Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

besson3c · Oct 27, 2009, 01:37 PM

Great example right here:

O'Reilly Goes After Joe Klein: 'Mr Klein Is Scared' Of Me (VIDEO)

If you disagree with O'Reilly and don't want to confront him for whatever reason (which could include valid reasons like not feeling like this will be terribly productive), you are branded a "coward". This sort of formula seems pretty common, the goading, the testosterone driven style of conflict, the overall aggression and labeling.

This *is* entertaining, but probably more for the same reasons why wrestling or boxing can be entertaining - we want to see who gets whom, who "wins", and we generally revel in the conflict.

I'm not going to wade into the Obama war with Fox issue (I generally think that this is bad strategy on his admin's part), but it seems clear to me that this sort of conflict dominates the cable news networks. People tune in to see this sort of stuff. I have no doubt that the pairing of people like Ann Coulter and Michael Moore and the like makes for great ratings.

I also think this goes beyond TV ratings and has become a part of our culture. The level of combativeness and frequency of aggression, plus the short amount of time it often takes to ratchet it up here is a good example. Some would say that this is "passion" and that this is a "good thing", but what good ever comes out of yelling fests?

It's been a while since I've lived in Canada, but I definitely don't remember politics being this rancorous. How about in other countries? I know there are several non North Americans here, is the kind of stuff you are exposed to here and in the American media pretty unique?

BadKosh · Oct 27, 2009, 08:28 PM

Perhaps it has more to do with Liberals spouting opinions and BS as fact and when having to be on with Bill O'Reily he's call them on their urban legends and lies and BS, and they couldn't prove their side. Thats what is going on with the WH vs FOX thing. The WH spokesfolks can't prove the BS they are spouting. People are getting sick of 0bama's lousy job, and the Liberal Congress pushing the healthcare bill despite a majority of Americans not wanting it. The Libs are just asking to be voted out in droves in 2010.

Dork. · Oct 27, 2009, 08:44 PM

^ a perfect example of "combativeness and frequency of aggression".

Fox is successful because they present news in a manner that people want to watch. It's simple.

Chuckit · Oct 27, 2009, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Dork.

^ a perfect example of "combativeness and frequency of aggression".

Fox is successful because they present news in a manner that people want to watch. It's simple.

Fox is successful because they do something people want to watch. Whether that something would best be described as "presenting news" is a different question.

Dork. · Oct 27, 2009, 09:22 PM

Well, they are presenting news, just with a overt bias. The people who watch either don't mind the bias, or are actively seeking it.

besson3c · Oct 27, 2009, 09:31 PM

Or are mostly apolitical and just tune in for the conflict?

hyteckit · Oct 27, 2009, 09:33 PM

Real news is boring. CNN is boring.

FOX fake sensational news is interesting.

Sensationalizing and scaring people sells.

Generate controversy. Generate confrontation.

Which is more exciting?

What you would know about the public option.

or

What you don't know about the public option might kill you!

hyteckit · Oct 27, 2009, 10:28 PM

Haha.. Shepard Smith seems to be the only honest news reporter on Fox News.

Shep Smith Apologizes For "Lack Of Balance" In Fox News Report (VIDEO)

olePigeon · Oct 27, 2009, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Dork.

Fox is successful because they present ~~news~~ entertainment in a manner that people want to watch. It's simple.

Fixed.™

besson3c · Oct 28, 2009, 01:22 AM

It's so unfortunate that it's nearly impossible to critique Fox without making this about whether or not you support their political positions.

As far as I'm concerned, all of my various critiques of Fox would apply the same way if their bias was leaning left. I'm far more concerned with the presentation than I am the content.

lpkmckenna · Oct 28, 2009, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

It's been a while since I've lived in Canada, but I definitely don't remember politics being this rancorous.

No Canadian leader would ever bother with primetime blowhards like O'Reilly.

Frankly, the only news personality appropriate to interview party leaders is the anchor. Having party leaders appear on scaremongering media shows is simply beneath the office.

turtle777 · Oct 28, 2009, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

It's so unfortunate that it's nearly impossible to critique Fox without making this about whether or not you support their political positions.

As far as I'm concerned, all of my various critiques of Fox would apply the same way if their bias was leaning left. I'm far more concerned with the presentation than I am the content.

Hello besson, since you like to rant against Fox and the Republicans, do you also like to masturbate ?

I heard it's almost as good as Fox bashing...

-t

besson3c · Oct 28, 2009, 03:09 AM

Turtle: are you this combative in real life? Just wondering...

stupendousman · Oct 28, 2009, 07:05 AM

Fox News didn't invent combative news TV. CNN did. Remember Crossfire?

This stuff has been around for years. The reason why Fox News is successful is because for years there were several major players all vying for the same viewers who were all biased to the left in their reporting.

The majority of the viewers who where not liberal didn't have any real choice in where they got their news - they had to pick one of the liberal mainstream media sources.

Rupert Murdoch makes a new station that actually allows equal time for all views in it's newscasts and offers conservative voices to be more prominent in it's editorial programs and SURPRISE?!?, all the people who weren't being served by the left-leaning media go running to that source.

The more interesting question is why the media didn't do this before Rupert Murdoch. This was smart business. There was no extra money to be made by continuing to offer multiple left-leaning options to a viewership who by majority didn't really lean left, yet that's what the broadcast and cable networks offered. I guess eventually successful businesses get beat by businesses who figure out the flaws in their business model and then they can either adjust or die.

CNN is now in last place and it's not because they can't stomach the combative format they invented - it's because they are out of touch with the viewers they hope to attract. That's not the fault of Fox News and never has been.

ebuddy · Oct 28, 2009, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Haha.. Shepard Smith seems to be the only honest news reporter on Fox News.

Shep Smith Apologizes For "Lack Of Balance" In Fox News Report (VIDEO)

Lack of balance being cited by the Huffington Post is... well it's laughable. By watching the video, it is clear that the Huff-huff-blow-political-opposition-down is in full effect. Shep doesn't really apologize for lack of balance as cited by the huff-huff.

Next up; China claims US newspaper delivery is child labor.

ebuddy · Oct 28, 2009, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by stupendousman

Fox News didn't invent combative news TV. CNN did. Remember Crossfire?

This stuff has been around for years. The reason why Fox News is successful is because for years there were several major players all vying for the same viewers who were all biased to the left in their reporting.

The majority of the viewers who where not liberal didn't have any real choice in where they got their news - they had to pick one of the liberal mainstream media sources.

Rupert Murdoch makes a new station that actually allows equal time for all views in it's newscasts and offers conservative voices to be more prominent in it's editorial programs and SURPRISE?!?, all the people who weren't being served by the left-leaning media go running to that source.

The more interesting question is why the media didn't do this before Rupert Murdoch. This was smart business. There was no extra money to be made by continuing to offer multiple left-leaning options to a viewership who by majority didn't really lean left, yet that's what the broadcast and cable networks offered. I guess eventually successful businesses get beat by businesses who figure out the flaws in their business model and then they can either adjust or die.

CNN is now in last place and it's not because they can't stomach the combative format they invented - it's because they are out of touch with the viewers they hope to attract. That's not the fault of Fox News and never has been.

Period. 'Nuff said.

BadKosh · Oct 28, 2009, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Real news is boring. CNN is boring.

FOX fake sensational news is interesting.

Sensationalizing and scaring people sells.

Generate controversy. Generate confrontation.

Which is more exciting?

What you would know about the public option.

or

What you don't know about the public option might kill you!

Yeah, I really enjoyed the MSM, led by CNN, MSNBC and such as they repeated the fake Limbaugh quote and then had to eat their words to keep from being sued. Dan Rather must be so proud. This is the same MSM that ignored the ACORN stories, afraid that 0bamas involvement with them would make them targets for just reporting on it. several days later.......

Dork. · Oct 28, 2009, 08:39 AM

A timely op-ed from the WSJ's token liberal:

Thomas Frank: Obama Is Right About Fox News - WSJ.com

To point out that this network is different, that it is intensely politicized, that it inhabits an alternate reality defined by an imaginary conflict between noble heartland patriots and devious liberals—to be aware of these things is not the act of a scheming dictatorial personality. It is the obvious conclusion drawn by anybody with eyes and ears.

BadKosh · Oct 28, 2009, 09:49 AM

opinion stated as fact........

The Final Dakar · Oct 28, 2009, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by BadK0sh

opinion stated as fact........

Really?

Looks like opinion presented as opinion to me.

Atheist · Oct 28, 2009, 10:35 AM

You could make the claim that conservatives are less confident about their believe system and require daily affirmation via Fox News... thus the higher ratings.

Prime time cable news is pure entertainment. It's all about self-righteous indignation.

To put it all in perspective, there is almost 120 million viewing households in the US and just a few million viewers per day watch all Cable News prime time programming put together. Seems to me viewership is limited mostly to the die-hards looking to feel good about themselves.

OldManMac · Oct 28, 2009, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by BadKosh

opinion stated as fact........

And you do anything different how?

stupendousman · Oct 28, 2009, 12:18 PM

To point out that this network is different, that it is intensely politicized, that it inhabits an alternate reality defined by an imaginary conflict between noble heartland patriots and devious liberals—to be aware of these things is not the act of a scheming dictatorial personality. It is the obvious conclusion drawn by anybody with eyes and ears.

I'll have some of whatever this guy is having!

Yes, Fox News is different. It isn't biased from the left like all the others. We know. That's a problem for the left because they've held the monopoly on bias since broadcast news was invented. They don't like the competition.

Intensely politicized? Has this guy ever watched MSNBC? Did he not remember why Dan Rather got fired?

If this guy's "eyes and ears" looks for bias and politicization and they start and end at Fox News, then he needs to see a doctor fast. One sure way you know that you're dealing with a biased media pot calling a TV news organization black is when they can only see one of the 6-7 major TV news sources doing it and feign outrage.

Spare me.

olePigeon · Oct 28, 2009, 12:30 PM

Did no one's parents ever tell them that two wrongs don't make a right? Somehow it's OK for FOX News to be a conservative soap box because several other organizations are liberal?

stupendousman · Oct 28, 2009, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Did no one's parents ever tell them that two wrongs don't make a right? Somehow it's OK for FOX News to be a conservative soap box because several other organizations are liberal?

I always thought the left claimed that hypocrisy was the worse sin. More so than "two wrongs don't make a right".

The point is that for years none of these people saw any bias or that there was anything wrong. When the comical leftward slant of the news was pointed out, those in the the media feigned ignorance and ignored the calls for balance. They STILL don't see it.

If it's not wrong for the left to continue to slant the news on 6 or 7 TV networks, then how can it be wrong for ONE network to slant the news from the other side? The problem is that those criticizing aren't looking to right a wrong - they are looking to keep things unfairly balanced. As I said, they don't like the competition - especially when it beats them in the ratings.

You can't have it both ways. Intellectual dishonesty doesn't make a wrong right either. It just makes the person engaging in it a phony hypocrite.

It's as if there are 6 bullies throwing rocks at one guy, and then that guy finds some bigger rocks and starts hurting the bullies and they cry foul. It's really, really a comical situation.

besson3c · Oct 28, 2009, 01:54 PM

olepigeon: get with it. *Everything* is something about the left being wrong, hypocritical, bad, or else somehow negative.

stupendousman: I've said this before and I'll say this again: few take you seriously outside of those that already agree with you. A little concession or restraint from using an opportunity to attack the left might help a little. We get it. Liberals bad, Conservatives good. We really do. Do you have any idea how repetitive you are?

Cue snippy response about how nobody takes me seriously, how I'm the hypocrite, blabbity blab blab blab.

BadKosh · Oct 28, 2009, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar

Really?

Looks like opinion presented as opinion to me.

And opinion labeled as such is fine. The MSM doesn't do that.

The Final Dakar · Oct 28, 2009, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by BadKosh

And opinion labeled as such is fine. The MSM doesn't do that.

And that has nothing to do what you were saying. Nice backpedal.

besson3c · Oct 28, 2009, 02:21 PM

Hey look, a bird!

olePigeon · Oct 28, 2009, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by stupendousman

If it's not wrong for the left to continue to slant the news on 6 or 7 TV networks, then how can it be wrong for ONE network to slant the news from the other side?

News Corp is the second largest media conglomerate in the world, they have more than one network even if it's not labeled FOX. Also, don't forget that 40% of Americans still get their information from the radio, which was almost exclusively Conservative talk radio until relatively recently.

Originally Posted by stupendousman

Intellectual dishonesty doesn't make a wrong right either. It just makes the person engaging in it a phony hypocrite.

Yes, so why are you defending FOX?

Originally Posted by stupendousman

It's as if there are 6 bullies throwing rocks at one guy, and then that guy finds some bigger rocks and starts hurting the bullies and they cry foul. It's really, really a comical situation.

Instead of discouraging the behavior, you're on the sidelines cheering it on. Seems counter productive to me.

olePigeon · Oct 28, 2009, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar

And that has nothing to do what you were saying. Nice backpedal.

You didn't give him enough time to use zeros.

hyteckit · Oct 28, 2009, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by BadKosh

Yeah, I really enjoyed the MSM, led by CNN, MSNBC and such as they repeated the fake Limbaugh quote and then had to eat their words to keep from being sued. Dan Rather must be so proud. This is the same MSM that ignored the ACORN stories, afraid that 0bamas involvement with them would make them targets for just reporting on it. several days later.......

Speaking of Rush Limbaugh and Dan Rather and fake quotes.

Did you hear Rush Limbaugh pulled a Dan Rather?

Rush Limbaugh fell for a hoax thinking the fake thesis was actually written by Obama.

Rush Limbaugh fooled by Obama hoax but will he apologize? (video)

Rush Limbaugh instead of apologizing for the mistake, Rush said even the the essay was fabricated, it didn't matter because Obama would have said such things anyway.

Haha... Rush Limbaugh, who need facts anyway when you can just make it up?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...apologize.html

ACORN? Not even a story.

You know what's a story? Republicans being Pro-Rape. If ACORN is a story, Fox news needs to spend the next 6 months talking about how Republicans are Pro-Rape.

hyteckit · Oct 28, 2009, 03:34 PM

Limbaugh falls for Obama thesis hoax - but is in no Rush to apologize

Limbaugh said he has license to go with the fabrication because other members of the media have done this to him.
"So, I can say, "I don't care if these quotes are made up," he said. "I know Obama thinks it.

"You know why I know Obama thinks it? Because I've heard him say it."

Yes Rush. Keep f*cking that chicken. Maybe an egg would come out of it.

ironknee · Oct 28, 2009, 05:14 PM

of course the reason fox is successful is that there are a lot of dumb americans

Chongo · Oct 28, 2009, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by stupendousman

Intensely politicized? Has this guy ever watched MSNBC?

Apparently he must this Kieth Doberman, Chris "tingle up my leg' Mathews and Rachel Madcow are middle of the road.

Lets not forget CNN's Jack Cafferety, Wolf Blitzer and Solidad O' Brian.

besson3c · Oct 28, 2009, 06:57 PM

I must admit, if you are going to insist on misspelling the names of people you don't agree with, "Rachel Madcow" is a little more creative than "0bama"...

Chuckit · Oct 28, 2009, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I must admit, if you are going to insist on misspelling the names of people you don't agree with, "Rachel Madcow" is a little more creative than "0bama"...

Infinitely more, in that it involves some small degree of creativity.

stupendousman · Oct 28, 2009, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

olepigeon: get with it. *Everything* is something about the left being wrong, hypocritical, bad, or else somehow negative.

stupendousman: I've said this before and I'll say this again: few take you seriously outside of those that already agree with you. A little concession or restraint from using an opportunity to attack the left might help a little. We get it. Liberals bad, Conservatives good. We really do. Do you have any idea how repetitive you are?

Cue snippy response about how nobody takes me seriously, how I'm the hypocrite, blabbity blab blab blab.

No "snippy" response needed. Your insane rant and personal attacks speak for themselves. Especially since I conceded that there was likely bias on BOTH SIDES.

stupendousman · Oct 28, 2009, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Speaking of Rush Limbaugh and Dan Rather and fake quotes.

Did you hear Rush Limbaugh pulled a Dan Rather?

Rush Limbaugh fell for a hoax thinking the fake thesis was actually written by Obama.

Limbaugh apparently corrected the record just shortly after reading the satirical thesis on the air, warning his audience that the whole thing might be a hoax because his staff couldn't verify it.

Ignorant Media Misses Our Satiric Tweak on the Obama Thesis Hoax

We aren't talking about days latter - we are talking about the very same show. Dan Rather stood by his story as factual even after it was shown that the documents he used was forged.

The fact that he claimed that he was sticking by the story because he knew Obama really felt that way further caused the hook to creep further and further down your throat apparently. Do all liberals have to have satire explained to them?

stupendousman · Oct 28, 2009, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

News Corp is the second largest media conglomerate in the world, they have more than one network even if it's not labeled FOX.

How many TV networks do they own that produce it's own news programs broadcast in the United States?

Also, don't forget that 40% of Americans still get their information from the radio, which was almost exclusively Conservative talk radio until relatively recently.

I'm not saying that number isn't correct, but could you source it for me?

Yes, so why are you defending FOX?

I'm not defending FOX as much as I'm laughing at the disproportionate attention they are getting, given the facts.

hyteckit · 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by stupendousman

Limbaugh apparently corrected the record just shortly after reading the satirical thesis on the air, warning his audience that the whole thing might be a hoax because his staff couldn't verify it.

Ignorant Media Misses Our Satiric Tweak on the Obama Thesis Hoax

We aren't talking about days latter - we are talking about the very same show. Dan Rather stood by his story as factual even after it was shown that the documents he used was forged.

The fact that he claimed that he was sticking by the story because he knew Obama really felt that way further caused the hook to creep further and further down your throat apparently. Do all liberals have to have satire explained to them?

Rush Limbaugh calls everything satiric whenever he is:

Wrong
Lying through his teeth
Being racist.. um race baiting
Being sexist.. um sex baiting
Gay bashing... um gay baiting
Liberal bashing
Spewing hate
Immigrant bashing

It's all Satiric. Right.

Who does Rush Limbaugh think he is? Stephen Colbert?

Why listen to Rush Limbaugh for facts then?

Rush Limbaugh is Onion news, except Onion News is funny.

Nothing he says is true.

Satire is about humor and wittiness. When there is nothing witty or humorour in anything Rush Limbaugh says and it's only filled with hate speech; it's not satire, It's hate speech or what Rush does best which is baiting or trolling.

Rush Limbaugh is a Master Baiter. That's what he is good at. That why he needs the Viagra and pain killers.

Too much Master Baiting and not enough wit and humor. Causes Chafing.

turtle777 · Oct 28, 2009, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Nothing I say is true.

At least you got that right.

-t

ebuddy · Oct 28, 2009, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Somehow it's OK for FOX News to be a conservative soap box because several other organizations are liberal?

No. It's curious that FOX News is the focus of such attention from the White House-down because they feature editorial hosts who don't have Pavlovian reactions to the mere mention of our President's name. This flies in the face of awareness and sensibility. My absolute favorite though has got to be the Huffington Post links indicating how biased Fox News really is. You know... the truth about Fox News.

I've got a theory on the success of Fox News, particularly their recent success-
Everyone who has massaged your ears in the past 10 months has let you down, committed an immense amount of your money for ambiguous purposes while insulting you, people like you, and slandering people who disagree with them, including Fox News. This Administration is bungling yet another message from a PR perspective and is essentially driving Fox's viewership and ratings.

ebuddy · Oct 28, 2009, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Rush Limbaugh calls everything...

... whatever it was hyteckit read in the Daily Kos, misread in the NY Times, or saw from an update of his buddy's on Facebook. I mean, it's Rush Limbaugh after all.

besson3c · Oct 28, 2009, 10:32 PM

blah

turtle777 · Oct 28, 2009, 10:36 PM

Personally, I never watch Fox.

I read the WSJ. Their opinion / view on things is often pretty similar, w/o the "packaging" and presentation of Fox.

Anyone who dismisses the content of Fox solely based on the presentation style is naive. But then again, those are the people who voted for an inexperienced Senator solely based on his promise of Hope and Change.

-t

besson3c · Oct 28, 2009, 10:40 PM

Are you this combative in real life, Turtle?

Dork. · Oct 28, 2009, 10:41 PM

They're not bungling their PR message, you are getting the exact message the White House wants you to get. They want to keep the focus on Conservative pundits and talk-show hosts, because they want to give the impression that there is no real leadership among politicians in today's GOP, so the talking heads are taking over the party. They are doing this as a strategy to keep the moderate swing voters in the fold by equating the GOP with folks like Limbaugh and Beck.

Fox News may be the ratings leader, but expressed as a percentage of households even Fox doesn't have nearly the same clout that newscasters used to have in the age of the Big 3 networks. Obama knows the overt bias of Fox News, and he doesn't think he needs to put up with it right now. He thinks that anyone who is upset over it probably wouldn't be voting for him, anyway. He's probably right.

Dork. · Oct 28, 2009, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

blah

I applaud your eloquence tonight. Bravo, chap!

hyteckit · Oct 28, 2009, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by ebuddy

... whatever it was hyteckit read in the Daily Kos, misread in the NY Times, or saw from an update of his buddy's on Facebook. I mean, it's Rush Limbaugh after all.

I'm been on Daily Kos like 10 times in my life.

I bet you read the site more than I do.