[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by subego 

IIRC, God tells Adam and Eve that if they partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that they shall surely die. They do partake, and then don't die.

Of course, they ultimately die, but that's not because they ate the apple, it's because God cast them out of the garden. Had they been able to stay, they would have been able to partake of the tree of immortality.

They died because they were cast out of the garden. They were cast out of the garden because the ate the fruit. So ultimately, they did die because the ate the fruit.

[subego]

Originally Posted by design219 

Originally Posted by subego

the man has become like one of us,

That's interesting. Who is the "us?"

Your attributions are a bit janked-up.

Edit: Oh, I see. That quote should have been to God.

As to the answer, isn't the OT pretty clear about there being other gods?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by design219 

That's interesting. Who is the "us?"

Father, Son, Spirit.

John 1:1-3

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by subego 

IIRC, God tells Adam and Eve that if they partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that they shall surely die. They do partake, and then don't die.

Of course, they ultimately die, but that's not because they ate the apple, it's because God cast them out of the garden. Had they been able to stay, they would have been able to partake of the tree of immortality.

From the Revised Standard:

"3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" 4 But the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not die.'"

"22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" -- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden"

So, did Adam and Eve die? Yes, yes they did. No lie by God.

[- - e r i k - -]

YOU ARE ALL GOING TO DIE IF YOU POST IN THIS THREAD!!!!

Eventually...

[subego]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

They died because they were cast out of the garden. They were cast out of the garden because the ate the fruit. So ultimately, they did die because the ate the fruit.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

So, did Adam and Eve die? Yes, yes they did. No lie by God.

"2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."


At the least this is intentional obfuscation.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by subego 

"2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."


At the least this is intentional obfuscation.

It could be metaphorical... But yeah, I had forgotten about that bit of it.

[subego]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

It could be metaphorical... But yeah, I had forgotten about that bit of it.

Me too.

IOW, I wasn't trying to ambush you.

Though I must admit, after drafting a totally confusing 800 word response in my head going into whether God had foreknowledge of the penalty, or perhaps more importantly whether the serpent had foreknowledge, and then finding that passage...

I let myself feel like I was well read enough about this to ambush you. Just for a few seconds.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Father, Son, Spirit.

John 1:1-3

Unlikely. Probably the heavenly host.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Unlikely. Probably the heavenly host.

Nope, Jesus and God with the Holy Spirit.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

It could be metaphorical... But yeah, I had forgotten about that bit of it.

It is. just as BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.

Ephesians 2:4-6 NASB

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

[- - e r i k - -]

^ How is that passage relevant to God being a lying bastard?

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

^ How is that passage relevant to God being a lying bastard?

It doesn't matter whether or not he's lying. What's really important is that if you read Genesis, not only is God not omniscient--he doesn't know Adam has eaten until he asks--but he is also afraid. He chases Adam and Eve from the Garden to prevent them from eating from the tree of life, which would make them Gods too. Remember, elsewhere in the Old Testament, he acknowledges there are other Gods--they're real as far as he seems to be concerned--and he must've learned the lessons from all those other Gods who were usurped by their creations in other Mesopotamian myths.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by subego 

This is one of the two big questions I've always had.

How did Adam and Eve know that defying God's word was wrong if they had no knowledge of good and evil?

The other question is why does no one ever call God out for lying to Adam and Eve, nor give the serpent credit for telling the truth?

The whole notion that Adam and Eve were being punished for sin is completely fallacious. It's a Christian reinterpretation. (This is Genesis, and yet the Jews never say anything about original sin...why not? Because that's not what the book says.)

Adam and Eve are chased from the Garden because they are now a threat to God. If they eat of the tree of life then they will live forever and be Gods themselves.

That's why they're evicted.

Sin, schmin...Yahweh was looking out for numero uno, plain and simple.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Adam and Eve are chased from the Garden because they are now a threat to God. If they eat of the tree of life then they will live forever and be Gods themselves.

Ya that is much more plausible, thanks for clearing that one up.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

The whole notion that Adam and Eve were being punished for sin is completely fallacious. It's a Christian reinterpretation. (This is Genesis, and yet the Jews never say anything about original sin...why not? Because that's not what the book says.)

The question of whether Adam and Eve sinned is completely different from the question of original sin. Adam unquestionably disobeyed God's commandment (this is established in Genesis 3:3 and 3:11) and reaped the punishment God had laid out. The doctrine of original sin is that Adam's sin was then transmitted to us through his blood and we're all born sinful — this is not generally found in Judaism.

Also the scriptures make the "be gods themselves" association with the tree they did eat from. God sees that they have become like gods and declares that they can't be allowed immortality now (he had already promised them death if they ate from the first tree).

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by subego 

IIRC, God tells Adam and Eve that if they partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that they shall surely die. They do partake, and then don't die.

Of course, they ultimately die, but that's not because they ate the apple, it's because God cast them out of the garden. Had they been able to stay, they would have been able to partake of the tree of immortality.

From the Revised Standard:

"3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" 4 But the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not die.'"

"22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" -- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden"

Can I make quotes from my "Book of Pixies"?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by subego 

"2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."


At the least this is intentional obfuscation.

No doubt it was a test of faith and obedience. If I built a tent for my family, I might want to ensure it could withstand severe conditions. I may even test it with adversity such as wind, sticks, rain, and snow to see how trustworthy it was.

Death is the result of sin. Mentioned again in Romans 3:23 and Colossians 2:13.
Sin is separation from God. They are no longer welcome in the Garden of Eden where they had regular communion with God. This ideal also found in Isaiah 59:1-2.

The serpent told Eve that they would surely not die. He lied. God told them they would surely die in that day. They ushered death in on that day. Their immortality ceased on that day. Their nakedness was made apparent to them that day and their innocence died that day. Animals were not food nor was there death of any kind until that day. Eve to give birth in pain from that day. Adam having now to cultivate land for sustenance from that day. Death and the shedding of blood necessary for their covering from that day. Physically and spiritually. The fact they didn't die that day, but were offered a redemptive plan through sacrifice illustrates a merciful God to many.

The relationship between God and man changed on that day from one of eternal life, daily and direct communion with God, and immorality, to one of death, separation from God, and mortality.