[besson3c]

What do you think of some of the stats and overall argument here?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/op...f.html?_r=1&em

[BadKosh]

It didn't consider similar lifestyles, and it seemed more incidental, lacking detailed info on how these surveys were done.

[turtle777]

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics

Btw, I really don't understand what the author of the linked article is intending to say in his last two paragraphs:

That brings me to an apology.

In several columns, I’ve noted indignantly that we have worse health statistics than Slovenia. For example, I noted that an American child is twice as likely to die in its first year as a Slovenian child. The tone — worse than Slovenia! — gravely offended Slovenians. They resent having their fine universal health coverage compared with the notoriously dysfunctional American system.

As far as I can tell, every Slovenian has written to me.

Huh ?

So if he can't even tell if ALL Slovenians have written to him or not, why would I take anything else that he writes seriously ?
See what I did there ?
-t

[Dork.]

Sorry, besson3c, I can't hear you over the chants of "USA! USA! USA!" that seem to spring up whenever Americans compare ourselves to other countries.

But I do know what we should be asking -- if Nick Kristof hates America and its health care system so much, why doesn't he just leave (move to Slovenia, maybe), and let those of us who love America and never question it live in peace?

[turtle777]

Btw, before the Slovenia bashing gets out of hand: Slovenia is indeed a remarkable country in terms of economic development.

Consider, Slovenia has been a democracy and free market economy for less than 20 years, but their standard of living is already higher than many old members of the EU. It is ranked above countries like Portugal or Czech Republic.

Just saying.

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Sorry, besson3c, I can't hear you over the chants of "USA! USA! USA!" that seem to spring up whenever Americans compare ourselves to other countries.

But I do know what we should be asking -- if Nick Kristof hates America and its health care system so much, why doesn't he just leave (move to Slovenia, maybe), and let those of us who love America and never question it live in peace?

Maybe Kristof is a secret double foreign agent from Slovenia that is here to trick people into moving to Slovenia in an attempt to conquer America from the inside out?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics

Btw, I really don't understand what the author of the linked article is intending to say in his last two paragraphs:



Huh ?

So if he can't even tell if ALL Slovenians have written to him or not, why would I take anything else that he writes seriously ?
See what I did there ?
-t

Is your tongue-in-cheek meter broken?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Is your tongue-in-cheek meter broken?

Oh, I see, this was Tongue-in-ass-cheek. Oh so witty. I forgot to consider the quality of links that you provide.

-t

[besson3c]

Glad you showed up in my thread, Turtle. You always bring things up a notch...

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Glad you showed up in my thread, Turtle. You always bring things up a notch...

Bam!

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

and let those of us who love America and never question it live in peace?

Can you only love America if you never question the status quo?

[BadKosh]

I just want more detail. If other countries can do it better then I think it deserves closer inspection. If after close inspection of the authors sources etc it becomes clear that its a cut n paste Michael Moore type thing then I want know that too.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Huh ?

So if he can't even tell if ALL Slovenians have written to him or not, why would I take anything else that he writes seriously ?
See what I did there ?
-t

White text or not, are you srs?

[mduell]

I think it's fair to assume that there's at least one country that has better health care than the US, making the US not the best in the world.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Can you only love America if you never question the status quo?

You betcha! Don't listen to those folks who keep bashing America every chance they get, they're just jealous of all our Freedom. They probably don't even wear flag pins on their lapels. God Himself gave us our Constitution on stone tablets in 1776, how dare we question America*?

* = except, we can always bitch about how the government is getting too big and turning all Socialist and stuff. I think it's the eleventeenth amendment....

[ebuddy]

Someone tell me I have to read the OP's link to know that it's not simply;

• another hit piece on the US system using tired life-expectancy arguments that have been debunked ad nauseam.
• using mortality rates that do not account for the countries' varying means of measuring it.
• comparing the entire US system to countries with a population comparable to Texas
• chock full of anecdotal nonsense
• another failure to acknowledge the expense and insolvency of the systems used for comparison
• another partisan-induced blind focus on accessibility with no regard for availability. (i.e. it does little good to have a piece of paper saying 'congrats, you're covered' when no one can see you.)
• another attempt at addressing the "rationed care" concern by citing that it already is. Let's hear it again for REFORM!
• indictments against private insurers for claims denials failing to acknowledge that the 46% managed by the government has an even more dismal track record of claims denials.

I realize it has become fashionable to give up on one failed thread pushing nationalized care by posting another one, but it doesn't lend the notion any more credibility. The only thing less efficient than a government-run program is perusing the same antiquated nonsense trying to push one.

[besson3c]

yes ebuddy, you have it all figured out. All of those other countries have extremely shoddy health care, they just haven't seen the light and adopted our system. All of those stats about infant morality rates and life expectancies and everything else are just liberal skewed bias from international anti-American sources with a big fat liberal agenda to bring America to socialism with their fancy numbers that don't take into account car accidents and fat babies and stuff like that. It's probably the same group of liberal guys that pretend to be credible scientists that make up stuff about global warming, but good thing we can see through all of that!

It's a wonder that anybody living in a non-American country could live until they were 50, and the only reason that these people are happy with their health care systems is because they are living in a complete world of delusion and don't know any better. They just don't know how much better we have it here in our health care lottery and land of $25,000 toe amputations. As you said, the whole problem is overblown. Those freelancers in the other thread suggesting that people leave America if they want affordable health insurance are also delusional too, even though they're American.

Those same strong interest groups that are fighting tooth and nail against health reform would also gladly be for regulation that would break up their state by state monopolies so that we have some competition here.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm being sarcastic!


... Could you tell? Just wondering... I don't know if I'm very good at this.

P.S. that was sarcastic too.
P.P.S. no it wasn't.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Actually, the infant mortality rate figure is skewed. There's no internationally defined way to determine when you start counting a child as alive. Even in the US intra-state definitions are sketchy.

Until everyone's using the same ruler, these measurements do not tell the whole truth.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

In case you couldn't tell, I'm being sarcastic!

I believe the word you are looking for is sucktastic.

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

Actually, the infant mortality rate figure is skewed. There's no internationally defined way to determine when you start counting a child as alive. Even in the US intra-state definitions are sketchy.

Until everyone's using the same ruler, these measurements do not tell the whole truth.

Even with a generous margin of error, do you agree that America is not number one in this area?

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Even with a generous margin of error, do you agree that America is not number one in this area?

I'd say it's very likely in line with the rest of the first world, and ahead of areas such as Cuba. Maybe not first, but within a statistically irrelevant margin? Absolutely.

We are terrible in many regards, mostly having to do with whether or not you can afford to get the procedures that may save your life, but I'd still say it's the American lifestyle that's killing us, not our healthcare system.

[besson3c]

What do you make of the argument that there are a greater number of smokers in Europe?

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What do you make of the argument that there are a greater number of smokers in Europe?

They're not as fat as we are.

[chabig]

Who cares if we're number 1? I don't. I've already made it successfully through the birth process.

[besson3c]

From the article:

Opponents of reform assert that the wretched statistics in the United States are simply a consequence of unhealthy lifestyles and a diverse population with pockets of poverty. It’s true that America suffers more from obesity than other countries. But McKinsey found that over all, the disease burden in Europe is higher than in the United States, probably because Americans smoke less and because the American population is younger.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by chabig 

Who cares if we're number 1? I don't. I've already made it successfully through the birth process.

This thread is about the notion that America's health care is the "best in the world", overall.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I believe the word you are looking for is sucktastic.

-t

HAHAHAH! Sucktastic!! That's great! A play on words... Instead of sarcastic, sucktastic! I get it, good one!!

You're at your best when you are being funny and not combative! Keep it up!

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

yes ebuddy, you have it all figured out. All of those other countries have extremely shoddy health care, they just haven't seen the light and adopted our system.

Is this what I've said?

All of those stats about infant morality rates and life expectancies and everything else are just liberal skewed bias from international anti-American sources with a big fat liberal agenda to bring America to socialism with their fancy numbers that don't take into account car accidents and fat babies and stuff like that.

Not only have I not said any of this, but the fact is much of the difference from system to system is in the metrics themselves. I guess you have to be a xenophobic, right-wing, rabid anti-Obama zealot to see it.

It's probably the same group of liberal guys that pretend to be credible scientists that make up stuff about global warming, but good thing we can see through all of that!

Can we? I'm not sure we can. Of course, the only credible scientists are those of the preferred ideology.

It's a wonder that anybody living in America could live until they were 50, and the only reason that these people are happy with their health care systems is because they are living in a complete world of delusion and don't know any better. They just don't know how much better others have it elsewhere with 18-month waiting periods, doctor-shortages, limited treatment options, and assembly-line healthcare. As you said, the sky is raining uninsured poor people and amputees are dropping dead in front of emergency rooms.

See how easy being an intellectual copout is?

Those freelancers in the other thread suggesting that people leave America if they want affordable health insurance are also delusional too, even though they're American.

Are these the same delusionals who were going to leave the country when an (R) was in office? I wish they weren't idle threats. We could use some real debate around here.

Those same strong interest groups that are fighting tooth and nail against health reform would also gladly be for regulation that would break up their state by state monopolies so that we have some competition here.

I suppose the interest groups that are fighting tooth and nail for insurance reform and related funding would likewise love to see a free market solution that actually contains costs, breaks up the federal/state corporate marriage of quirky coverage requirements, ridiculous legal settlements, and limited competition.

In case you couldn't tell, I was being sarcastic.

I can understand the frustration that leads one to this degree of sarcasm, believe me.

[mduell]

Anyone found a good source of data on infant mortality worldwide? Breakdown by childs age, mothers education, parents martial status, parents income, parents ethnicity and religion, birth location (rural/urban, hospital/home), etc.

I think it's interesting to compare, far moreso than expected lifetime.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

See how easy being an intellectual copout is?

I think the cop out here is somehow thinking that those problems go with the territory of having any health care system that isn't ours, and that we don't have some of these same problems ourselves (e.g. assembly line health care).

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I think the cop out here is somehow thinking that those problems go with the territory of having any health care system that isn't ours, and that we don't have some of these same problems ourselves (e.g. assembly line health care).

Don't get me wrong besson, I agree with the need for reform. We disagree on what needs the most reformation. Proposals that fail to truly address competition and cost-containment constitute an even more bloated and expensive status quo.

[kangbroke]

I just watched Micheal Moore's sicko for the first time, And I must say it seems like USA may have the worst healthcare. Maybe the most sanitary but does not seem to be the best. I gotta get a passport and find out for myself, Im not big on doubting USA

[ebuddy]

I just got done listening to Rush Limbaugh and I must say; I don't know what all the hooey is about "healthcare crisis" in the US. It seems the US healthcare system is by far the most effective system on the globe. Certainly more effective than Cuba.

Nothing to see here... move along...

[BadKosh]

well With the 'improvements' in the new Pelosicare bill, you'll get to spend time in jail for not buying insurance! No wonder they snuck it through in the middle of the night. I guess it will get repealed the same way.

[Dork.]

This just in: the all-important 0-to-1 demographic poops all over the new Health Care bill!

YouTube - Maddie

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

well With the 'improvements' in the new Pelosicare bill, you'll get to spend time in jail for not buying insurance! No wonder they snuck it through in the middle of the night. I guess it will get repealed the same way.

Technically, if you don't buy insurance then you would need to pay some sort of fine, assessed when you pay your income taxes. If you then fail to pay the fine, you're subject to jail time, just as if you failed to pay your taxes. But most people who fail to pay taxes don't end up with jail time.

Under the House bill, if you elect not to buy insurance, and do not qualify for one of the "hardship exemptions", but pay the fine, then you have no further obligation (until next year, of course.)

I know that applying facts and logic to talking points kind of takes all the fun out of it, but oh well. I'm sure that if this Health Reform passes in its current form, some nutcase will refuse to buy insurance and refuse to pay the fine, and then be obstinate about it just to force the court to throw them in jail, all so Drudge can claim he was right all along.

(I'm not saying that the very concept of forcing everyone to buy insurance or pay a fine has no issues; if the bill passes in its current form I expect a quick challenge on constitutional grounds. That will be fun to watch. Then again, you would think that if the Federal Government has the power to tax everyone in the first place, it ought to have the power to do this.)

[BadKosh]

I can't wait for the constitutionality to be tested.

[screener]

I'm so glad I live in Canada.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

This just in: the all-important 0-to-1 demographic necromancys all over the new Health Care bill!

YouTube - Maddie

Heh...

I only wished I watched that clip with the sound off so that I didn't have to hear such FUD as Mommy's health care going away et all.

Is that really what congressional sessions are like, people just standing up and spewing rhetoric?

[Dork.]

Did the MacNN overlords do a keyword substitution for "poop" just for you, besson3c?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Did the MacNN overlords do a keyword substitution for "poop" just for you, besson3c?

Yes! Old news... I haven't figured out all of the smoke variants that have been censored yet though.

smoke read scat money matter skid crap poo

[besson3c]

"poop" <-- testing to see if it gets censored if it is in quotes

[besson3c]

feces

[Monique]

If you have the money you can have access to the best specialists on the planet but for regular people no. The best system is in Europe and great medecine in France.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Monique 

If you have the money you can have access to the best specialists on the planet but for regular people no. The best system is in Europe and great medecine in France.

Nope. They are not bad, but they are also unsustainable.

E.g. the German Health Care system, which on the surface looks really good, is broke. In the end, it will all be paid for by government debt, which is rolled over to consumers via inflation or higher taxes.

The result is a steady decline in standard of living, with more and more cuts in the health care system. It's a death spiral.

-t