[Big Mac]

I firmly believe that we're coming down to the end of this world order as we know it, and I feel fine. Civilization as it is structured today isn't going to last much longer. It could be 2012 as the Mayans and others pointed to, or perhaps a few years beyond that, but I doubt we're that far way from a very different landscape.

The United States is bankrupting itself with an excess of both guns and butter, as are most other "1st World" countries (not quite as fast as US, but they're on the same path). China and other foreigners will scale back their facilitation of our enormous and ever growing federal government and its obligations, especially as we continue to monetize the debt.

Meanwhile, Iran wants desperately to nuke the Jewish state because its leadership apparently believes perpetrating a second Holocaust will bring about Islamic eschatology (and yet Ahmadinejackoff claims not to believe in the Holocaust). It simultaneously bankrolls terrorism in neighboring states. These are people who don't care about killing their own - fellow citizens and even fellow Muslims - so they have absolutely no compunction about killing everyone else.

This world order is going away, and it seems like this is happening soon. I know a great many have predicted and panicked over such beliefs in the past, but given the confluence of factors I can't imagine this world configuration enduring. My religion and prophetic tradition says it will ultimately result in the redemption of all of mankind, but it could be a very painful process to get there.

[nonhuman]

Just for the record, the Mayans at no point predicted the end of the world, and certainly not in 2012. The Mayans used multiple calendars that, just like ours, were cyclical. Our Gregorian calendar has a yearly cycle that resets every year on January 1st, just as the Hebrew calendar does the same on 1 Tishrei.

The Mayan calendar was different only in that they used several simultaneously. One reset yearly as we're used to, another had a longer period, and finally the long-count calendar, which is the one at issue here, reset every 'baktun'—about 395 years. December 2012 simply marks the end of the current baktun which, according to the Mayans, would be followed by the beginning of the next.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Just for the record, the Mayans at no point predicted the end of the world, and certainly not in 2012. The Mayans used multiple calendars that, just like ours, were cyclical. Our Gregorian calendar has a yearly cycle that resets every year on January 1st, just as the Hebrew calendar does the same on 1 Tishrei.

The Mayan calendar was different only in that they used several simultaneously. One reset yearly as we're used to, another had a longer period, and finally the long-count calendar, which is the one at issue here, reset every 'baktun'—about 395 years. December 2012 simply marks the end of the current baktun which, according to the Mayans, would be followed by the beginning of the next.

This is the "there was no year zero" all over again.

Only with the end of the world added in.

[Atheist]

Dude... why don't you just off yourself and get it over with? You really see the world in sh!t-covered glasses.

I've got a much greater faith in humanity. A large number of humans will murder and destroy each other as they've done since the beginning of time, but a greater number will keep them in check.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Dude... why don't you just off yourself and get it over with? You really see the world in sh!t-covered glasses.

You first bro, then the world won't quite as bleak to me.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Just for the record, the Mayans at no point predicted the end of the world, and certainly not in 2012..

True. Note that I didn't say End of the World, just end of this world order. I watched a lengthy lecture online from a guy who claims that the Mayan calendar that restarts after December 2012 has made great predictions about broad world trends in history, and he said 2012 marks the end of this current order and the beginning of something new. Not saying I believe that guy or that there's anything to the Mayan calendar prediction at all necessarily, but it fits with the trend. Sorry for being unclear.

[Uncle Skeleton]

So what are y'all hoarding? Bullets, canned food, gasoline, copper pennies? Or something original? Me, I'm hoarding macs.

[Warren Pease]

I'll be hoarding world orders.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

My religion and prophetic tradition says it will ultimately result in the redemption of all of mankind, but it could be a very painful process to get there.

You should read the book of Revelations sometime to get an idea of real, Christian pain

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Warren Pease 

I'll be hoarding world orders.

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

So what are y'all hoarding? Bullets, canned food, gasoline, copper pennies? Or something original? Me, I'm hoarding macs.

If the world's gonna end, may it be in a fiery apocalypse that nukes the world and gives us mutant animals, talking fenceposts, and Mad Max vehicles.

[sek929]

I feel the same way when I'm sitting in gridlock driving into Boston.

I think, "how much longer can extreme wastefulness like this continue?"

I'm hoarding valuable skills to build my own fortresses and grow my own food for the coming apocalypse. I look forward to the rebirth of New England as a self-sustaining entity, which it has been in the past. We might not get oranges or imported beer but our fertile farmland will rise again while the great plains, no longer helped by artificial irrigation and tapped by over farming, turns into a dust bowl.

Globalization is to blame in many ways. Why do I need apples from Turkey in my apple juice? Isn't it easier just to grow them, umm, here? Why does my Stanley tape measure have to be made in taiwan? The Stanley stuff from decades ago is still working, while this new disposable sh!t breaks in months.

'Saving money' by buying cheap, disposable, generic crap from overseas is absolutely retarded. I buy local whenever I can. This past summer we had grass-fed cattle steaks from one town over, it was an amazing cut of meat.

[The Final Dakar]

It's true. The most reliable quietest fan in my house is older than I am. All the new plastic ones that are $15 and you assemble yourself are either loud, weak, or unreliable.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I firmly believe that we're coming down to the end of this world order as we know it, and I feel fine. Civilization as it is structured today isn't going to last much longer. It could be 2012 as the Mayans and others pointed to, or perhaps a few years beyond that, but I doubt we're that far way from a very different landscape.

The United States is bankrupting itself with an excess of both guns and butter, as are most other "1st World" countries (not quite as fast as US, but they're on the same path). China and other foreigners will scale back their facilitation of our enormous and ever growing federal government and its obligations, especially as we continue to monetize the debt.

Meanwhile, Iran wants desperately to nuke the Jewish state because its leadership apparently believes perpetrating a second Holocaust will bring about Islamic eschatology (and yet Ahmadinejackoff claims not to believe in the Holocaust). It simultaneously bankrolls terrorism in neighboring states. These are people who don't care about killing their own - fellow citizens and even fellow Muslims - so they have absolutely no compunction about killing everyone else.

This world order is going away, and it seems like this is happening soon. I know a great many have predicted and panicked over such beliefs in the past, but given the confluence of factors I can't imagine this world configuration enduring. My religion and prophetic tradition says it will ultimately result in the redemption of all of mankind, but it could be a very painful process to get there.

Anyone for Pizza?!

[sek929]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

It's true. The most reliable quietest fan in my house is older than I am. All the new plastic ones that are $15 and you assemble yourself are either loud, weak, or unreliable.

If I bought a saw from the 50s it would be 100 times better than anything made today. With the advances in technology and manufacturing process why have our goods gotten increasingly worse?

I work on houses as old as 300 years that have no rot, while 10 year old houses have stuck windows and sagging foundations. The concept of 'saving money' absolutely ruins the quality of anything. Buying an item, no matter what it is should never be considered saving money, it's spending money. Once you can wrap your head around that fact you realize that spending your money wisely is far more important that saving a few bucks.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

It's true. The most reliable quietest fan in my house is older than I am. All the new plastic ones that are $15 and you assemble yourself are either loud, weak, or unreliable.

The most reliable fan I have ever owned is a fan I got back in, I think, around 1994. It's a 12" desk fan that has lasted longer than every other small fan I've ever had. It's showing its age in that I have to manually start it to get it going if I turn it off to clean it, but it's lasted many years longer than any standing fan my family has owned. The funny thing is, it was non-brand fan manufactured, I believe, in Thailand.

Globalization is an easy and convenient target to blame, but when producers in countries specialize in areas where they have comparative advantage and then export their surplus product to other countries, the world economy benefits from a more efficient use of resources. Of course, there are some downsides, but there are advantages too.

[The Final Dakar]

I don't know where any of my fans are made. My argument isn't against where they're made, but the attitude when they were made. As sek noted, quality on some common items has been going down, rather than up, mostly for the illusion of savings.

[Big Mac]

Anyone think American cars are worse today than they were in the 1970s or 1980s? Anyone think Toyota is doing better today than it was 10 years ago?

Quality varies - it isn't static. And economies excel in different areas as they develop throughout time. You may have been able to get a great hammer or saw 30 years ago, but electronics weren't very impressive now were they?

[sek929]

Saying globalization is entirely to blame was also hyperbole on my part, it's obviously superior in many respects, but it seems 90% of what we commonly import and consume in this country is poorly made crap that could have easily been made here for slightly more money.

[The Final Dakar]

But, to be fair, the Wal•Mart effect would all but guarantee that superior more expensive products would be snubbed for the cheap foreign ones. I am more than willing the admit I am susceptible to that (See: My shitty fans; I have learned my lesson, though).

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Anyone think American cars are worse today than they were int he 1970s or 1980s? Anyone think Toyota is doing better today than it was 10 years ago?

Cars cost 20 grand and last well over a decade, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the stuff WalMart, Target, Home Depot sells.

Massachusetts and Connecticut used to be world-class tool manufacturers, and we still buy antique tools every year to work with, they are completely superior to the products made today in every respect.

Saving money is a misnomer, you save nothing when you buy an inferior product. What we have now is a culture of throw-away disposable crap that is 'cheap.'

[Big Mac]

Well, I don't have much experience with that aspect of labor, so I don't know too much about tool quality. But if there were a demand for higher quality tools that's what would be made. The cheap stuff is perceived as good enough.

[The Final Dakar]

The issue isn't demand so much as mindset. Adjust the latter and the former would follow.

[starman]

I never post in the PL, but I saw the title, chuckled, and have to say one thing:

You didn't grow up in the 70's, did you?

HAHAHA this is nothing.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

If the world's gonna end, may it be in a fiery apocalypse that nukes the world and gives us mutant animals, talking fenceposts, and Mad Max vehicles.

Finally, somebody who has yearned for talking fenceposts!

[besson3c]

Big Mac: how does the collapse of the US = the collapse of world order? Power the likes of what the US has enjoyed comes and goes, this is nothing new.

[Big Mac]

besson, the collapse of the United States would mean the end of this world order. Absolutely, no question about it. Why?

In 1929 the United States stock market crashed, and the whole industrialized world went into a depression over it, not just the United States. And that was when economies were far less interconnected, far less dependent on each other. Long before globalization as we know it today.

Last year when the economy was in a free fall, the stock market again plunging, look at the price of gold. It should have been going up if gold truly were a store of value during financial uncertainty, but it dipped considerably during that period. Why? Because if the US goes down, gold won't be a safe haven anymore. The world economy will be completely wrecked, and no matter how coveted gold is as a precious resource, it will drop in value like a rock along with everything else - if there's ever another Depression.

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Finally, somebody who has yearned for talking fenceposts!

The fenceposts have something to say, dammit.

[The Final Dakar]

Stop leaning on me? I can't breathe through all this paint? For quality carpets visit Kaplan's carpet warehouse?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

besson, the collapse of the United States would mean the end of this world order. Absolutely, no question about it. Why?

In 1929 the United States stock market crashed, and the whole industrialized world went into a depression over it, not just the United States. And that was when economies were far less interconnected, far less dependent on each other. Long before globalization as we know it today.

Last year when the economy was in a free fall, the stock market again plunging, look at the price of gold. It should have been going up if gold truly were a store of value during financial uncertainty, but it dipped considerably during that period. Why? Because if the US goes down, gold won't be a safe haven anymore. The world economy will be completely wrecked, and no matter how coveted gold is as a precious resource, it will drop in value like a rock along with everything else - if there's ever another Depression.

So where will all that wealth go? In 1929 China and India weren't where they are today. Globalization was not a realistic option for most companies.

There may not be a single superpower the likes of the US, but China and India and others will rise in prominence, as could the EU, I guess, to make up for this deficit.

No empire lasts forever, and it is not a given that the collapse of an empire means the end of our "world order".

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Stop leaning on me? I can't breathe through all this paint? For quality carpets visit Kaplan's carpet warehouse?

I was thinking "please lick me", or "please do not hump me".

[andi*pandi]

More like lots of angry rants about formerly being a tree.

Hmm. That said, perhaps the trees would also talk. This could hinder lumberjacking... will lumberjacks survive the apocalypse?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Cars cost 20 grand and last well over a decade, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the stuff WalMart, Target, Home Depot sells.

Massachusetts and Connecticut used to be world-class tool manufacturers, and we still buy antique tools every year to work with, they are completely superior to the products made today in every respect.

Saving money is a misnomer, you save nothing when you buy an inferior product. What we have now is a culture of throw-away disposable crap that is 'cheap.'

Yeah. And doesn't America have itself to blame for that?

Every time I visit there I really notice a culture of "bigger, better, cheaper." If you want to sell something, it seems like you've just got to offer more of it, for the same price.

That's an obvious recipe for disaster, it seems to me. It's unsustainable. On that note, there probably are great tools still made in America – but they're probably boutique-style and very expensive. Those type of operations don't seem to survive unless they manage to pigeonhole themselves into a loyal fanbase who will pay whatever it takes, because they just can't compete otherwise.

It's the same thing with snowboards, oddly enough. Almost (if not all) the large manufacturers now put out cheap crap made in other parts of the world. I bought a quality board custom-made by some guy who works out of his garage and only makes a hundred or so a year. I think it was worth it.

greg

[Uncle Skeleton]

How much did that cost you?

Cheap products benefit the generalist. If you compare a tool that costs 1/5th as much but only lasts 1/5 as long, this is better for someone who only wants to use it 1/5th of the time ("the time" being the time a serious user would spend on it). This leaves the other 4/5ths of the budget available for other cheaply made tools. Instead of having 1 saw that I'll never "use up," now I can have a saw, a hammer, a screwdriver, a drill, and a wrench, and I don't care that they won't last forever because I don't intend to use them forever. Later on, if I decide to stop being a generalist and really focus on one thing, like sawing, that's when I'll spend the money for a good saw; by then I will know I actually want to continue in that specialty, and I'll also know what features I want to pay for.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

$700. Cash of course; probably would've been a little higher otherwise. Actually pretty cheap as these type of snowboards go; having zero overhead is a good way to pass on savings to customers!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by sek929 

We might not get oranges or imported beer but our fertile farmland will rise again while the great plains, no longer helped by artificial irrigation and tapped by over farming, turns into a dust bowl.

I assure you, the Great Lakes will supply all of the water the plains needs. You do realize that the New England area relies on the water in Lake Superior and is released by the Sioux Locks? It is also possible to install some locks at the bottom of Lake Huron and further limit water flow to the Eastern US states.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

So where will all that wealth go? In 1929 China and India weren't where they are today. Globalization was not a realistic option for most companies.

There may not be a single superpower the likes of the US, but China and India and others will rise in prominence, as could the EU, I guess, to make up for this deficit.

No empire lasts forever, and it is not a given that the collapse of an empire means the end of our "world order".

Your point is valid in some respects. You ask where the wealth would go under such a scenario, and the answer is it would largely evaporate, just as Trillions in paper wealth are lost and gained when the stock market sees a trough and a peak. The point that you don't understand is that every economy on earth would be devastated by a collapse of the United States, just as every economy was devastated in 1929. Perhaps the world would recover faster, perhaps not, but no economy would be left unscathed (okay, maybe some far flung self-sustaining island paradise, but that's about it).

I watched it happen in a scaled down form when we were going off the cliff early last year. Everything tanked.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I assure you, the Great Lakes will supply all of the water the plains needs. You do realize that the New England area relies on the water in Lake Superior and is released by the Sioux Locks? It is also possible to install some locks at the bottom of Lake Huron and further limit water flow to the Eastern US states.

Don't make us steal your rain.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Your point is valid in some respects. You ask where the wealth would go under such a scenario, and the answer is it would largely evaporate. The point that you don't understand is that every economy on earth would be devastated by a collapse of the United States, just as every economy was devastated in 1929. Perhaps the world would recover faster, perhaps not, but no economy would be left unscathed (okay, maybe some far flung self-sustaining island paradise, but that's about it).

I watched it happen in a scaled down form when we were going off the cliff early last year. Everything tanked.

Of course it would have an effect on the world, but our global economy as not as fragile as for this to put an end to world order as you had originally claimed, this decade, no less.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I assure you, the Great Lakes will supply all of the water the plains needs. You do realize that the New England area relies on the water in Lake Superior and is released by the Sioux Locks? It is also possible to install some locks at the bottom of Lake Huron and further limit water flow to the Eastern US states.

Most of that post was tongue-in-cheek, but I assumed our water came from the Appalachian mountain watershed? Not to mention the town I live in provides drinking water for the whole area, the next town over (called Lakeville) provides water for the two largest cities nearby (New Bedford and Taunton).

I'm no water genius, but I think you could close those locks and we'd still have plenty of water here. Course I'm often wrong

Second item on my apocalypse list is a psychic dog that can sniff out females.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Last I heard, the Great Lakes were shrinking?

greg

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Don't make us steal your rain.

It's illegal to steal rain in most states (seriously.)

[The Final Dakar]

Love to know the year that was enacted.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Most of that post was tongue-in-cheek, but I assumed our water came from the Appalachian mountain watershed? Not to mention the town I live in provides drinking water for the whole area, the next town over (called Lakeville) provides water for the two largest cities nearby (New Bedford and Taunton).

I'm no water genius, but I think you could close those locks and we'd still have plenty of water here. Course I'm often wrong

Second item on my apocalypse list is a psychic dog that can sniff out females.

Mine was a little tongue in cheek too. I have no idea if the river near detroit can be dammed or locked. But I do know that a lot of the New England area fresh water comes from pretty far inland.

My apocalypse pantry is packed.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Love to know the year that was enacted.

I think it was considered globally as unethical when China proposed doing it regularly.

Not that it would stop you. For some reason I picture you as a Judge Dredd character stating "I AM the law!".

[stumblinmike]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Well, I don't have much experience with that aspect of labor, so I don't know too much about tool quality. But if there were a demand for higher quality tools that's what would be made. The cheap stuff is perceived as good enough.

I'm willing to go out on a limb and guess you know nothing about tool quality and even less about labor! It's the bean-counters in this country that have destroyed the manufacturing industry. Why pay $7 for a carbide drill when we can get one for $3? Because the $3 one is a lower grade of carbide that won't last as long, and when it fails, it takes out multiple other tools with it. People who know nothing make the $ decision without consulting people who know something, and take the entire industry down with their arrogant smugness! Well done, your highness....

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Last I heard, the Great Lakes were shrinking?

greg

That was about 6-7 years ago. Levels have currently risen very close to average levels.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by stumblinmike 

I'm willing to go out on a limb and guess you know nothing about tool quality and even less about labor! It's the bean-counters in this country that have destroyed the manufacturing industry. Why pay $7 for a carbide drill when we can get one for $3? Because the $3 one is a lower grade of carbide that won't last as long, and when it fails, it takes out multiple other tools with it. People who know nothing make the $ decision without consulting people who know something, and take the entire industry down with their arrogant smugness! Well done, your highness....

I agree. We are seeing more and more of this where I work and it is destroying our production and our quality.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

That was about 6-7 years ago. Levels have currently risen very close to average levels.

Ahhh makes sense with the increase in precipitation I would think

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

True. Note that I didn't say End of the World, just end of this world order. I watched a lengthy lecture online from a guy who claims that the Mayan calendar that restarts after December 2012 has made great predictions about broad world trends in history, and he said 2012 marks the end of this current order and the beginning of something new. Not saying I believe that guy or that there's anything to the Mayan calendar prediction at all necessarily, but it fits with the trend. Sorry for being unclear.