[Big Mac]

Are we looking at direct confrontation between the United States and China over Taiwan? How long can we continue supporting Taiwan when the United States is dependent on China to fund a significant portion of its reckless spending? It seems like America will have to back down if China takes advantage of the fiscal leverage it has over us.

[Doc HM]

The US can't afford to stand up to China, not physically so near China's own turf, or financially anywhere. If things go too far, Taiwan is on it's own.

They can look forward to Hong Kong like existence as a special economic zone.

[Big Mac]

We could stand up financially if we would dramatically cut government down to size across the board (everything - both discretionary and non-discretionary), but we all know that's not going to happen.

[Ω]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

The US can't afford to stand up to China, not physically so near China's own turf, or financially anywhere. If things go too far, Taiwan is on it's own.

But I thought the US was the most powerful nation on the planet? Or are you willing to give up you ideals because of financial hardship.

[OreoCookie]

No, BigMac, the Western world couldn't: most of the electronics you buy these days are built in China or Taiwan (the latter being the reason why Taiwan is as important as it is to us).

Cutting down government would do nothing to untangle this dependency.

The thing that's working for us, though, is that China is as dependent on us as we are on them. They don't have the power to innovate on our scale yet. Our consumption of stuff keeps their people employed. So it's a two-edged sword.

[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

So it's a two-edged sword.

Indeed. But it's a two edge sword with one edge getting rapidly blunter and one edge getting much much sharper.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

No, BigMac, the Western world couldn't: most of the electronics you buy these days are built in China or Taiwan (the latter being the reason why Taiwan is as important as it is to us).

Cutting down government would do nothing to untangle this dependency.

I'm not arguing for complete independence from China, only for substantial cuts in government so that we can live within a truly balanced budget and not have to rely on foreign subsidization of our debt from China.

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

They can look forward to Hong Kong like existence as a special economic zone.

No chance in our short lifetimes.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm not arguing for complete independence from China, only for substantial cuts in government so that we can live within a truly balanced budget and not have to rely on foreign subsidization of our debt from China.

Then we'd have to stop giving tax breaks to some of the largest corporations in America, and they couldn't fatten their bottom lines at our expense. We'd also have to start paying vastly more for the use of our roads, the educational system, our water and sewer systems, and on, and on (which we're going to have to pay more soon anyway, as they're crumbling in front of our eyes). You might want to think more carefully about what you wish for; you really don't get anything for free. The super wealthy don't care about any of those things; all they care is that they stay super wealthy, and they'll move their money wherever they can make more of it, and if that means investing in China, or India, or Russia, or anywhere but the U. S., they will do so, while we continue to suffer. The "Free Market" is a myth.

The U. S. shit on Taiwan decades ago, because those in power realized that their corporate overlords could make boatloads of money selling us cheap Chinese crap, and the myth of supporting democracies wasn't going to do us any economic good. It's just a matter of time before China gets Taiwan back, and we won't do a damn thing about it, because our hands will be tied.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

Indeed. But it's a two edge sword with one edge getting rapidly blunter and one edge getting much much sharper.

Yes, China is rising and just by sheer numbers will surpass the US and the Euro zone in terms of economic might.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm not arguing for complete independence from China, only for substantial cuts in government so that we can live within a truly balanced budget and not have to rely on foreign subsidization of our debt from China.

Even if that were to happen, the West would still be very much dependent on China's factories. The only thing we can hope for is that the standard of living in China actually does rise to the point that it's no longer cheaper to export jobs there.

A balanced budget, while beneficial in many aspects, would not change the fact that dollars are flowing outside of the US and into China and oil producing states at a very rapid pace. Just due to this net outflow, China would have a lot of dollars in their hands -- which they may use as a bargaining chip if they wanted to.

This is not a problem of the lack of frugality, it's a structural problem of Western economies -- the US economy in particular.

[subego]

I always wondered if China would accept a deal where they get a Guantanamo like base on Taiwan in return for official recognition of Taiwan's independence.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm not arguing for complete independence from China, only for substantial cuts in government so that we can live within a truly balanced budget and not have to rely on foreign subsidization of our debt from China.

Defence, Health and Human Services, Treasury and Social Security are the biggest sink holes. I imagine you'd be arguing for equal cuts across the board?

[Doc HM]

Back when I used to create children's books, we did plenty of Atlas's. When laying out the maps the publisher had to decide if they were going to get the book printed in China (cheap) or elsewhere. If they went for China we had to ensure that all reference to Taiwan was removed and that the area it occupied on the map was shown as being China. If we forgot the chinese would print the atlas, then impound it at the docks and pulp it.

[lpkmckenna]

China will complain about these arms sales, but that's all they can do.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

China will complain about these arms sales, but that's all they can do.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Defence, Health and Human Services, Treasury and Social Security are the biggest sink holes. I imagine you'd be arguing for equal cuts across the board?

Everything needs to be cut (was I ambiguous in saying cut "everything, both discretionary and non-discretionary"?), although Defense and Treasury while still being cut considerably should face less in cuts than the Socialist programs because Defense and Treasury are actually mandated by the Constitution whereas Socialist wealth transfer is not. Social Security and Medicare should be cut down to cover only the destitute, if anyone.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Everything needs to be cut (was I ambiguous in saying cut "everything, both discretionary and non-discretionary"?), although Defense and Treasury while still being cut considerably should face less in cuts than the Socialist programs because Defense and Treasury are actually mandated by the Constitution whereas Socialist wealth transfer is not. Social Security and Medicare should be cut down to cover only the destitute, if anyone.

Umm, the Constitution does NOT mandate anything--at least not the parts related to spending money--rather the Constitution allows the federal government to do certain things.


As for your complaints about "Socialist wealth transfer", think about your dislike for that process the next time the U.S. government subsidizes the sale of U.S.-made weapons to foreign countries. There is no more horrific act of wealth transfer than taking money out of the pockets of U.S. citizens (in the form of taxes) and transferring the money to U.S. businesses (weapons manufacturers) so foreign countries can buy U.S. weapons at a discount. Not only does such a terrible act force U.S. taxpayers to subsidize U.S. weapons manufacturers--as if they needed any kind of subsidy--but it forces U.S. taxpayers to subsidize the security of foreign countries. How is that form of Defense spending in any way Constitutional?

[BLAZE_MkIV]

By the time China is in a economic and technological position to become a problem militarily the required middle class will have changed the political temperament of the country.

[Andy8]

Why does the US sells arms to a country that does not need them?

Taiwan did not ask for them.

It is more like, "Oh we need some cash, let us sell some high margin arms to Taiwan".

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Andy8 

Why does the US sells arms to a country that does not need them?

Taiwan did not ask for them.

It is more like, "Oh we need some cash, let us sell some high margin arms to Taiwan".

You forgot the <sarcasm> tag.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Andy8 

Why does the US sells arms to a country that does not need them?

Taiwan did not ask for them.

It is more like, "Oh we need some cash, let us sell some high margin arms to Taiwan".

You're saying the US sells arms to countries against their will?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Andy8 

Why does the US sells arms to a country that does not need them?

Taiwan did not ask for them.

Taiwan is interested in maintaining a good relationship to the US since it is the US which is the reason Taiwan still exists. The US, on the other hand, is interested in continuing to do business there.

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The US, on the other hand, is interested in continuing to do business there.

Exactly.

I wonder how much business that the US does with Taiwan (Taiwan importing from the US) thats not arms or arms linked.

[Chongo]

Look like Pres. Obama really doesn't want to piss off the Chicoms
Meets with the Dali Lama, but has him come in and out through the kitchen.

[Wiskedjak]

Meh. Bush was afraid of pissing off the Chinese as well. So, really, what it boils down to is that *America*, Left and Right, is afraid of pissing off the Chinese.