[Orion27]

I've often wondered why the intractable poverty in Haiti? Even relative to other Caribbean countries conditions there are just abominable. Perhaps this earthquake has a silver lining. How would you rebuild Haiti? Are there any natural resources to exploit? The country has to be rebuilt including it's governing structure. Can Haiti be lifted out of poverty without becoming another ward of the international community? What economic model should Haiti pursue? Think Japan after Hiroshima. We already have the only people on the ground who can provide security, food, water and medical care efficiently, with minimal corruption. How do we proceed from here?

[OAW]

That's a good question. And the answer is the combination of a lot of factors. For most of its history Haiti as been manipulated by larger powers. As we know, Haiti is the only country in the Western Hemisphere to have a successful slave revolution. Additionally, it is the only nation in the region to be founded by such action. And there are those who contend that this was simply unacceptable to the European Powers (including the US) that had slavery. So Haiti had to be recaptured or at least contained to discourage other slave revolutions in their territories. Haiti gained its independence from France and defeated Napoleon's efforts to recapture it. The US played both sides against the middle and supplied both the Haitian rebels and the French. Haiti drove out both Spanish and British invaders as well. In order to stave off continuing French efforts to recapture Haiti, the Haitian government agreed to a treaty where they would basically pay France 150 million gold francs (90 million was actually paid) as compensation for its lost slave trade profits. US, British, French, and German forces have raided the Haitian national treasury and made off with sizable sums of money.

On top of all this, Haiti has a long history of coups. 32 in its 200 year history. Many (if not most) of which were fomented and supported by the US, Germany, Britain, and/or France. The US occupied Haiti for nearly twenty years in the early 1900s. And then there is the fact that throughout most of Haiti's history the overwhelmingly black majority (95%) has been exploited economically by the mulatto (and white immigrant) class backed by these same European powers. Contrary to popular belief, there is money in Haiti. The problem has been that it's always been concentrated in the hands of the elite while the rest of the population lives in abject poverty. From 1957 - 1986 the Duvalier family rose to power by tapping into the justifiable resentment in the black majority toward the mulatto class ... but Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier and to a lesser extent his son Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier instituted a corrupt dictatorship along with a full-blown reign of terror against perceived political opponents (real or imagined) by death squads. This contributed to a significant "brain drain" as many educated or better off Haitians fled. In 1990, former Roman Catholic priest Jean-Betrand Aristide was elected by a 2/3 majority only to be overthrown by a coup in 1991. A political standoff ensued for 3 years until 1994 when the US negotiated a deal where the Haitian military leaders went into exile, US forces peacefully entered Haiti and restored Aristide to power. Aristide's term ended in 1995 but he was re-elected again in 2000. However, in 2004 he was ousted again by a paramilitary coup ... which some say (including Aristide) was supported by the US, Canada, and France (i.e. Ottawa Initiative). He was removed from his home, forced to "resign", and flown into exile by a US Marine unit. Voluntarily according to the US. Involuntarily according to Aristide. Some say the issue ever since his restoration to power in 1994 was the US demand (presumably for its assistance) that Haiti selloff its state-owned enterprises (including the power and telecommunication systems) and Aristide's refusal to do so on the grounds that it would further impoverish majority of the people of Haiti and enrich the Haitian elite. Then there was Aristide's demand that France pay 21 billion in reparations to Haiti for the 90 million in gold francs (in today's money) that Haiti paid to France to secure its freedom. Something that did not go over very well in France. An interim government was installed, eventually replaced by the 2006 election of Rene Preval (an long-time ally of Aristide who remains very popular). The UN has also had a "stabilization mission" in the Haiti ever since the events of 2004. And of course, in 2010 Haiti suffered a massive earthquake that leveled the capital city and killed tens (perhaps hundreds) of thousands of people.

Where do we go from here? Another good question. The only observation I could make is that if the development efforts are geared towards the interests of the Haitian elite instead of the interests of the Haitian majority then the country will continue to wallow in poverty.

OAW

[Doofy]

You could have just said "It's all whitey's fault".

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Take it for what it's worth?

Our Role in Haiti's Plight

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You could have just said "It's all whitey's fault".

Exactly.

While I don't want to minimize the influence of foreign powers on policies, economies and politics, EVERY country is under the same pressure.
It's not like the "white man" just picked on Haiti, and left all other islands in the Caribbean alone.

I'm convinced they had more than a fair share in f*cking it up.

-t

[olePigeon]

Post devil economy.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Take it for what it's worth?

Our Role in Haiti's Plight

Oh that will never do. It's much to easy to ignore historical realities and make inane and snide comments like this ....

Originally Posted by doofy

You could have just said "It's all whitey's fault".

OAW

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Take it for what it's worth?

Our Role in Haiti's Plight

So what we need is a Haitian Castro, taking the authors welcome to take his comparison
to Cuba on board as a solution to Haiti's problems? He may have a point. I've heard talk
of evacuations to Guantanamo. We could repatriate them to Cuba.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I believe you may have mistook the author's point.

I don't think it was that Haiti necessarily needs a Castro. (Although, perhaps it was... but it doesn't matter.)

I think the point was that Haiti lacked the freedom from US/colonial meddling that Castro brought to Cuba.

(Not that I completely agree that this is/was totally the problem, but there is some level of truth to it I think.)

greg

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I think the point was that Haiti lacked the freedom from US/colonial meddling that Castro brought to Cuba.

That wouldn't explain why all other islands in the Caribbean are doing so much better.

They never got a Castro either.

-t

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Post devil economy.

The devil is in the details.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

That wouldn't explain why all other islands in the Caribbean are doing so much better.

They never got a Castro either.

Perhaps the other islands in the Caribbean are doing better because most of them are still under whitey's watchful eye (i.e. some are parts of France, some are in the Commonwealth, some are Crown properties).

Perhaps Haiti isn't doing so well because it's been left to run itself. Like Africa. That's not doing too well either.

Maybe, just maybe, a properly administered European culture is what makes places rich, and a rejection of such values (such as would happen during a revolution) is what makes places poor.

[turtle777]

But, but, but....

... that's not politically correct.

Albeit, I agree

-t

[OAW]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

That wouldn't explain why all other islands in the Caribbean are doing so much better.

They never got a Castro either.

-t

The historical record clearly shows that Haiti has a long history of being politically and economically destabilized by outside powers. That is an undeniable backdrop. Having said that, most Caribbean islands rely on tourism as one of their primary sources of income. And the Haitian tourism industry was decimated in the early 1980s when US Centers or Disease Control officials singled out Haitians as being one of four "high risk groups" in the early stages of the AIDS epidemic. It has never recovered.

FOR HAITI'S TOURISM, THE STIGMA OF AIDS IS FATAL - New York Times

OAW

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Perhaps the other islands in the Caribbean are doing better because most of them are still under whitey's watchful eye (i.e. some are parts of France, some are in the Commonwealth, some are Crown properties).

Perhaps Haiti isn't doing so well because it's been left to run itself. Like Africa. That's not doing too well either.

Maybe, just maybe, a properly administered European culture is what makes places rich, and a rejection of such values (such as would happen during a revolution) is what makes places poor.

Well you see that's just the thing. Haiti has not been "left to run itself". The historical record is clear on this. But hey ... ignore it if you want to. Furthermore, there are lots of poor nations in the Caribbean. Better off then Haiti for sure ... but poverty is rampant in the Caribbean ... even with their "properly administered European culture".

OAW

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Well you see that's just the thing. Haiti has not been "left to run itself". The historical record is clear on this. But hey ... ignore it if you want to. Furthermore, there are lots of poor nations in the Caribbean. Better off then Haiti for sure ... but poverty is rampant in the Caribbean ... even with their "properly administered European culture".

OAW

Thanks for linking to the Times article. OAW, where would you begin to try to change things?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Well you see that's just the thing. Haiti has not been "left to run itself". The historical record is clear on this. But hey ... ignore it if you want to. Furthermore, there are lots of poor nations in the Caribbean. Better off then Haiti for sure ... but poverty is rampant in the Caribbean ... even with their "properly administered European culture"

Oh yeah. St Barts, Kitts and Nevis, BVI, Turks and Caicos, Caymans, Bahamas... All really really poor.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Thanks for linking to the Times article. OAW, where would you begin to try to change things?

Honestly right now the focus has to be on the basics. Food, water, and shelter. After that development efforts could center around restoring the tourism and agricultural (sugar and coffee) sectors. The manufacturing sector can also use more investment seeing as how the wage levels in Haiti rival that of China. Every now and again you see clothing with a "Made in Haiti" level because of this. The key though is that these efforts have to be rooted in boosting the incomes of the poor and establishing/expanding the middle class.

OAW

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Oh yeah. St Barts, Kitts and Nevis, BVI, Turks and Caicos, Caymans, Bahamas... All really really poor.

St. Barts - predominantly white population, never had a large slave population. Presently a playground for the rich and famous. Poverty not much of an issue.

St. Kitts and Nevis - the smallest nation in the Americas by both size and population. Poverty rate is 21.8 % per a 2008 study.

British Virgin Islands - Poverty rate of 22%. Considered "low by Caribbean standards" per this study. Which reinforces my contention that poverty is rampant in the Caribbean n'est-ce pas?

Turks and Caicos - Poverty rate of 26% per this study.

Cayman Islands - Strong financial services industry catering to the "secret bank account" crowd along with a thriving tourist industry. Poverty rate of 1.9% per this study.

Bahamas - Very strong tourism industry. Poverty rate of 9.3% per this report.

And of course there are other Caribbean nations with high levels of poverty that you conveniently failed to mention. All you have to do is stop outside of the resort walls to see the shantytowns in Jamaica, St. Maarten, St. Lucia, and Trinidad. Morever, there is also the fundamental issue of income inequality ... which affects the entire region including Haiti.

A comparison of the income share of the richest 10% to that of the poorest 10% places the Latin America and Caribbean region is a particularly isolated position, as the ratio of 46 to 1 in this region is twice that of 24 to 1 of sub-Saharan Africa and three times the overall ratio of 15 to 1 in industrial countries.

So I'll say it again. Poverty is rampant in the Caribbean. And income inequality is among the highest in the world. Are some countries as a whole doing better than Haiti? No doubt. But it doesn't have anything to do with "a properly administered European culture" as you stated because there are plenty of examples of such countries with significant poverty and massive income inequality. I think you'll have to try again.

OAW

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OAW 

British Virgin Islands - Poverty rate of 22%. Considered "low by Caribbean standards" per this study. Which reinforces my contention that poverty is rampant in the Caribbean n'est-ce pas?

Yar, of course it does. Right down to the $50m houses I can't afford to buy there.

With a few exceptions, the poor in BVI do not exhibit the characteristics that are traditionally
associated with poverty. Their housing, and basic facilities such as water and electricity,
school attendance and health levels are little different from those of not poor households.
These indicators are also highly favourable: access to safe water, electricity and sanitation is
universal, school enrolment for 5-16 year olds approaches 100%, life expectancy is high,
infant mortality is low, malnutrition is non-existent, infectious diseases and other medical
conditions commonly associated with poverty are almost non-existent.

What's your definition of "poverty", OAW?

According to official figures, 22% of people in the UK are living in poverty. Is the UK "poor"?
According to official figures, 58.5% of people in the USA will spend at least one year living below the poverty line in between the ages of 25 and 75. Is the USA "poor"?

Poverty rates are utter crap, mate. They're set by the average incomes of the place. If you're a millionaire living in a country of billionaires, you're below the poverty line for that location. Never mind that you're driving a Ferrari around - you're still below the poverty line.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Poverty rates are utter crap, mate.

Amen to that. We lived below the poverty level in the US and we had a car, a home with heat and air conditioning, cable TV, a phone and we had no problem with affording food. (without welfare BTW)

We need a new word for what we call poverty here so that the word poverty actually means something again.

[OldManMac]

Here's a good, and accurate, description of why Haiti is so poor.

Haitian Earthquake: Made in the USA | CommonDreams.org

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Here's a good, and accurate, description of why Haiti is so poor.

Haitian Earthquake: Made in the USA | CommonDreams.org

So, the meddling US government has been the major player in keeping Haiti poor?

Man, someone put them in charge of healthcare NOW!

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Here's a biased, and agenda pushing, description of why Haiti is so poor from a shill of a news outlet.

Haitian Earthquake: Made in the USA | CommonDreams.org

fixed

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Here's a good, and accurate, description of why Haiti is so poor.

Haitian Earthquake: Made in the USA | CommonDreams.org

Five years later, President Woodrow Wilson ordered troops to occupy the country in order to keep tabs on "our" investment.

Hmmm. Same guy who sold you all out to The Fed.
I wonder which party he was in?


You know the most amusing thing? If we bring national debt into the equation, I bet Haiti is actually more in the black than the US is. Easy to be "rich" when you print money and run a huge national debt.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

So Haiti is poor because of Woodrow Wilson. Sure.

[mduell]

Why wouldn't Haiti be poor?

If only they had some oil, they could sell it to all the planes sitting on the ramp at MTPP.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Well you see that's just the thing. Haiti has not been "left to run itself". The historical record is clear on this. But hey ... ignore it if you want to. Furthermore, there are lots of poor nations in the Caribbean. Better off then Haiti for sure ... but poverty is rampant in the Caribbean ... even with their "properly administered European culture".

OAW

I am all for holding accountable the colonial powers for their role in preventing countries from becoming self-ruled, but you are leaving out the fact that in Haiti they had several decades of profligate corruption and buggering of the national treasury under Duvalier and his son (better known as Papa Doc and Baby Doc). So, there is more than just the colonial powers to blame here.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Here's a good, and accurate, description of why Haiti is so poor.

Haitian Earthquake: Made in the USA | CommonDreams.org

From the same communist rag.

Top ten things the US can do to help Haiti.

2.Two. Do not allow US military in Haiti to point their guns at Haitians. Hungry Haitians are not the enemy. Decisions have already been made which will militarize the humanitarian relief - but do not allow the victims to be cast as criminals. Do not demonize the people.


Maybe the US Military should turn around right now? This kind of mindless propaganda is inflammatory and continues to feed into the mindset of the poor Haitian people. It's difficult to ignore the agitators. They should be hunted down like the dogs they are.

[turtle777]

Well, help is coming.

Exiled Haitian president Jean-Bertrand Aristide offers to return - Telegraph

Do you commies still think the US and other western countries should step aside and let that tyrant grab hold of the country ?

-t

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

I am all for holding accountable the colonial powers for their role in preventing countries from becoming self-ruled, but you are leaving out the fact that in Haiti they had several decades of profligate corruption and buggering of the national treasury under Duvalier and his son (better known as Papa Doc and Baby Doc). So, there is more than just the colonial powers to blame here.

And let's not forget that they still haven't grown out of their zombie-making activities. Burial alive is still the favoured methodology of the all-pervasive local mafia down there. Got a bit of a business and earned a bit of money without asking the mafia if it's OK? Say hi to you starring in an end-of-season CSI ep situation.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

I am all for holding accountable the colonial powers for their role in preventing countries from becoming self-ruled, but you are leaving out the fact that in Haiti they had several decades of profligate corruption and buggering of the national treasury under Duvalier and his son (better known as Papa Doc and Baby Doc). So, there is more than just the colonial powers to blame here.

Ummm .... how did I leave that out? It was right there in my first post.

Originally Posted by OAW

From 1957 - 1986 the Duvalier family rose to power by tapping into the justifiable resentment in the black majority toward the mulatto class ... but Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier and to a lesser extent his son Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier instituted a corrupt dictatorship along with a full-blown reign of terror against perceived political opponents (real or imagined) by death squads. This contributed to a significant "brain drain" as many educated or better off Haitians fled.

Hell I didn't even mention that Duvalier had US military and CIA backing.

OAW

[OAW]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Well, help is coming.

Exiled Haitian president Jean-Bertrand Aristide offers to return - Telegraph

Do you commies still think the US and other western countries should step aside and let that tyrant grab hold of the country ?

-t

"Commies" and "tyrant". How very McCarthy-like of you!

Anyway, when it comes to the political situation in Haiti ... I think there should be free and fair elections and whatever the outcome, the will of the people should be respected. Simple as that. Any objections?

OAW

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by OAW 

"Commies" and "tyrant". How very McCarthy-like of you!

Anyway, when it comes to the political situation in Haiti ... I think there should be free and fair elections and whatever the outcome, the will of the people should be respected. Simple as that. Any objections?

OAW

Yes. Because it will not work to relieve the suffering of the people.
The sad unspoken truth: Op-Ed Columnist - The Underlying Tragedy - NYTimes.com

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Yes. Because it will not work to relieve the suffering of the people.
The sad unspoken truth: Op-Ed Columnist - The Underlying Tragedy - NYTimes.com

Interesting how nothing in that op-ed piece advocated anything that was against holding free and fair elections and respecting the will of the people.

OAW

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Interesting how nothing in that op-ed piece advocated anything that was against holding free and fair elections and respecting the will of the people.
OAW

...But the programs that really work involve intrusive paternalism....

I'm not sure the culture has the capacity to escape the current ethos. Local elections sure, but within a framework of emergency "intrusive paternalism". Of course this is fraught with the inevitable political implications but what entity would be the most apolitical under civilian control? The US military, with special envoy such as a Colin Powell or a retired Barrack Obama, or the first black president Bill Clinton. One thing to remember, the military could hardly wait to leave. Good will starts
now. You may of course prefer Cuban, Venezuelan, or Brazilian substitute. But seeing as the US is underwriting 90% of the reconstruction, we get to decide how, when and why our money is spent.
We can start by immediately setting up HaitiCorps schools modeled after parochial/private concepts with discipline and the promise of security. The schools could be chartered to allow for diversity.
Then ...............

[Kerrigan]

No one is going to say what they actually think the reason is. I certainly won't.

[imitchellg5]

How can any Caribbean island nation be rich? Let's see.

1) They have to rely on exports and tourism for income.
2) They have to rely on imports for survival.
3) Every two weeks during the hurricane season they are completely destroyed.
4) For some reason everyone and their mom wants control of the government.
5) Besides infrastructure to deal with tourists, there is none.

But, to be honest, Haiti is stuck with being constantly poor because of witchcraft.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

...But the programs that really work involve intrusive paternalism....

I'm not sure the culture has the capacity to escape the current ethos. Local elections sure, but within a framework of emergency "intrusive paternalism". Of course this is fraught with the inevitable political implications.....

You think?

I submit that Haiti has had two centuries worth of outside powers trying to control its destiny. And clearly that hasn't been all that successful. Advocating more of the same sort of economic colonialism "intrusive paternalism" will surely result in the same bad outcome. Further enrichment for the elite, and continued poverty for the majority. Imagine what can be accomplished with sustained investments in the tourism, agricultural, and manufacturing sectors. Where employers did something novel like actually paying a decent wage and insist upon decent working conditions? As opposed to what they've traditionally done which is pay a buck or two per day (or less) to work in sweatshop conditions ... while the elite make tens of millions? The former enables the possibility of establishing an actual middle class. The latter simply does not.

OAW

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by OAW 

You think?

I submit that Haiti has had two centuries worth of outside powers trying to control its destiny. And clearly that hasn't been all that successful. Advocating more of the same sort of economic colonialism "intrusive paternalism" will surely result in the same bad outcome. Further enrichment for the elite, and continued poverty for the majority. Imagine what can be accomplished with sustained investments in the tourism, agricultural, and manufacturing sectors. Where employers did something novel like actually paying a decent wage and insist upon decent working conditions? As opposed to what they've traditionally done which is pay a buck or two per day (or less) to work in sweatshop conditions ... while the elite make tens of millions? The former enables the possibility of establishing an actual middle class. The latter simply does not.

OAW

No one is proposing what you envisage. There are probably many expatriate Haitians ready to invest
in a Haiti that is both secure and with a plan forward. One can not make everyone middle class at once. Corruption, security, basic services and infrastructure must be addressed. This is not going to happen from within. We can salve the wound if you wish but that guarantees the donor walks. The investor should not tolerate the status quo. I think your initial reaction to an honest proposal is short sighted. Your visage may be one of a nation rallying around a personality, a socialist paradigm and dependent population. My vision is true liberation. I think you're lowering the bar.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by OAW 

I submit that Haiti has had two centuries worth of outside powers trying to control its destiny.

I would submit that Haiti has had only about 150 years of "outside powers trying to control its destiny". You really need to be willing to assign more blame to the Duvaliers. Sure, the CIA probably aided them in staying in power but the Duvaliers were home-grown Haitians abuse their own, not some outside nation coming in and abusing the locals

Originally Posted by OAW 

Imagine what can be accomplished with sustained investments in the tourism, agricultural, and manufacturing sectors.

Absolutely. Which groups in Haiti do you think would be best suited to lead an investment program in the "tourism, agricultural, and manufacturing sectors"?
(And don't suggest it should be the U.S. or U.S. businesses doing the investing. Because if that scenario would come to pass, I want the U.S. government and U.S.-based businesses to do what's best for the U.S. and NOT what's best for Haiti. So, I am all for encouraging Haitian businesses to invest in their "tourism, agricultural, and manufacturing sectors" for the benefit of their people. But, if it is going to be the U.S. investing in Haiti, I want it to be for the benefit if the U.S. and not for Haiti.)

Originally Posted by OAW 

Where employers did something novel like actually paying a decent wage and insist upon decent working conditions?

Umm, it is up to the employees and NOT the employers to "insist upon decent working conditions" and insist upon "a decent wage". Businesses the world over will do whatever they can to pay their employees as little as possible and employees the world over must do whatever they can to get their employers to pay them a decent wage and provide decent working conditions.
(I'm not saying this approach to employee/employer relations is in any way laudable. I am just pointing out the obvious desires and responsibilities of the two parties involved.)

Originally Posted by OAW 

As opposed to what they've traditionally done which is pay a buck or two per day (or less) to work in sweatshop conditions ... while the elite make tens of millions?

What is preventing the employees from rising up and making their collective voice heard vis-a-vis their employers? I am serious. Haitians have Touissant L'Ouverture as their heroic founding figure. So they are more than capable of uprising and sustaining an opposition to the powers that be. So, why have they not come together to do so? why have normal, everyday Haitians not come together to fight employers that offer subsistence-level wages? The ability is there, so why hasn't it happened yet?

Finally, what can we former colonial powers do to help Haiti become more economically self-sufficient? Apart from giving them money, that is. Again, I have no desire to have the U.S. give money to another country and expect that gift to not benefit the U.S. in some way. If we are to "give" them something let it be guaranteed admission to some of the top business schools in this country for their "best and brightest" college graduates. If we are to "give" them something let it be some sort of special trade agreement that gives Haitian-owned businesses reduced tariffs on exports to the U.S. If we are to "give" them something let it be U.S.-government-subsidized purchases of U.S. made farm equipment to modernize their agricultural practices. (In essence, the U.S. gives them the right to buy U.S. made farming equipment at a discount with the U.S. government paying the difference between the discounted price and the full retail price. Such an arrangement benefits both the U.S. and Haiti.)

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

How can any Caribbean island nation be rich? Let's see.

1) They have to rely on exports and tourism for income.
2) They have to rely on imports for survival.
3) Every two weeks during the hurricane season they are completely destroyed.
4) For some reason everyone and their mom wants control of the government.
5) Besides infrastructure to deal with tourists, there is none.

I think #3 and #5 are the current back-breakers for Haiti. They need massive investment in their infrastructure but how can you invest in infrastructure when you have to plan for a chunk of it being destroyed on an annual basis?

If the U.S. could do anything to help Haiti I would like to see us make available to the Haitian government some of our academic expertise on how to design and build a lasting infrastructure (roads, electric power, fresh water supplies) in a "natural disaster zone". Or maybe the Haitian government could pay for this advisory service and the U.S. government pays for the American companies to go in and build the necessary, natural-disaster-proof, infrastructure. Again, such an approach benefits both Haiti and the U.S. and does not involve the U.S. government just handing out money with no say in how it is spent.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

No one is proposing what you envisage.

Perhaps. But when one explicitly advocates "intrusive paternalism" is it wrong to go by what the word actually means?

paternalism |pəˈtərnlˌizəm|
noun
the policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.

Here's an interesting excerpt from white paper discussing ending poverty in Haiti:

Haiti has been called a “republic of non-governmental organizations” that provide basic services, from external donors, which are usually the domain of the state. The result has been not development, but a kaleidoscopic array of activities that barely keep the country afloat.

With a legitimately elected government in place, the tendency to bypass the state has several deleterious effects. Priorities identified by Haitian actors have been eclipsed by externally prioritized goals; state institutions have remained weak, underdeveloped and deficient in their ability to generate revenue; reliance on NGOs has undermined state authority and accountability; and talented Haitian managers and technicians have opted to work with international organizations instead of the state.

So how is "intrusive paternalism" not just more of the same? And you know what they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

Originally Posted by Orion27 

One can not make everyone middle class at once.

Never said that you could.

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Corruption, security, basic services and infrastructure must be addressed.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Your visage may be one of a nation rallying around a personality, a socialist paradigm and dependent population. My vision is true liberation. I think you're lowering the bar.

How you got "socialist paradigm" out of anything that I said is beyond me?

OAW

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

I think #3 and #5 are the current back-breakers for Haiti. They need massive investment in their infrastructure but how can you invest in infrastructure when you have to plan for a chunk of it being destroyed on an annual basis?

If the U.S. could do anything to help Haiti I would like to see us make available to the Haitian government some of our academic expertise on how to design and build a lasting infrastructure (roads, electric power, fresh water supplies) in a "natural disaster zone". Or maybe the Haitian government could pay for this advisory service and the U.S. government pays for the American companies to go in and build the necessary, natural-disaster-proof, infrastructure. Again, such an approach benefits both Haiti and the U.S. and does not involve the U.S. government just handing out money with no say in how it is spent.

I agree with your idea; but the scale that an operation such as that would have to be gigantic to succeed. Of course, perhaps now with the world's focus temporarily on Haiti, perhaps this is the best time for any action to occur. It does seem that since Haiti got nearly wiped off the map in 2004 that there has been more international attention.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

I would submit that Haiti has had only about 150 years of "outside powers trying to control its destiny". You really need to be willing ti assign more blame to the Duvaliers. Sure, the CIA probably aided them in staying in power but the Duvaliers were home-grown Haitians abuse their own, not some outside nation coming in and abusing the locals

Again, you are arguing a point that is not in dispute. I never said the Duvaliers weren't home-grown nor did I say they didn't abuse the population ... through political violence in the case of Papa Doc and neglect and thievery in the case of Baby Doc. I will say this though. Haiti was broker than the 10 Commandments before the Duvaliers ... and it was just as broke after them. It's not as if Haiti was thriving and the Duvaliers ran it into the ground. Do trust and believe that I'm not in anyway trying to downplay the brutality and repressiveness of that regime. I'm just saying.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

Absolutely. Which groups in Haiti do you think would be best suited to lead an investment program in the "tourism, agricultural, and manufacturing sectors"?

Well when one is talking about investment you have to go where the money is at. And the only game in town in the Haitian elite. You might also be able to get some of the more well-to-do Haitian ex-patriates to pool together their resources towards this end. But again, the investment has to be structured in a way that is not exploitative of the poor majority as has typically been the case. This requires a good governance and a political structure supported by the people and relatively free from corruption.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

(And don't suggest it should be the U.S. or U.S. businesses doing the investing. Because if that scenario would come to pass, I want the U.S. government and U.S.-based businesses to do what's best for the U.S. and NOT what's best for Haiti. So, I am all for encouraging Haitian businesses to invest in their "tourism, agricultural, and manufacturing sectors" for the benefit of their people. But, if it is going to be the U.S. investing in Haiti, I want it to be for the benefit if the U.S. and not for Haiti.)

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I, for one, don't see any conflict between US businesses investing in Haiti for the mutual benefit of said businesses and the people of Haiti. What would be wrong with trade that benefits the US and Haiti? What would be wrong with a US business building a luxury resort that hired Haitian workers and actually payed them a decent salary and still made a nice return on its investment?

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

Umm, it is up to the employees and NOT the employers to "insist upon decent working conditions" and insist upon "a decent wage". Businesses the world over will do whatever they can to pay their employees as little as possible and employees the world over must do whatever they can to get their employers to pay them a decent wage and provide decent working conditions.
(I'm not saying this approach to employee/employer relations is in any way laudable. I am just pointing out the obvious desires and responsibilities of the two parties involved.)

This is true. But it's also why we need government to set the ground rules for the market. Striking the right balance between not stifling business while also protecting the rights of workers (who inherently have less power) in order to serve the common good.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

Finally, what can we former colonial powers do to help Haiti become more economically self-sufficient? Apart from giving them money, that is. Again, I have no desire to have the U.S. give money to another country and expect that gift to not benefit the U.S. in some way. If we are to "give" them something let it be guaranteed admission to some of the top business schools in this country for their "best and brightest" college graduates. If we are to "give" them something let it be some sort of special trade agreement that gives Haitian-owned business reduced tariffs on exports to the U.S. If we are to "give" them something let it be U.S.-government-subsidized purchases of U.S. made farm equipment to modernize their agricultural practices. (In essence, the U.S. gives them the right to buy U.S. made farming equipment at a discount with the U.S. government paying the difference between the discounted price and the full retail price. Such an arrangement benefits both the U.S. and Haiti.)

I wouldn't disagree with anything you just said there. Except that in a situation like this I think it's appropriate for the US to "give" Haiti humanitarian aid without looking for some reciprocal benefit. But beyond that ... those are all good ideas.

OAW

[OAW]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

I think #3 and #5 are the current back-breakers for Haiti. They need massive investment in their infrastructure but how can you invest in infrastructure when you have to plan for a chunk of it being destroyed on an annual basis?

If the U.S. could do anything to help Haiti I would like to see us make available to the Haitian government some of our academic expertise on how to design and build a lasting infrastructure (roads, electric power, fresh water supplies) in a "natural disaster zone". Or maybe the Haitian government could pay for this advisory service and the U.S. government pays for the American companies to go in and build the necessary, natural-disaster-proof, infrastructure. Again, such an approach benefits both Haiti and the U.S. and does not involve the U.S. government just handing out money with no say in how it is spent.

Agreed.

OAW

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

No one is going to say what they actually think the reason is. I certainly won't.

If you won't say it, then obviously you lack confidence and conviction in what you're thinking. Which renders it irrelevant.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Can Haiti be lifted out of poverty without becoming another ward of the international community?

How do we proceed from here?

No


It starts with building a better education system there.
Teach them to stop having so many damned babies. Teach them either Spanish or English rather than a dying worthless language like French or a bastard language like Creole. Without that Haiti is screwed.

[Chongo]

On this morning's "CBS Sunday Morning" (1/17/10) The dealt with this topic. As a result of the "Haitian Revolution," France demanded, and received, repayment for losses incurred as a result of the revolution. According to the report, it took until 1947.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

How can any Caribbean island nation be rich? Let's see.

1) They have to rely on exports and tourism for income.
2) They have to rely on imports for survival.
3) Every two weeks during the hurricane season they are completely destroyed.
4) For some reason everyone and their mom wants control of the government.
5) Besides infrastructure to deal with tourists, there is none.

But, to be honest, Haiti is stuck with being constantly poor because of witchcraft.

But... zombies = free labor, so they've got THAT going for them.

Seriously, it's all about infrastructure and human capital (part of the infrastructure). There are plenty of resources in most of the island nations to make a go of it, but they're locked up by the ruling families. Haiti is just one of the worst. They keep the people poor and ignorant for the same reasons the Democrats/Leftists worldwide do -- power.

The real question is "what's next"? How much involvement should the US have after "investing" in the recovery? If we have none, this will just happen again. If we do anything, any problems will be blamed on us.

I think I'm for annexing them as the 51st state, or 52nd after PR. That way we'd at least be able to vacation there without a passport. What ever happens is our fault anyway, we might as well get some sugar cane production out of it.