[ebuddy]

A most unfortunate gaffe. This is the stuff that becomes your legacy and all, but negates the incredible good you've done throughout your life.

Millions of Haitians are mourning, and praying, and crying out to the Judeo-Christian God for the most basic needs and IMO nothing other than solidarity and gratuity is in order.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by OAW 

I hear what you are saying. But it's not just me. Pat Robertson's comments are all over the national news because he is such a high-profile figure. While his political stature is not what it once was (like when he was a presidential candidate) ... to call him "irrelevant" is IMO "minimizing" him waaaaaaay more than I'm "elevating" him.

OAW

The media would sell it's own mother to make controversy. You know better.

[RobOnTheCape]

I keep seeing the words "good works" associated with this guy. However, if any of the reports of Robertson owning diamond mines in these African nations(control by dictators), using tax exempt planes to shuttle back and forth to these nations not for humanitarian reasons, but to fill his coffers from these mines, heavy campaign contributions to Virgina lawmakers who has not allowed investigation reports open which address these allegations, are true, then this guy has been a fraud for a long time. Any "good works" this guy may have claimed to have done are negated since he's pretty much been thieving the whole time. A local hood who doles out turkeys on Thanksgiving to moms while selling crack to there kids is still a hood who should be seen as such. Robertson has just taken it to another level.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape 

I keep seeing the words "good works" associated with this guy. However, if any of the reports of Robertson owning diamond mines in these African nations(control by dictators), using tax exempt planes to shuttle back and forth to these nations not for humanitarian reasons, but to fill his coffers from these mines, heavy campaign contributions to Virgina lawmakers who has not allowed investigation reports open which address these allegations, are true, then this guy has been a fraud for a long time. Any "good works" this guy may have claimed to have done are negated since he's pretty much been thieving the whole time. A local hood who doles out turkeys on Thanksgiving to moms while selling crack to there kids is still a hood who should be seen as such. Robertson has just taken it to another level.

"If these allegations are true"...
"He's been thieving the whole time"...

Your speculations, accusations, and opinions are noted regardless of their credibility. Operation Blessing has served over 200 million people, in more than 100 countries, and all throughout the US to a tune exceeding $1.5 billion dollars.

Let me guess, you've thrown a few bucks in a Salvation Army bucket once and now you're the arbiter of authentic philanthropy? Give me a friggin' break.

[ghporter]

Pat Robertson has been at least the figurehead for a number of organizations that have done Good Works. On the other hand, he never says anything about these organizations that gets printed. All that gets publicity is his stupid remarks like the one in question. Is it possible that he actually believes this rot? Or is he simply using it to get publicity? In either case, stupid statements like this don't help his "good works" at all.

[RobOnTheCape]

They are not my allegations: One of Pat Robertson's Latest Frauds

"OFFICIALS MUM ON ROBERTSON DIAMOND MINE OPERATION PROBE

A yearlong investigation of televangelist Pat Robertson's activities in Africa is now over, but state officials are sitting on the final report pending a review by attorneys, reports the Virginian-Pilot newspaper. The probe focused on possible inappropriate activities involving Robertson's Operation Blessing outreach, and a private corporation he operated known as the African Development Co. Based in Zaire, the firm was established by Robertson during the rule of the late dictator Mobutu Sese Seko. The two men established close ties, and Mobutu wined and dined Robertson during one visit to the country; ADC also received vast forestry and mineral concessions, but the diamond mining operation eventually went bankrupt. Mobutu, after a quarter-century of iron fisted rule, died last year in exile from cancer. He left Zaire bankrupt and impoverished, and since 1994 had even been considered persona non grata in the United States.

In April, 1997 two pilots who worked for Operation Blessing charged that planes linked to Robertson and his ministry flew mostly to haul equipment for ADC's private diamond operation. Robert Hinkle, the chief pilot told reporter Bill Sizemore that of about 40 flights within Zaire during the half-year period he was there, "Only one or at most two" were related to the humanitarian mission of Operation Blessing. The rest were "mining-related."

"We got over there and we had 'Operation Blessing' painted on the tails of the airplanes, Hinkle told the Virginian-Pilot, "but we were doing no humanitarian relief at all. We were just supplying the miners and flying the dredges from Kinshasa out to Tdshikapa."

If so, that activity could jeopardize Operation Blessing's special tax exempt status. It also highlights Robertson's network of projects and corporations mixing religion, politics and private business.

The story in the Pilot prompted complaints by Virginia State Senator Janet Howell (D-Reston) and an investigation by the Virginia Office of Consumer Affairs. At issue is Operation Blessings charity exemption from the 4.5% retail sales tax, as well as a break from the 3% motor vehicle tax and the 2% aircraft sales tax.

Conflict of Interest?

Another aspect of the Robertson probe is the role of Virginia Attorney General Mark Earley, and Governor Jim Gilmore. Both men received campaign contributions from Robertson during the 1997 statewide elections; in addition, Robertson was a member of Gilmore's transition-advisory team. Earley received $35,000 from Mr. Robertson, and Gilmore $50,000. Contributions to the Gilmore campaign from other associates of Robertson also attracted public concern.

According to the Pilot newspaper, the Attorney General's office is keeping the report on Robertson and Operation blessing sealed, insisting that while the investigation is over the contents still remain as "working paper" which are shielded by attorney-client privileges. Sen. Howell, expressing irritation by the continued secrecy, said that the investigatory process has dragged on "long enough," and noted that the tax exemption status for Operation Blessing is up for renewal again next year. "We need to have the facts," Howell added.

Another official, State delegate Barnie K. Day said that the "working papers" seal being used by the Attorney General was a ploy widely employed in Virginia. "There's nothing that says you can't be open," said Day, adding that the present laws permit "officials (to) hide things if they want to, but people who want to be open can still do it." The Pilot added that Del. Day suggested that the Attorney General should make public the results of the Operation Blessing investigation "to avoid any suggestion of favoritism toward Robertson."

Unanswered Questions: Evangelism or Just Doing Business?

Robertson was President and sole stock holder of African Development Co. which was chartered in Bermuda (a center for offshore banking-corporate activity) in June, 1992. In the summer and early fall of 1994, Robertson began soliciting support for the Operation Blessing outreach in Africa on his Christian Broadcasting Network, and eventually dispatched six volunteer teams of medical personnel to treat refugees from Rwanda. Donations were asked from viewers in order to fund a "Flying Hospital" plane.

In August, 1996, the Operation Blessing ministry purchased three DeHaviland Caribou planes. The ministry retained ownership of two of the cargo transports, while a third was transferred to another Robertson corporation known as Africa Air. What happened next has prompted considerable speculation. A month after purchasing the airplanes, all three (painted with the Operation Blessing name) were flown to Zaire, and reportedly put up for sale. From September, 1994 until February, 1995, the three planes were allegedly then used mostly in in-country flights ferrying mining equipment and support materials used by African Development Corp. According to the chief pilot, only two flights were related to any humanitarian enterprise; they consisted of a medicine delivery, and retrieval of stranded missionaries.

In October, 1994, Operation Blessing purchased a Lockheed L-1011 and began outfitting that plane as its "flying hospital." But the two Caribou planes, unsold and still linked to Operation Blessing, reportedly continued working mostly on behalf of ADC.

What was going on during this time period with Robertson and Mobutu? The African strongman had been in charge since 1964 when, with the help of the Central Intelligence Agency, he emerged successfully in the civil war which had torn apart the nation, formerly Republic of the Congo. In 1971, Mobutu renamed the country Zaire, and turned it into a base of operations for efforts to fuel the civil war in neighboring Angola. He quickly developed a reputation for ruthlessness and megalomania, renaming himself Mobutu Sese Seko Kuku wa za Banga, "the all-powerful warrior who, because of his enduring and inflexible will to win, will go from conquest to conquest leaving fire in his wake." For twenty years, his domestic policy outraged human rights advocates, and by 1993 his shoddy record resulted in the withdrawal of economic assistance from France, Belgium and even the U.S. In 1994, the U.S. Department of State charged that Mobutu was behind massive violations of human rights including torture, murder, censorship and religious persecution.

During this time, Mobutu also systematically drained Zaire of its money and natural resources, embezzling up to $6 billion dollars which he transferred to accounts in Switzerland and Belgium. In one year alone according to the World Bank, $400 million-- a quarter of the nation's entire export revenues -- mysteriously vanished off the books of the government run mining conglomerate. Mobutu was even dubbed the "President of Kleptocracy" for his thieving and predatory manners.

That didn't stop Robertson, though, from either defending the dictator or seeking financial gain in Zaire. Robertson continually tried to portray Mobutu as a loyal US ally in the war against international communism. He also emerged as Mobutu's close friend, and probably his most valuable asset in a deceptive campaign to maintain his stature with some ruling circles in the United States. Robertson was wined-and-dined by Mobutu on the dictator's presidential yacht, and entertained at one of his lavish estates. Robertson received extensive lumber and mining concessions along the upper Zaire River. He also operated a 50,000 acre farm outside of the capital city, Kinshasa.

Even with this, African Development Corp. lost money and had to be shut down. Robertson nonetheless maintained close ties with Mobutu, orchestrating a public relations effort in the United States to rehabilitate the dictator's image and obtain a Visa permit. In 1996, as rebels under the command of Laurent Kabila were closing in on Mobutu's last strongholds, Robertson reportedly dispatched a personal representative "offering his assistance and cooperation," according to the Pilot.

Robertson: Mobutu Groupie, "Schmoozing With Dictators"

This latest probe into Robertson's blending of politics, evangelism and business should also call into the question the televangelist's newly found commitment to human rights, especially as an ardent spokesperson for the Freedom From Religious Persecution Act.

Robertson has been using his "700 Club" program to constantly hit what he terms "religious persecution of Christians," particularly in Islamic countries -- an obstacle to his goal of a vast, worldwide evangelism effort by the year 2000. And Robertson's Christian Coalition has been an adamant supporter of FFRPA on Capitol Hill as well.

But does his enthusiastic boosting of FFRPA translate into a general commitment for human rights? Critics say no, especially in light of Robertson's close relationship in Africa, Asia and elsewhere with despotic ruling elites and dictators like Mobutu Sese Seko. It seems that, at least in Zaire, the lure of diamonds outshone the prospect of supporting human rights and political democracy.

**

You may forward, post or quote from this dispatch, provided that appropriate credit is given to AANEWS and American Atheists. Edited by Conrad Goeringer, cg@atheists.org. Internet Representative for American Atheists is Margie Wait, irep@atheists.org. "

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by OAW 

*snip* There's an old saying about Haiti. It's often described as "80% Catholic, 20% Protestant, and 100% Vodou". *snip*
OAW

Interesting stuff. Thanks for the informative post.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape 

They are not my allegations: One of Pat Robertson's Latest Frauds
"OFFICIALS MUM ON ROBERTSON DIAMOND MINE OPERATION PROBE
You may forward, post or quote from this dispatch, provided that appropriate credit is given to AANEWS and American Atheists. Edited by Conrad Goeringer, cg@atheists.org. Internet Representative for American Atheists is Margie Wait, irep@atheists.org. "

Again, what we know for certain is that Operation Blessing has served over 200 million people, in more than 100 countries, and all throughout the US to a tune exceeding $1.5 billion dollars.

What is alleged is possible inappropriate activities involving Robertson's Operation Blessing outreach, and a private corporation he operated known as the African Development Co. Based in Zaire. By all means though, all credit for the above copy-paste is given to the obscure Virginian rag, skeptictank.org, and the Atheist News organization.

[RobOnTheCape]

Yes I saw who the authors of the article are, and they certainly do have an agenda, but it appears they gleaned their article from a Virginia paper which doesn't appear to be a "rag". Nevertheless it seems the facts are there that there is an investigation underway, and it seems we can connect the dots and makes assumptions based on those dots. Not assumptions of guilt or innocence, but just that there were sufficient grounds to launch an inquiry.

The message that steroids were rampant in MLB wasn't taken seriously because it came from Jose Canseco. We later learned he was dead on right. Same for that rag which reported Edwards was having an affair. Rags and blowhards can be right too.

Question is what if this report does come out and all the allegations are correct, How should we look at his entire body of works then? Maybe someone out there can determine if true are there grounds for criminal actions against Robertson?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape 

Yes I saw who the authors of the article are, and they certainly do have an agenda, but it appears they gleaned their article from a Virginia paper which doesn't appear to be a "rag". Nevertheless it seems the facts are there that there is an investigation underway, and it seems we can connect the dots and makes assumptions based on those dots. Not assumptions of guilt or innocence, but just that there were sufficient grounds to launch an inquiry.

There is no shortage of news outlets quick to pick up on the indiscretions of influential Christian figures historically. The fact that you have one local paper with the exclusive and a couple of atheist news outlets citing the story does not lend it a great deal of credibility IMO. While the "dots" may not presume guilt or innocence, I think you'll find that your OP does in fact assume Robertson's guilt.

The message that steroids were rampant in MLB wasn't taken seriously because it came from Jose Canseco. We later learned he was dead on right. Same for that rag which reported Edwards was having an affair. Rags and blowhards can be right too.

This is certainly true and also true that rags and blowhards have perpetrated a great deal of fallacy such as Palin leaving her husband, flying baby terrorizes city, etc...

Question is what if this report does come out and all the allegations are correct, How should we look at his entire body of works then? Maybe someone out there can determine if true are there grounds for criminal actions against Robertson?

I think his entire body of work comes into question upon the conviction of laundering, but I think premature indictments and speculations of guilt are more the result of a motivated bias than a genuine interest in justice.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

By all means though, all credit for the above copy-paste is given to the obscure Virginian rag, skeptictank.org, and the Atheist News organization.

The Virginia-Pilot is not an obscure rag, but the largest paper in Southern Virginia (Richmond, Virginia Beach, Norfolk, etc). It's also not known for it's liberal bent.

The information may be bollocks, I have no idea, but to call the paper a rag points more to your ignorance than it's credibility.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

There is no shortage of news outlets quick to pick up on the indiscretions of influential Christian figures historically.

FTFY. News outlets survive on news but thrive on gossip, whoever is involved.

So you can stop with the intimations of anti-religious persecution. If Pat Robertson was just a local high-profile businessman you can be assured news organizations would still be interested in the possibility of him being involved in the "blood diamond" industry.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

The Virginia-Pilot is not an obscure rag, but the largest paper in Southern Virginia (Richmond, Virginia Beach, Norfolk, etc). It's also not known for it's liberal bent.

The information may be bollocks, I have no idea, but to call the paper a rag points more to your ignorance than it's credibility.

Shhh.

Don't tell ebuddy that the regional rag he criticizes has a higher circulation level than the main paper from his home state of Nebraska. And don't tell him that there is another regional rag in Virginia, the Richmond Times-Dispatch, that is in the list of top 100 newspapers by circulation along with the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

I don't think he's morally or intellectually bankrupt at all. He's getting wobbly with his age, and he sees religious context in events where I don't. But whatever.

He has always been this crazy. It isn't age.

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

He doesn't hurt anyone, and I'd be willing to bet he is more generous with his money than most.

It's easy to be generous when you're a millionaire, more so when you produce nothing but religious blather on current events, and really easy when you make pacts with dictators to sell blood diamonds mined by slaves.

People always have apologies for religious hate-mongers like Robertson, since they're "generous" or run third world missions or whatever. Generosity is the easiest virtue, which is why tyrants and zealots and terrorists use it so often as cover.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

There is no shortage of news outlets quick to pick up on the indiscretions of influential Christian figures historically.

There's an expression: "what goes around comes around." People who make a career of moralistic finger-pointing often deserve to be publicly pilloried.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Millions of Haitians are mourning, and praying, and crying out to the Judeo-Christian God for the most basic needs and IMO nothing other than solidarity and gratuity is in order.

So true.

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

A most unfortunate gaffe. This is the stuff that becomes your legacy and all, but negates the incredible good you've done throughout your life.

It's not a gaffe. His whole television show is nothing but tall tales and finger-wagging. He's a pathetic Simonizer.

[OAW]

I just thought I'd point out the prayer that was spoken by the Vodou priest Boukman at the genesis of the Haitian revolution that Pat Robertson .... and many other evangelical Christian organizations to this day ... consider to be the infamous "pact with the devil":

The God who created the earth; who created the sun that gives us light. The God who holds up the ocean; who makes the thunder roar. Our God who has ears to hear. You who are hidden in the clouds; who watch us from where You are. You see all that the white has made us suffer. The white man's god asks him to commit crimes. But the god within us wants to do good. Our God, who is so good, so just, He orders us to revenge our wrongs. It's He who will direct our arms and bring us the victory. It's He who will assist us. We all should throw away the image of the white men's god who is so pitiless. Listen to the voice for liberty that speaks in all our hearts.

Yeah that's real Satanic stuff right there.

OAW

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

Shhh.

Don't tell ebuddy that the regional rag he criticizes has a higher circulation level than the main paper from his home state of Nebraska. And don't tell him that there is another regional rag in Virginia, the Richmond Times-Dispatch, that is in the list of top 100 newspapers by circulation along with the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot.

A. Omaha World Herald = 184,150 daily circulation, Virginia-Pilot = 183,024 daily circulation. It's an obscure rag. How do I know?
B. the Richmond Times-Dispatch didn't pick up the story.

C. If you want to be argumentative, have an argument.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

There's an expression: "what goes around comes around." People who make a career of moralistic finger-pointing often deserve to be publicly pilloried.

Meh. I have a feeling disagreement, scrutiny, accusations, etc... aren't going to ruin his day or he'd have stopped doing what he does decades ago.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

So you can stop with the intimations of anti-religious persecution.

You're dramatizing.

If Pat Robertson was just a local high-profile businessman you can be assured news organizations would still be interested in the possibility of him being involved in the "blood diamond" industry.

If Pat Robertson was a local high-profile businessman in a "blood diamond" industry, all of the local rags would be on to him and none of the atheist orgs would give a rip.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

A. Omaha World Herald = 184,150 daily circulation, Virginia-Pilot = 183,024 daily circulation. It's an obscure rag. How do I know?
B. the Richmond Times-Dispatch didn't pick up the story.

C. If you want to be argumentative, have an argument.

You're slipping pal. You're not doing the thorough fact-checking you could, and should, be doing. Did you happen to see the reference for the stats on the Wikipedia page for the Omaha World Herald? Those circulation figures--the ones that put the Omaha World Herald at 184,150--are from 2007. The stats I linked to are from four months ago and show the Omaha World Herald with 11,000 less daily subscribers than the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot.


PS: If you want to prove a point, be sure you actually have a point to prove.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

You're dramatizing.

Ha! HA! HA1 HA! ha! Ha! Ha1 Ha! HA!! Ha!1

The guy claiming someone is a victim of religious persecution is throwing around the accusation of being dramatic. Pot. Meet, Kettle.

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

If Pat Robertson was a local high-profile businessman in a "blood diamond" industry, all of the local rags would be on to him and none of the atheist orgs would give a rip.

So, atheist-oriented news organizations only cover religious or atheist subjects? (I'm not saying this ins't the case with this particular group but you really need to reign in your generalizations. You're really slipping in the debate department and becoming a lot less fun to debate with. And I like debating with you. You give me a challenge. I mean that.)