[Chongo]

The first time Obama bowed, we were told it was a two handed shake.


Then we found out otherwise.


What will be the spin this time? Akahito is short and he wanted to look him in the eyes? He was admiring his Bruno Magli shoes?

[turtle777]

Maybe he likes to bend over ?

He's already bending over, and the economy is waiting to... Never mind.

-t

[Dork.]

Have either of you ever been to Japan?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Have either of you ever been to Japan?

While being the POTUS ?

No, that's still on my To Do list.

-t

[ort888]

Outrage!!!!!!1!!!

[Dork.]

Well, if you've been to Japan, you would know that bowing as part of a greeting is meant to convey respect (especially for elders), not submission. The Japanese were probably impressed with Obama's attempt to bow properly. Or maybe they expected it, given the fact that he spent some time living in East Asia when he was younger.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Maybe he likes to bend over ?

In Obama's Amerika, everyone likes bending over.

[SpaceMonkey]

I can't believe you thought this deserved a thread.

[besson3c]

This thread at least deserves a better topic, such as "Obama bowing all wrong"

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This thread at least deserves a better topic, such as "Obama bowing all wrong"

Yeah, do you see that arch to his back? BAD FORM. That is not how you do a proper bow. The back should be straight and the bow should occur from the waist. Someone give this guy instructions on how to bow properly before he causes an international incident with his bowing.

[besson3c]

Not to be confused with his bowling, which is different altogether, although I bet Obama would bowl all wrong too.

[Dork.]

You don't remember that from the campaign? If I recall correctly, he bowls like a retard. Or something like that.

[dcmacdaddy]

As for the likely brouhaha over an American President bowing before another leader, I say "So what?" Is President Obama bowing to Emperor Akihito a sign of subservience or a sign of respect for another culture's way of conducting ceremonial greetings? I think it is the latter.

As an American citizen I want a President who can project a subtle and nuanced understanding of other cultural practices. I think Obama is doing this in the bow to Emperor Akihito. I think it makes sense for our leader to project an understanding of and empathy for other nations' cultural practices. I don't want a President who travel overseas and expects every other foreign leader to greet him like an American would. That just seems like cultural snobbery by assuming that the American way is the best/only way and that other nations should adapt to how we act.



As for the political angle in all of this, I will just say this: If there are no posts from Chongo getting up in arms with President Bush kissing and holding hands with the Saudi King--greeting practices typical of Saudi culture--then he is simply a hypocrite looking for reasons to criticize Obama for engaging in greeting practices typical of Japanese culture. If engaging in behavior that is culturally "un-American" (bowing to a foreign leader or kissing/holding hands with a foreign leader) is a problem then there should be a record of Chongo posting criticisms of Bush's behavior with Saudi King Fahd. Is there a record of such complaints from him? Can anyone point to some posts of his where he criticized President Bush for kissing and holding hands with the Saudi King?

[besson3c]

I can't believe we elected this dork, Dork.. He can't bow, bowl, wear a bow tie, and probably can't even blow!

[Wiskedjak]

the President of the United States shouldn't show respect for other world leaders?

[macforray]

I believe that in some parts of the world, one is only to touch another with their RIGHT hand. The reason is that the LEFT hand is use for doing your personal hygiene stuff, if you know what I mean.

When I was in western Africa a number of years ago, we were given a cultural etiquette briefing, and there were a number of restrictions on the use of the left hand.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

As for the political angle in all of this, I will just say this: If there are no posts from Chongo getting up in arms with President Bush kissing and holding hands with the Saudi King--greeting practices typical of Saudi culture--then he is simply a hypocrite looking for reasons to criticize Obama for engaging in greeting practices typical of Japanese culture. If engaging in behavior that is culturally "un-American" (bowing to a foreign leader or kissing/holding hands with a foreign leader) is a problem then there should be a record of Chongo posting criticisms of Bush's behavior with Saudi King Fahd. Is there a record of such complaints from him? Can anyone point to some posts of his where he criticized President Bush for kissing and holding hands with the Saudi King?

I think it's called selective amnesia.

[dcmacdaddy]

Check out this link to see another pic of President Obama engaging in "un-American" behavior by dressing in tradtional Chinese/Malay clothing while overseas. When will the horrors end?
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Obama joins Apec Singapore summit


But wait . . . there's more.
At APEC Summit: Guess what President Bush and PM Lee are thinking… at theory.isthereason
This is a picture of President Bush at the APEC Summit in 2006 and he is wearing traditional Asian clothing. Will the shameful horrors of our Presidents' never end? Don't they know they must act "American" all the time and never show signs of respect for another culture? Looks like President Bush is not the only American president to go overseas and act in a manner considerate and dferential towards their Asian hosts. I say, the whole lot of them are un-patriotic for this behavior.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

In Obama's Amerika, everyone likes bending over.

Likes to? No. Required to? Yup.

[hyteckit]

Joe Wilson disrespected the POTUS by yelling "You Lie"

Joe Wilson disrespected the Office of the President, not Pres. Obama

[ebuddy]

Okay besson, I concede your point in the other thread.

[BadKosh]

He's not bowing, he's been sitting on the plane for hours and just needs to get out and stretch some.......Yeah! That's it.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I can't believe we elected this dork, Dork.. He can't bow, bowl, wear a bow tie, and probably can't even blow!

Don't be so harsh. So far, he has done a great job blowing it.

-t

[BadKosh]

Obama disrespected the office by LYING about things he actually didn't know one way or the other, since he had not read the 1500 page bill at that point. I'm sure he hasn't looked over the 2000 page version either. Obama seems to be lying every time his lips move.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

As for the likely brouhaha over an American President bowing before another leader, I say "So what?" Is President Obama bowing to Emperor Akihito a sign of subservience or a sign of respect for another culture's way of conducting ceremonial greetings? I think it is the latter.

As an American citizen I want a President who can project a subtle and nuanced understanding of other cultural practices. I think Obama is doing this in the bow to Emperor Akihito. I think it makes sense for our leader to project an understanding of and empathy for other nations' cultural practices. I don't want a President who travel overseas and expects every other foreign leader to greet him like an American would. That just seems like cultural snobbery by assuming that the American way is the best/only way and that other nations should adapt to how we act.



As for the political angle in all of this, I will just say this: If there are no posts from Chongo getting up in arms with President Bush kissing and holding hands with the Saudi King--greeting practices typical of Saudi culture--then he is simply a hypocrite looking for reasons to criticize Obama for engaging in greeting practices typical of Japanese culture. If engaging in behavior that is culturally "un-American" (bowing to a foreign leader or kissing/holding hands with a foreign leader) is a problem then there should be a record of Chongo posting criticisms of Bush's behavior with Saudi King Fahd. Is there a record of such complaints from him? Can anyone point to some posts of his where he criticized President Bush for kissing and holding hands with the Saudi King?

Sorry, but that is a greeting of equals. A full bow from the waist is a sign subservience, a head nod is one of respect.
Pres. Obama wore at Yarmulke a the Wailing Wall, no compalints here.

Sec. Clinton during the same trip.

Bush is not the only leader wearing "tradional Clothing" that's Putin behind him.


Lets see how the Sakorsys handled a visit to Spain. Courtesy of the (GASP) Huffington Post.

The President and First Lady of France arrive in Madrid, Spain on Monday(04/27/09)

Bruni-Sarkozy greeted Queen Sophia with two kisses instead of a curtsy

Greeting Spain's King Juan Carlos

Bruno-Sarkozy greeted Princess Letizia with two kisses

What, no bows or curtsies?

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Sorry, but that is a greeting of equals. A full bow from the waist is a sign subservience, a head nod is one of respect.

Opinion stated as fact.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Sorry, but that is a greeting of equals. A full bow from the waist is a sign subservience, a head nod is one of respect.

You obviously don't know Japanese manners. Giving a mere nod to the Emperor of Japan would be a severe insult. In Japan, the angle with which you bow depends on the social situation and the relative status and age of the two people. The angle at which you bow can range from a small nod to the full 90 degrees you see in the picture. 90 degree bows can be seen on a daily basis when shops open and close in Japan or during religious ceremonies in shrines and temples. On the other hand, if someone apologizes to you doing a 90 degree bow, then something very serious must have happened.
Bowing inappropriately, i. e. too much or too little, can be -- and in this particular situation will be -- considered an insult. This situation was very, very formal where the much older Emperor meets another head of state. I assume that the relative size of Obama and Akahito was another factor here, but this is just mere speculation on my part. To be honest, I don't know the etiquette at the Japanese Imperial court, but my guess is that Obama's behavior was in accordance with protocol. Knowing the Japanese, they have precise rules on how to greet the emperor.

Posting photos of the Sarkozys' greeting Spanish royalty does not tell us anything what the proper behavior in another cultural region is. Respecting local customs is common sense and using your own culture as a yard stick fails. Jewish customs are perhaps less alien to you than bowing in Japan, but in essence, it's the same thing.

We get that you don't like Obama, but how about complaining when you actually have something to complain about? There are plenty of more important topics to choose from, say the bail outs and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. If you want to construe some strange theories on Obama being subservient to the Japanese Emperor, knock yourself out, but don't forget your tin foil hat

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Sorry, but that is a greeting of equals. A full bow from the waist is a sign subservience, a head nod is one of respect.
Pres. Obama wore at Yarmulke a the Wailing Wall, no compalints here.

Sec. Clinton during the same trip.

Bush is not the only leader wearing "tradional Clothing" that's Putin behind him.


Lets see how the Sakorsys handled a visit to Spain. Courtesy of the (GASP) Huffington Post.

The President and First Lady of France arrive in Madrid, Spain on Monday(04/27/09)

Bruni-Sarkozy greeted Queen Sophia with two kisses instead of a curtsy

Greeting Spain's King Juan Carlos

Bruno-Sarkozy greeted Princess Letizia with two kisses

What, no bows or curtsies?

Well, it depends on what the cultural traditions are for meeting the King and Queen of Spain, doesn't it?
If bows and curtsies are called for by Spanish tradition then I would expect those acts to have been done by the Sarkozys or any other leader who comes to meet them.

As for trying to make an argument that Obama's behavior is inappropriate you defeat your own argument by posting the pic of him wearing a yarmulke at the Wailing Wall. That is the type of act of culturally aware/appropriate behavior I have been arguing a US President should engage in. Obama is not Jewish yet he embraces a Jewish tradition as a sign of respect for the Jewish culture while he is in Israel. Obama's (poorly performed) low bow from the waist is an identical action; Obama is not Japanese yet he embraces a Japanese tradition as a sign of respect for the Japanese culture while he is in Japan.

You're just looking for reasons to criticize Obama* and have fallen way short in this instance. Your own argument is self-contradictory and your statements reveal a deep lack of understanding that other cultures operate in manners different from us and that similar behaviors can have different meanings in different cultures.
*Even as someone who voted for Obama I think there are plenty of reasons to criticize him right now. But being a culturally aware/sensitive leader is NOT a reason I can think of to criticize him.

[dcmacdaddy]

Bah. I wrote all that crap above and Dork. nicely summarized the failings in your argument with four words and a simple pic.
I shouldn't have even bothered to post. Ah well.

[Dork.]

The funny thing is, it was either Chongo or BadKosh who came up with that phrase first. I think it was when I said that Fox News had an overt Conservative/Republican slant in its reporting.

As for the picture, I was getting ready to watch the Bills game, I expect to see plenty of those little yellow flags today.

[Chongo]

You know what, you guys are right. it is appropriate for an elected officials to show respect for tradition.


Pelosi

Vicente Fox

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Okay besson, I concede your point in the other thread.

You mean the Sesame St. thread? The point about how some will attack everything that Obama does, big and no matter how small even if it borders on silly and trite, just because?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Obama disrespected the office by LYING about things he actually didn't know one way or the other, since he had not read the 1500 page bill at that point. I'm sure he hasn't looked over the 2000 page version either. Obama seems to be lying every time his lips move.

I hear that he lied about being born in this country too!

[imitchellg5]

This thread bores me.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

You know what, you guys are right. it is appropriate for an elected officials to show respect for tradition.

Pelosi and Fox are both Roman Catholic, I'm sure that has something to do with it.

[besson3c]

Why is it that you pretty much have to be associated with Christianity to be a politician anyway? How many atheists or non-Christians are in politics anyway?

[Dork.]

Joe Lieberman says you can be non-Christian and not an athiest at the same time and still get elected.

[besson3c]

Yeah, but he's like the only dude I can think of... There are probably a couple more, but certainly there is an oversized proportion of Christian influence.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why is it that you pretty much have to be associated with Christianity to be a politician anyway? How many atheists or non-Christians are in politics anyway?

Because I want a representative who represents me, and some dude who worships, like, cows clearly does not share my good Christian values.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Joe Lieberman says you can be non-Christian and not an athiest at the same time and still get elected.

To be an atheist don't you have to be non-Christian?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Because I want a representative who represents me, and some dude who worships, like, cows clearly does not share my good Christian values.

Ahhh, now who's being sarcastic?

Who represents non-Christians?

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

To be an atheist don't you have to be non-Christian?

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 3 characters.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

To be an atheist don't you have to be non-Christian?

There are people out there who call themselves atheist Christians. I have no idea what they mean by that though.

[besson3c]

Aren't you lucky to have me around to make things interesting, imitchellg5? I mean, you were just complaining about this thread being bored when *BAM*... besson3c!

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Ahhh, now who's being sarcastic?

Who represents non-Christians?

I wasn't being sarcastic.

[besson3c]

So then, if you aren't Christian who represents you then Chuckit? Is it possible for a politician to have good values that aren't Christian? What values are you speaking of, specifically? What happens if my values are different than yours?

[Chuckit]

I said I wasn't being sarcastic; I didn't say I was speaking for myself. A candidate could break into my house and beat me within an inch of my life and not even notice the lost vote. I was speaking for the American majority, which is who you need to appeal to in order to get elected. Most people are at least culturally Christian, if not very pious. They believe that our values come from Christianity and most other religions are "weird" to some degree or another. Jews are kind of almost OK, since they believe in half the Bible, but a Hindu or Wiccan politician is just too hard to relate to for most people.

If you want a "weird" candidate to get elected, then you need to get all the similarly weird people to move into the same district and hope there are enough of them.

[besson3c]

Okay, I agree with you Chuckit. I suspected you were playing Devil's advocate a little...

I think the real problem is that, say, Chinese and Indian Americans are not eligible to run for office until at least one generation has passed to ensure that the individual was born in the US. By then, I'm not sure that many would feel welcome in the political process given their difference in heritage and the xenophobia felt by just enough people to make their candidacy difficult.

How many Chinese or Indian politicians are there, I wonder? How many of them have not been Americanized? Do any still have their accents?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Aren't you lucky to have me around to make things interesting, imitchellg5? I mean, you were just complaining about this thread being bored when *BAM*... besson3c!

That's why I love you.™

[besson3c]

Was I the only one that felt that it was rather offensive that so many Americans were uncomfortable with the notion of Obama not being Christian? Like there is something inherently wrong with being a Muslim, and that being a Muslim goes hand in hand with being a radical Muslim?

How many of these same sorts of people could tell the difference between a Hindu and somebody of the Islamic faith? Obama being from Kenya could have just as easily been Hindu or Baha'í, and according to the Wikipedia the majority of the Kenyan population is Christian anyway.

The whole conflating Obama with being Muslim just because he looks funny is not only embarrassingly ignorant, but it is also xenophobic. Going to the next step and labeling him as a radical Muslim is beyond ignorant and offensive, and arguably racist.

I don't know why this was as tolerated as it was.