[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

There was that thing called the non aggression pact.
as Dr Charles Rankin AKA Franz Kindler said "Marx wasn't a German, Marx was a Jew." (The Stranger 1946)

non aggression pack sounds like we like each other... so hitler would be a hero like marx and lenin...right?

edit: so if marx was a jew....what does that have to do with anything? liberal?

Originally Posted by Chongo 

cute, as you were saying?

[OldManMac]

Hits the nail on the head.

http://digg.com/d313FuE

[ironknee]

what does Disney have to say to our kids...since Walt Disney was a Fascist

[hyteckit]

Conservatives are afraid of the President talking to their kids the same way they are afraid of their kids catching the gays if they came in contact with a gay person.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Karl Marx

If you want to be childish, we don't have to discuss this any further.

[ebuddy]

I think the crux of the problem here is a fundamental mistrust of the public school system + an increasing mistrust of this Administration + extremely unfortunate timing. Plain and simple.

The accompanying lesson plan to the President's speech on staying in school originally included writing a letter to one's self on how to help the President. Help the President what, stay in school? The concern here is obviously that this is little more than a supplemental to afford an increasingly zealous left wing educator the opportunity to celebrate Obama and his policy agendas. Not unlike how our children have been used in the past to write letters for higher spending on education, involve themselves in pro-illegal immigration rallies, gay marriage ceremonies, environmentalist propaganda, and anti-war events.

That said, I don't have a problem with the speech or the supplemental as it stands currently and as long as school officials in concert with parental involvement are willing and able to keep their activist educators in check, it could be a healthy and most welcome message.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

If you want to be childish, we don't have to discuss this any further.

I think it's cute that he doesn't think he's a conspiracy theorist.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

The accompanying lesson plan to the President's speech on staying in school originally included writing a letter to one's self on how to help the President. Help the President what, stay in school? The concern here is obviously that this is little more than a supplemental to afford an increasingly zealous left wing educator the opportunity to celebrate Obama and his policy agendas.

Sure, but are you honestly telling me that it couldn't be used by a zealous right wing educator to criticize Obama and his policy agendas?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

If you want to be childish, we don't have to discuss this any further.

He was asked what angle the educators are trying to take now and he answered Karl Marx. You might know there is an increasing mistrust of this Administration, the public school system, their croneyism, and well-documented evidence of a very checkered past among several of this Administration supporting ideology those, not students of Chavez might find detestable. You may disagree with his opinion, but it is an opinion none the less and one that is not entirely unfounded by the way.

What's the hub-bub, bub?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I think it's cute that he doesn't think he's a conspiracy theorist.

Conspiracy theorists are those the President props up for his green jobs agenda.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Sure, but are you honestly telling me that it couldn't be used by a zealous right wing educator to criticize Obama and his policy agendas?

Absolutely. The difference is the fact that zealous right wing educators typically don't stand a chance in a system increasingly hostile to right-wing ideology.

None the less, the President is a very polarizing figure. Zealots from both sides will have to be kept in check on this one.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Absolutely. The difference is the fact that zealous right wing educators typically don't stand a chance in a system increasingly hostile to right-wing ideology.

I think that's a bit of a Conservative myth. Conservative ideologies seem to be alive and well in certain school boards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatio...ation_programs

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I think that's a bit of a Conservative myth. Conservative ideologies seem to be alive and well in certain school boards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatio...ation_programs

This is a pretty myopic argument IMO Wiskedjak, but let's take a look at it anyway;

Alabama; In 1996, the Alabama State Board of Education adopted a textbook sticker that was a disclaimer about evolution. It has since been revised and moderated.
California; On August 8, 2008, Judge Otero entered summary judgment against plaintiff ACSI, upholding the University of California's standards. The university found the books "didn't encourage critical thinking skills and failed to cover 'major topics, themes and components'" and were thus, ill-suited to prepare students for college.
Kansas; On February 13, 2007, the Kansas State Board of Education approved a new curriculum which removed any reference to Intelligent Design as part of science. In the words of Dr Bill Wagnon, the board chairman, "Today the Kansas Board of Education returned its curriculum standards to mainstream science".
Kentucky; In October 1999, the Kentucky Department of Education replaced the word "evolution" with "change over time" in state school standards.
Ohio; In 2002, proponents of intelligent design asked the Ohio Board of Education to adopt intelligent design as part of its standard biology curriculum, in line with the guidelines of the Edwards v. Aguillard holding.
Georgia; On December 20, 2006, the Cobb County Board of Education abandoned all of its legal activities and will no longer mandate that biology texts contain a sticker stating "evolution is a theory, not a fact." Their decision was a result of compromise negotiated with a group of parents, represented by the ACLU, that were opposed to the sticker.
Pennsylvania; The entire staff of the school board was dismissed in this example and eventually- On December 20, 2005 federal judge John E. Jones III ruled that the Dover School Board had violated the Constitution when they set their policy on teaching intelligent design, and stated that "In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents."
Virginia; Despite proponents urging that intelligent design should be included in the school system's science curriculum the school board of Chesterfield County Public Schools in Virginia decided on May 23, 2007, to approve science textbooks for middle and high schools which do not include the idea of intelligent design.
Texas; On November 7, 2007 the Texas Education Agency director of science curriculum Christine Comer was forced to resign over an e-mail she had sent announcing a talk given by an anti-Intelligent Design author. In a memo obtained under the Texas Freedom of Information act, TEA officials wrote "Ms. Comer's e-mail implies endorsement of the speaker and implies that TEA endorses the speaker's position on a subject on which the agency must remain neutral."
Florida; On February 19, 2008, the Florida State Board of Education adopted new science standards in a 4-3 vote. The new science curriculum standards explicitly require the teaching of the "scientific theory of evolution"

So... when I stated that the public school system is increasingly hostile to "right-wing ideology", you cite one issue; Creation VS Evolution, and provide examples which are little more than socially conservative movements outside the school system, trying to influence the school system and failing in all, but one State?

What State? Kentucky; In which they are calling "evolution", "change over time"? If anything, this dispels the Creationist notion that there is somehow a difference between micro and macro evolution and is likely a net-gain for proponents of the TOE.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

He was asked what angle the educators are trying to take now and he answered Karl Marx. You might know there is an increasing mistrust of this Administration, the public school system, their croneyism, and well-documented evidence of a very checkered past among several of this Administration supporting ideology those, not students of Chavez might find detestable. You may disagree with his opinion, but it is an opinion none the less and one that is not entirely unfounded by the way.

Please don't forget your tin foil hat on the way out.

[SpaceMonkey]

Oh, look, the thread has already taken a turn to arguing about things that Obama isn't even going to be talking about in his address to school children. Operation FUD successful!

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

If anything, this dispels the Creationist notion that there is somehow a difference between micro and macro evolution and is likely a net-gain for proponents of the TOE.

Not to start a massive how-did-we-come-to-be argument, but there is a difference between "changes over time within a species" and "changes that create entirely new categories of creatures - e.g. different dog breeds with markedly different characteristics vs. a dog evolving from some entirely different animal (fish, lizard, whatever).

That aside, I think that this kind of stuff is flat-out embarrassing for the Republican party as a whole. This reminds me of all the stupid crap the liberal left pulled when Bush was re-elected...like Michael Moore's over-the-top dramatic "we will survive" letter, or the blog posts I saw from people insisting things like "Ashcroft will instate martial law and we'll have tanks in the street".

Acting as though Obama only ever publicly opens his mouth to spread his socialist agenda is just stupid and ignorant.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Conservatives are afraid of the President talking to their kids the same way they are afraid of their kids catching the gays if they came in contact with a gay person.

I'll be in my moon suit.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

This is a pretty myopic argument IMO Wiskedjak, but let's take a look at it anyway;

Seriously? You're claiming that schools are loaded with left-wing zealots who are hostile toward a minority of right wing zealots and you're claiming that *I'm* myopic?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Seriously? You're claiming that schools are loaded with left-wing zealots who are hostile toward a minority of right wing zealots and you're claiming that *I'm* myopic?

Unless you wish to dispute ebuddy's information, it would appear your claim was factually wrong.

[besson3c]

How so? Doesn't that assume that Intelligent Design supporters are both right wing and represent a majority of the right wing base?

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

I'll be in my moon suit.

Hopefully that moon suit is sound proof, or else the sound waves from Pres. Obama might brainwash you and turn you into a zombie.

Luckily you are protected from catching the gays from physical contact.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How so? Doesn't that assume that Intelligent Design supporters are both right wing and represent a majority of the right wing base?

His claim was that right-wing ideologies were at work in schools, and he used intelligent design as evidence. ebuddy countered that few if any of the examples show that intelligent design advocates in the school system have had any real effect.

[besson3c]

Oh, I see...

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

His claim was that right-wing ideologies were at work in schools, and he used intelligent design as evidence. ebuddy countered that few if any of the examples show that intelligent design advocates in the school system have had any real effect.

Ah. Ok. How about this?

ebuddy, could you please provide evidence that the US education system is dominated by left-wing zealots to the degree that "zealous right wing educators typically don't stand a chance in a system increasingly hostile to right-wing ideology"?

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Ah. Ok. How about this?

ebuddy, could you please provide evidence that the US education system is dominated by left-wing zealots to the degree that "zealous right wing educators typically don't stand a chance in a system increasingly hostile to right-wing ideology"?

It has been proven that facts have a left-wing liberal bias.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

His claim was that right-wing ideologies were at work in schools, and he used intelligent design as evidence. ebuddy countered that few if any of the examples show that intelligent design advocates in the school system have had any real effect.

Intelligent design has been struck down decisively again and again by courts, so to construe a bias in the school system (where many of the proposals to include Intelligent Design/Creationism originate from) is ludicrous. It's the stuff that conspiracy theories are made out of. It boils down to the fact that some zealots don't want their children to come into contact with the President -- who knows, they may even have a positive impression of the man! What's he going to tell them? Stay in school, do good for your country and your family perhaps? Don't eat too many Snicker bars and try apples instead?

Personally, I find that unfair to the children, in all likelihood, they will not have another opportunity to meet any President. I'd really like to have the opportunity to meet the President (no matter the color). (Technically, I was within 3-4 m of Bush 2 when his convoy passed me in Bucharest -- and that was already quite impressive )

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Seriously? You're claiming that schools are loaded with left-wing zealots who are hostile toward a minority of right wing zealots and you're claiming that *I'm* myopic?

No. When did I claim the school system is loaded with left-wing zealots? I claimed your argument was myopic because you cited a singular issue for which those movements outside the school system are failing to influence it. Comprehension may increase with a decrease in sensitivity.

*hint; this is where you say; "I'm sorry ebuddy, I was wrong and you were right."

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

No. When did I claim the school system is loaded with left-wing zealots? I claimed your argument was myopic because you cited a singular issue for which those movements outside the school system are failing to influence it. Comprehension may increase with a decrease in sensitivity.

*hint; this is where you say; "I'm sorry ebuddy, I was wrong and you were right."

Or, I say:

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

The difference is the fact that zealous right wing educators typically don't stand a chance in a system increasingly hostile to right-wing ideology.

How can you believe a system is increasingly hostile to right-wind ideology, to the point that right-wing zealots don't stand a chance, if it isn't loaded with left-wing zealots?

[ironknee]

what if president obama read my pet goat to the students? would that be ok?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

ebuddy, could you please provide evidence that the US education system is dominated by left-wing zealots to the degree that "zealous right wing educators typically don't stand a chance in a system increasingly hostile to right-wing ideology"?

Can I cite the union influence in the public school system as support of my argument? Of course, you will likely not accept a comparison between your example of a singular movement outside the school system failing and my example of movements that facilitate the school system itself. For what it's worth;

• Conservatives require bodyguards when speaking at universities
• Teacher fired for being Conservative
• Video of elementary school teacher denigrating students espousing support for McCain while wearing an Obama '08 pin
• Study shows 72% college educators self-admitted liberals, 15% Conservative
• survey finds biased professors more likely to express liberal sentiments than conservative leanings. A recently released survey conducted by the American Council of Trustees and Alumni (ACTA) found that 46 percent of students say professors “use the classroom to present their personal political views.” 42% of students complain that readings for classes do not present both sides of controversial issues, and 29% say that they feel they must agree with professors’ political views to do well in their classes. Additionally, 74% of respondents said that professors made positive comments about liberals, while 47% reported negative comments about conservatives.
• http://www.dailyemerald.com/2.2355/a...arity-1.189450 Among the full-time faculty of the University departments of journalism, law, political science, sociology and economics, there are 111 registered Oregon voters. Two of them are Republicans.
• "Dreams of My Father" as required reading in Massachusetts public school
• Students write anti-budget cut letters in classroom exercise
• School field trip to illegal immigrant day labor center "to learn about people before judging them"
• first graders take school field trip to teachers gay wedding/
• Environmentalist propaganda is alive and well in the public school system such as Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth and accompanying study guide being used in classrooms across the country.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

what if president obama read my pet goat to the students? would that be ok?

It would be okay if he agreed to read it to you first. Literacy begins at home.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Sorry, but this administration has done a lot of stupid crap already where its clear they don't really know what they're doing, and don't really give a crap about what people want outside of their agenda- so they've earned this level of distrust from many people when they start in with crap like: "Hey, now we have a "lesson plan" for your kids..."

I'd put money on the vast majority of the distrust shown toward this administration being a result of the "D" after Obama's name rather than the decisions he's made and the viability of his plans.

[besson3c]

ebuddy: perhaps it would help if we firstly decided on whether we are talking about K-12 or higher ed? I think it's pretty clear that the majority of academics are Liberals, as I don't think that the Conservative party has been a very welcoming home to them as of late. K-12 is a different story though, as many of the teachers teaching at this level are not the academic researcher types. I think we need to establish a baseline here, especially since one of your articles related to a college.

[Chongo]

The text of President Obama's prepared remarks have been posted.
Media Resources Prepared School Remarks

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I'd put money on the vast majority of the distrust shown toward this administration being a result of the "D" after Obama's name rather than the decisions he's made and the viability of his plans.

or the black in his race

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

It would be okay if he agreed to read it to you first. Literacy begins at home.

how sweet of you... tickle tickle

[besson3c]

Don't people have pet goats in Afghanistan and Iraq, countries that are ENEMIES OF THE UNITED STATES?

Sorry, just being an ass...

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I'd put money on the vast majority of the distrust shown toward this administration being a result of the "D" after Obama's name rather than the decisions he's made and the viability of his plans.

Is this because you oppose ideals contingent upon the letter after their name?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I'd put money on the vast majority of the distrust shown toward this administration being a result of the "D" after Obama's name rather than the decisions he's made and the viability of his plans.

Like the one where unemployment would not go above 8% if enacted?

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Is this because you oppose ideals contingent upon the letter after their name?

nah you know it's because...

Originally Posted by ironknee 

or the black in his race

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Can I cite the union influence in the public school system as support of my argument? Of course, you will likely not accept a comparison between your example of a singular movement outside the school system failing and my example of movements that facilitate the school system itself. For what it's worth;

• Conservatives require bodyguards when speaking at universities
• Teacher fired for being Conservative
• Video of elementary school teacher denigrating students espousing support for McCain while wearing an Obama '08 pin
• Study shows 72% college educators self-admitted liberals, 15% Conservative
• survey finds biased professors more likely to express liberal sentiments than conservative leanings. A recently released survey conducted by the American Council of Trustees and Alumni (ACTA) found that 46 percent of students say professors “use the classroom to present their personal political views.” 42% of students complain that readings for classes do not present both sides of controversial issues, and 29% say that they feel they must agree with professors’ political views to do well in their classes. Additionally, 74% of respondents said that professors made positive comments about liberals, while 47% reported negative comments about conservatives.
• http://www.dailyemerald.com/2.2355/a...arity-1.189450 Among the full-time faculty of the University departments of journalism, law, political science, sociology and economics, there are 111 registered Oregon voters. Two of them are Republicans.
• "Dreams of My Father" as required reading in Massachusetts public school
• Students write anti-budget cut letters in classroom exercise
• School field trip to illegal immigrant day labor center "to learn about people before judging them"
• first graders take school field trip to teachers gay wedding/
• Environmentalist propaganda is alive and well in the public school system such as Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth and accompanying study guide being used in classrooms across the country.

The majority of your links reference university and college scenarios; surely you agree that there's a difference between a university professor and a grade-school teacher?

Of those links that aren't university and college related, some are valid concerns but hardly indicate wide-spread liberalism in grade-schools. For the "first graders take school field trip to teachers gay wedding", I remember one of my grade school classes going to our teacher's hetero wedding.

[ironknee]

^^

i know, my first grade teacher's wedding was nice but the shrimp was so-so.

so are the dummy parents ok with the speech now? are we cool?

just sad that chongo will never answer my questions

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Like the one where unemployment would not go above 8% if enacted?

nah you know it's because...

hey chongo, maybe not you (?) but admit, there are conservatives that would never like a black anything let alone the president...

[besson3c]

I'm down with the speech! I don't have any kids, but I'm extremely immature, does that count?

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

No. When did I claim the school system is loaded with left-wing zealots? I claimed your argument was myopic because you cited a singular issue for which those movements outside the school system are failing to influence it. Comprehension may increase with a decrease in sensitivity.

*hint; this is where you say; "I'm sorry ebuddy, I was wrong and you were right."

ebuddy does claim the school system is loaded with left-wing zealots.

http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...2/#post3862246

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

hey chongo, maybe not you (?) but admit, there are conservatives that would never like a black anything let alone the president...

Just as there liberals that would never like a black anything let alone the president...

[torsoboy]

The text of the speech was released this evening. You can read it here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32723584...s-white_house/

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

The text of the speech was released this evening. You can read it here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32723584...s-white_house/

I posted the HW link this morning

Originally Posted by Chongo 

The text of President Obama's prepared remarks have been posted.
Media Resources Prepared School Remarks

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Just as there liberals that would never like a black anything let alone the president...

really? huh... go figure... do you think it's about the same amount the conservatives have?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

ebuddy does claim the school system is loaded with left-wing zealots.

http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...2/#post3862246

It doesn't surprise me that you would cite my post from July because of course you missed the crux of the relevant statement there as well. Not only does ebuddy not claim the school system is loaded with left-wing zealots, the point was that intolerance and elitism have both hijacked traditional liberalism. I don't think we're talking about what conservatives traditionally refer to as "liberal" anymore personally. More like authoritarian and increasingly heavy-handed, mean spirited, and antagonist. I'm actually astounded by the lack of concern for the affront to authentic liberalism.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

really? huh... go figure... do you think it's about the same amount the conservatives have?

More actually and if you use the fruits of their ideology as a metric it becomes even more apparent.