have a 1,000 more goofy JPEGS you're willing to sacrifice.
You like huh? well here's a few more.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Getting rid of the IRS will save billions of dollars that could be put towards your beloved socialized medicine programs.


I know that this was tangential to your main point, but this is becoming a minor peeve of mine. The term "socialized medicine" is being misused. Public/private hybrid health systems are not the same as socialized systems, and I don't know of any health care system that is purely public.

A lot of politicians are trying to invoke red scare by using the term "socialized" this way. It needs to stop.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 02:53 PM
 
How will you scare the voters if you don't lie about what the opposition is proposing?
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
You don't know what you're talking about. You've been presented with a wealth of data to affirm the claim that war with Iraq was inevitable, but all you've given is; "you're wrong."
Sorry, I haven't seen the wealth of data. It doesn't exist. And as I said in my last post, you couldn't even predict the next six months properly; don't pretend to know what would happen six years in the future.

As long as you take credit for the hundreds of thousands of lives lost due to multiple years of lobbing missiles and 12 years of failed economic sanctions and Resolutions. Fair enough? ... and you're telling me to grow up.
I don't get it. You'll take responsibility conditioned on my taking responsibility? What does that even mean? It sounds to me like you will refuse to take responsibility no matter what the consequences of your mistakes are. Is this some kind of, "I know you are but what am I" thing?

The prior plan was 12 years of "stay the course" and all evidence suggested it was failing. You've admitted as much. Action in Iraq was the change in course.
What is this? I have not admitted as much. I said that the prior situation was "unsatisfactory." But there are many unsatisfactory situations in the world today. Action in Iraq has made the situation much more unsatisfactory. It has harmed our national interest, and as I have said several times, is costing much, much more money.
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Oct 8, 2007, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
And I support everybody getting a free pony, but that isn't going to happen either. In the meantime, given that we have the tax system that we have, and will do for some time, do you support raising taxes to pay for the war?
I think Chongo's position is that we should sell T-shirts to pay for the war.
The 4 o'clock train will be a bus.
It will depart at 20 minutes to 5.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
No, I do not support raising taxes. I support eliminating all income tax and the IRS and replacing it with the Fair Tax to support the War on Terror.

Well then here's a JPEG for you:



Caption: waiting for the Fair Tax.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 05:07 PM
 


No caption needed
( Last edited by Chongo; Oct 8, 2007 at 05:21 PM. )
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by tie View Post
I think Chongo's position is that we should sell T-shirts to pay for the war.
and have bake sales to reduce the deficit
( Last edited by Chongo; Oct 8, 2007 at 05:22 PM. )
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 05:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I know that this was tangential to your main point, but this is becoming a minor peeve of mine. The term "socialized medicine" is being misused. Public/private hybrid health systems are not the same as socialized systems, and I don't know of any health care system that is purely public.

A lot of politicians are trying to invoke red scare by using the term "socialized" this way. It needs to stop.
Definition of socialized medicine - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
socialized medicine
One entry found for socialized medicine.
Main Entry: socialized medicine
Function: noun
: medical and hospital services for the members of a class or population administered by an organized group (as a state agency) and paid for from funds obtained usually by assessments, philanthropy, or taxation

WorldNetDaily: Socialized medicine in U.S. is inevitable!
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Oct 8, 2007, 05:50 PM
 
The actual lesson being missed is that Both welfare/kiddie insurance and War have been horridly mismanaged. We wouldn't NEED to have gone to war if the US Intel gathering hadn't been damaged for political reasons. Again, why go to politicians and the government for something that will end up mismanaged, corrupted and cost 10 times more than they are lying to us about now? As long as trial lawyers are allowed to influence politics, and protect their "phoney-Baloney" jobs, the overall health care system will cost waaaaay more than it should.

Haven't we learned NOT to trust any politician under any circumstance?
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 05:50 PM
 
Chongo:

Canada's health care system is a publicly funded health care system, with most services provided by private entities. While the Canadian government calls it a "public system,[1][2], it is not "socialized medicine".[3] Studies have found Canada's health outcomes about equal to other industrial countries.[4]
Health care in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A socialized system implies that doctors are state employees. I have heard no proposal to make doctors state employees. In Canada, doctors are private entities.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
A socialized system implies that doctors are state employees. I have heard no proposal to make doctors state employees. In Canada, doctors are private entities.

Uhh, you might want to click on that little [3].

Canada isn't even mentioned in the souce.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 06:01 PM
 
The cost of a previous war on terror:



but I suppose that was at a time when we actually had balls.
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Oct 8, 2007, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Uhh, you might want to click on that little [3].

Canada isn't even mentioned in the souce.
I'm not sure why that particular article is referenced, but read the quoted Wikipedia text, read Chongo's definition:

medical and hospital services for the members of a class or population administered by an organized group
Health care is not administered by an organized group in Canada, it is administered by private doctors.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 06:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
The actual lesson being missed is that Both welfare/kiddie insurance and War have been horridly mismanaged. We wouldn't NEED to have gone to war if the US Intel gathering hadn't been damaged for political reasons. Again, why go to politicians and the government for something that will end up mismanaged, corrupted and cost 10 times more than they are lying to us about now? As long as trial lawyers are allowed to influence politics, and protect their "phoney-Baloney" jobs, the overall health care system will cost waaaaay more than it should.

Haven't we learned NOT to trust any politician under any circumstance?
But, but, they are doing such a wonderful job of running the post office
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Oct 8, 2007, 06:23 PM
 
medical and hospital services for the members of a class or population administered by an organized group
Health care is not administered by an organized group in Canada, it is administered by private doctors.
and paid for from funds obtained usually by assessments, philanthropy, or taxation

Philanthropy would even cover my donations to the Salvation Army for their medical services, but that is voluntary. Taxation and assessments are not and are nothing more than a form of wealth redistribution . My county property tax has a section for the county health care system.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 06:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Health care is not administered by an organized group in Canada, it is administered by private doctors.

Administer:

1 : to manage or supervise the execution, use, or conduct of


You're thinking:

2 a : to mete out : DISPENSE... c : to give remedially
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
How will you scare the voters if you don't lie about what the opposition is proposing?
Like the one about conservatives wanting to take Social Security away from it recipients? I have heard that one (among many others) from the demoncrats every election cycle for the past 30 years.
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Oct 8, 2007, 06:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
But, but, they are doing such a wonderful job of running the post office
BadKosh, the privatized US system is expensive in every way, literally... I suggest you look into what these costs are.

As far as this post office dig, the bottom line is that any service is only as good as the resources available to it. No matter who is paying your bills, if you have a crappy staff, lack of oversight/management, or little funding, your service will suck. We could improve the post office, but this would require an expense - even if it is just a one-time expense of researching and implementing ways to improve it. There is nothing inherent about who is paying the bills that makes a service like this good or bad.

The average doctor salary in Canada is over $200,000. They are the wealthy elite in society, just like they are here.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 07:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
and paid for from funds obtained usually by assessments, philanthropy, or taxation

Philanthropy would even cover my donations to the Salvation Army for their medical services, but that is voluntary. Taxation and assessments are not and are nothing more than a form of wealth redistribution . My county property tax has a section for the county health care system.
It is only paid for by taxes if the service you provide is covered under Medicare, Canada's health care system. Did you read the entire WIkipedia page?
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 07:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Administer:

1 : to manage or supervise the execution, use, or conduct of


You're thinking:

2 a : to mete out : DISPENSE... c : to give remedially

Okay, but even then the socialized medicine definition only applies if *all* health care services are administered by the government. They aren't in Canada, only 70% of services are.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Okay, but even then the socialized medicine definition only applies if *all* health care services are administered by the government. They aren't in Canada, only 70% of services are.

I would say that the term "socialized medicine" applies to the 70% that is.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 07:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I would say that the term "socialized medicine" applies to the 70% that is.
So what is the difference between socialized medicine and public health?
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 07:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by tie View Post
I don't get it. You'll take responsibility conditioned on my taking responsibility? What does that even mean? It sounds to me like you will refuse to take responsibility no matter what the consequences of your mistakes are. Is this some kind of, "I know you are but what am I" thing?
Was that the mindset you were in when you posed the initial question? Tell ya what, if you want to take responsibility for the hundreds of thousands of deaths due to 12 years of economic sanctions and failed UN Resolutions, I'll take responsibility for the deaths due to our action in Iraq. If it was fair of you to ask this type of question, it is fair for me to answer contingent upon your acceptance of the same terms. Fair enough?

Do you insist on this style of argumentation tie? Is this really all you've got? Seriously, I need to know.
ebuddy
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 07:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So what is the difference between socialized medicine and public health?
Socialized medicine takes longer to install and occurs in steps beginning with public health.
ebuddy
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 07:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So what is the difference between socialized medicine and public health?

Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Goose egg.

Per Chongo's definition.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 07:57 PM
 
Socialist policy (any socialist policy) is miserable and awful.

You can liken it very much to chemotherapy or radiation treatments.

There are some things that only those kind of treatments can cure, and woe betides the person who doesn't take them if there is no other option.

That doesn't make them any less miserable and awful.

You haven't convinced me we need this kind of treatment. Hell, you haven't even convinced me the problem is as dire as cancer, more like chronic bronchitis or something. If this were really happening, I would probably slap you with a lawsuit.

As I asked you in the other thread, what's wrong with Giuliani's plan?
( Last edited by subego; Oct 8, 2007 at 08:21 PM. )
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
BadKosh, the privatized US system is expensive in every way, literally... I suggest you look into what these costs are.
Huh?? You tawkin ta ME?? Got yer posts confused.


I would suggest that the lawyers fees on all sides is a big amount of the expenses in doing business in the healthcare field. lawyers in insurance companies, Ambulance chasing lawyers, and trial lawyers wasting court time and costing money as they grab at straws trying to prove that some idiot who never read the side of his cigarette pack isn't responsible for his illness. Lawyers have insinuated themselves into everyplace they can(kind of like roaches) and have caused prices to rise everywhere.

Corporate greed has also played a part in the development of new drug, and again, there are the lawyers. Political types aren't going to stop it, as some of the money coming in becomes political contributions from the drug, HMO/PPO's and Doctors lobbyists.

Somehow I don't see any government program being managed without corruption and incompetence. The first thing any politician wants to know is whats in it for him if he proposes any legislation. Making the problem worse is having multiple programs doing the same thing, and no accountability. Welfare handouts have sure damaged our country more than helped. No accountability, generational scammers, and corrupt providers are the norm.

I suggest stopping foreign aide to almost everywhere and using THAT money to help our kids if you really think this recent election year BS will work.

Hindsight is 20:20. Learn from it.
     
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Oct 8, 2007, 09:08 PM
 
I suggest stopping foreign aide to almost everywhere and using THAT money to help our kids if you really think this recent election year BS will work.
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Oct 9, 2007, 01:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Goose egg.

Per Chongo's definition.

So what do you think the Wikipedia meant? What is the argument against saying the Canadian system is not socialized as per the Wikipedia article?
     
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Oct 9, 2007, 01:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Socialist policy (any socialist policy) is miserable and awful.

You can liken it very much to chemotherapy or radiation treatments.

There are some things that only those kind of treatments can cure, and woe betides the person who doesn't take them if there is no other option.

That doesn't make them any less miserable and awful.

You haven't convinced me we need this kind of treatment. Hell, you haven't even convinced me the problem is as dire as cancer, more like chronic bronchitis or something. If this were really happening, I would probably slap you with a lawsuit.

As I asked you in the other thread, what's wrong with Giuliani's plan?

Are you talking to me? What is Giuliani's plan?
     
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Oct 9, 2007, 01:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Huh?? You tawkin ta ME?? Got yer posts confused.


I would suggest that the lawyers fees on all sides is a big amount of the expenses in doing business in the healthcare field. lawyers in insurance companies, Ambulance chasing lawyers, and trial lawyers wasting court time and costing money as they grab at straws trying to prove that some idiot who never read the side of his cigarette pack isn't responsible for his illness. Lawyers have insinuated themselves into everyplace they can(kind of like roaches) and have caused prices to rise everywhere.

Corporate greed has also played a part in the development of new drug, and again, there are the lawyers. Political types aren't going to stop it, as some of the money coming in becomes political contributions from the drug, HMO/PPO's and Doctors lobbyists.

Somehow I don't see any government program being managed without corruption and incompetence. The first thing any politician wants to know is whats in it for him if he proposes any legislation. Making the problem worse is having multiple programs doing the same thing, and no accountability. Welfare handouts have sure damaged our country more than helped. No accountability, generational scammers, and corrupt providers are the norm.

I suggest stopping foreign aide to almost everywhere and using THAT money to help our kids if you really think this recent election year BS will work.

Hindsight is 20:20. Learn from it.

Lawyers and malpractice insurance is a big expense, but even bigger is the expense of having to provide service without getting payment from a patient and/or insurance company. Entire billing departments are needed for this sort of thing, which is why EMT workers around here make barely more than minimum wage.
     
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Oct 9, 2007, 01:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Are you talking to me? What is Giuliani's plan?
Yes.

15k tax credit for a family who has private insurance.
     
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Oct 9, 2007, 01:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So what do you think the Wikipedia meant? What is the argument against saying the Canadian system is not socialized as per the Wikipedia article?



I really don't know. That's why I pointed out the lame source.

It is wikipedia. I could just change it so it says it is socialized medicine.

I mean, that's probably what it meant, i.e. somebody has an opinion it isn't socialized medicine, so that's what they write, complete with a fake source to lure in the gullible.

Ahem.
     
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Oct 9, 2007, 01:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Yes.

15k tax credit for a family who has private insurance.
$15000??
     
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Oct 9, 2007, 01:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
$15000??

Yes.
     
 
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