[olePigeon]

BBC News - Science writer Simon Singh wins libel appeal

Most of you know I'm passionately against Chiropractic, but above is a great read.

Dr. Simon Singh had published in a science journal regarding the complete lack of scientific testing and evidence to support the claim by Chiropractors to treat many ailments, especially those in children and newborns. The British Chiropractic Association then sued Dr. Singh for libel. Dr. Singh has won on appeal. Unfortunately the battle isn't quite over, but it's looking promising.

These sick ers are manipulating the vertebrae of newborn infants, claiming they can cure colic and asthma; then they have the audacity to claim they're protecting their honesty and integrity. Damn them all to hell. Chiropractic should be illegal for anyone under 18.

[Big Mac]

Chiropractors claim to treat newborns and infants? Wow, never heard of that before.

[ort888]

We had someone recommend it to us when our baby didn't want to breast feed.

It was some sort of chiropractic technique involving shifting the baby's skull plates.

Yeah, thanks no.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ort888 

We had someone recommend it to us when our baby didn't want to breast feed.

It was some sort of chiropractic technique involving shifting the baby's skull plates.

Yeah, thanks no.

You really got a recommendation like that? That's beyond frightening.

[Doofy]

You guys realise that this is nothing to do with the subject matter and everything to do with libel law and free speech, right? "Libel" is the UK equivalent of the US "sue everybody for everything" pastime.

[Big Mac]

Hey Doofy, how do you stomach that kooky government of yours? I'm not insinuating the US is that much better because it's almost as bad in many ways and worse in some respects; what I'm trying to figure out is how you've made peace with being a citizen of the UK in spite of your very strong beliefs, because I'll either have to find a way to do the same here or bail for greener pastures.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Hey Doofy, how do you stomach that kooky government of yours? I'm not insinuating the US is that much better because it's almost as bad in many ways and worse in some respects; what I'm trying to figure out is how you've made peace with being a citizen of the UK in spite of your very strong beliefs

I went multi-flag and acquired a sort of diplomatic immunity. Which is very relaxing.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure you could do it with the CFC legislation the US has in place (short of moving and giving up your citizenship).

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You guys realise that this is nothing to do with the subject matter and everything to do with libel law and free speech, right? "Libel" is the UK equivalent of the US "sue everybody for everything" pastime.

It's only libel if it isn't factually true. I realize this was a free speech lawsuit, but the fact that the Chiropractors couldn't show that Dr. Singh's statements weren't factual is the bonus for me. The jackasses were lying through their teeth, Dr. Singh called them on it, they sued for libel, then lost on appeal.

Chiropractors are lying. Simple as that.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You really got a recommendation like that? That's beyond frightening.

Not from a doctor.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

It's only libel if it isn't factually true.

It kinda gets into weird areas with defamation of character and the like. You can be had for speaking truths if it damages the plaintiff's rep or income.

[stupendousman]

I've had pretty great results for some back problems via a chiropractor. Though, mine isn't one of those quacks who claims they can fix anything by doing something to your bones. He pretty much sticks to fixing aches and pains caused by things being out of alignment, and provides a valuable service.

I totally agree that those folks who make unproven claims need to be held accountable though. It's modern day snake oil.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It kinda gets into weird areas with defamation of character and the like. You can be had for speaking truths if it damages the plaintiff's rep or income.

That sounds really ridiculous.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Though, mine isn't one of those quacks who claims they can fix anything by doing something to your bones...

I guarantee 100% that if you see a chiropractor, they will always find something wrong with your back. Always. They depend on repeat business because they only ever have one treatment, the moment your spine is actually working correctly, they can't afford the payments on their yacht. The following phrase couldn't be more appropriate for chiropractic: If your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

You could be the model of fitness with 100 medical doctors saying that you're the perfect specimen of the human animal, but a chiropractor will tell you your back is all messed up and you need to come in for multiple sessions.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I guarantee 100% that if you see a chiropractor, they will always find something wrong with your back. Always.

Especially if you go in with something wrong with your back!

I know when I do this, and in the middle of the treatment I can feel the pain going away, I'm pretty sure there was something wrong with the alignment of my spine. Depending on what I'm doing, this might happen every 18 months or so. I go in, a quick push here, pull there, and after several days of discomfort I'm A-OK.

They depend on repeat business because they only ever have one treatment, the moment your spine is actually working correctly, they can't afford the payments on their yacht. The following phrase couldn't be more appropriate for chiropractic: If your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Like I said....I only go in to get the "hammer" when I've got a "nail". It's possible that some hammers won't be able to take care of the nail in question, but I've always been able to get my "nail" taken care of by the hammer I use.

You could be the model of fitness with 100 medical doctors saying that you're the perfect specimen of the human animal, but a chiropractor will tell you your back is all messed up and you need to come in for multiple sessions.

To be honest, ALL doctors make their money by getting repeat business. If you aren't ever sick, they can't afford their yachts. Some will make stuff up to be able to bill out services, but the majority will stick to fixing stuff that's broke. That's the case with my chiropractor. He suggests multiple visits IF I'm still having problems but I normally get taken care of after one visit. He never suggests making an appointment for anything unless I'm actually having problems the symptoms of which point to an alignment problem.

I know there are a lot out there that will claim ever ill ever known to man can be cured by a chiropractor, but there are a lot out there that offer a valuable resource for those who have actual problems that can be alleviated by aligning the spine.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

I know when I do this, and in the middle of the treatment I can feel the pain going away, I'm pretty sure there was something wrong with the alignment of my spine.

...
there are a lot out there that offer a valuable resource for those who have actual problems that can be alleviated by aligning the spine.

And how, exactly, was your spine "out of alignment"? Vertebrae sticking out here and there I suppose?

greg

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

And how, exactly, was your spine "out of alignment"? Vertebrae sticking out here and there I suppose?

greg

Not exactly in place, no. Sort of a slight dislocation.

I can go in, just tell him I'm having discomfort in my back and after laying me on my stomach and lining my legs and feet up point to exactly where I'm having pain just by looking. Then, he'll press one way and pull the other and I'm fixed. If not immediately, by about 5 hours later the pain I've had for days goes away. Sometimes my body fixes itself or I can lay on the floor in a ball and roll or stretch around and get the kinks worked out. I usually only go if I've had discomfort for several days and it doesn't seem to go away.

Sometimes it's not in my back though. Sometimes it's my neck and when that goes back in place, you usually hear a little "pop" and the pain I was having is alleviated.

I've seen chiropractors advertise the ability to treat everything under the sun though, and I think that's bunk. I also pretty sure if you have any real spinal deficiencies, they aren't going to be able to handle that either.

[mattyb]

Sudden outbreak of common sense

Good title. It won't last, it never does. I've got a bet down that Labour win the next election.

BTW, I'm not saying that anything (well OK the weather) is better over in France.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

To be honest, ALL doctors make their money by getting repeat business. If you aren't ever sick, they can't afford their yachts.

A general practitioner deals with a myriad of problems with an entire spectrum of treatments for each problem, not just one treatment for everything under the sun like a chiropractor.

If you break your arm, you go to the doctor. They set it, splint or cast it, then let it heal. When it's healed, you're done. You generally don't ever have to visit the doctor again about your arm. A doctor will treat you and not expect you to come back for the same problem, unless it's a chronic condition.

With a chiropractor, everything is chronic because everything is related to the central nervous system and its magical energies. Got a cold? Adjust your back. Problems sleeping? Adjust your back. Hurt your arm? Adjust the back. Ingrown toenail? Adjust the back.

Are you seeing a pattern here? Probably not, otherwise you wouldn't be seeing a chiropractor.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

And how, exactly, was your spine "out of alignment"? Vertebrae sticking out here and there I suppose?

Chiropractors are the only people that use that term in a regular phrase. Also, read up on some of the words they invented. They're pretty amusing. They sound technical like they might come out of a medical textbook, but it's complete gibberish. It's so when they're pretending to be doctors, they can sound like they know what they're talking about.

What's doubly amusing is listening to how a medical doctor explains what's wrong in an x-ray, and how a chiropractor explains what's wrong in an x-ray.

Should a medical doctor ever tell you your spine is out of alignment, you're going to have to start thinking about whether you want to sit or stand for the rest of your life.

[olePigeon]

I think perhaps the most frustrating thing with Chiropractors and alternative medicine in general are the people that seek these fake remedies out. They're so critical of science in general, be it medical or otherwise; so quick to scrutinize and criticize vaccines, the Large Hadron Collider, stem cell research, etc. Don't get me wrong, that's the absolutely fantastic part about their mind set, it's important to be critical and skeptical, it's what makes good science.

However, the other side to this equation is that these exact same people who are so critical of the scientific community, welcome with open arms and without any question the absolute bullsh*t that are chiropractors, homeopathy, penis enlargers, daily vitamins, weight loss pills, Jenny McCarthy, and healing crystals.

What happened to all the skepticism they brought in such abundance when they were worried about the effects of saw dust in a vaccine?

[Wiskedjak]

I knew my local chiropractor was a quack the moment he said the first session was free.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by wiskedjak 

i knew my local chiropractor was a quack the moment he said the first session was free.

qft

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

A general practitioner deals with a myriad of problems with an entire spectrum of treatments for each problem, not just one treatment for everything under the sun like a chiropractor.

Like any other specialist, a chiropractor deals with one specific area. A good one will have a variety of techniques and treatments to deal with the problem in question.

If you break your arm, you go to the doctor. They set it, splint or cast it, then let it heal. When it's healed, you're done. You generally don't ever have to visit the doctor again about your arm.

I don't have to go back to the chiropractor again unless I do again, what I did to cause the problems. I've not went for 3 years now. It's because we figured out it was the position I was putting myself in while I was sleeping, and I followed his instructions and really haven't had any problems since.

Your views on this issue aren't much different than the way a person who had bad experiences with someone of a different race decides that all people of that race are of little use.

A doctor will treat you and not expect you to come back for the same problem, unless it's a chronic condition.

With a chiropractor, everything is chronic because everything is related to the central nervous system and its magical energies. Got a cold? Adjust your back. Problems sleeping? Adjust your back. Hurt your arm? Adjust the back. Ingrown toenail? Adjust the back.

As I explained before, I'm sure there are chiropractors like that. I've been to two and neither one suggested things such as that. They pretty much stuck to aleaviating discomfort caused by muscle/skeleton problems.

Are you seeing a pattern here? Probably not, otherwise you wouldn't be seeing a chiropractor.

I've had back problems. My Doctor said rest, get more exercise, prescribed a muscle relaxer and told me to see a chiropractor. That's why I did it, and that's what actually worked. You can keep engaging in your fantasies that all chiropractors are quacks, but that's pretty much a clearly ignorant stand.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I think perhaps the most frustrating thing with Chiropractors and alternative medicine in general are the people that seek these fake remedies out.

How exactly is the following a "fake remedy"? Especially when it's been proven to work?

"The most common therapeutic procedure performed by doctors of chiropractic is known as “spinal manipulation,” also called “chiropractic adjustment.” The purpose of manipulation is to restore joint mobility by manually applying a controlled force into joints that have become hypomobile – or restricted in their movement – as a result of a tissue injury. Tissue injury can be caused by a single traumatic event, such as improper lifting of a heavy object, or through repetitive stresses, such as sitting in an awkward position with poor spinal posture for an extended period of time. In either case, injured tissues undergo physical and chemical changes that can cause inflammation, pain, and diminished function for the sufferer. Manipulation, or adjustment of the affected joint and tissues, restores mobility, thereby alleviating pain and muscle tightness, and allowing tissues to heal."

Again, you are painting with such a broad brush that you're getting it all over you.

Don't go to a guy who says he can cure your cancer by pushing on your back. If you've got back pains, they often times can be of great help though. I think you're doing more damage than the average chiropractor (the ones that don't claim to treat anything other than muscular/skeleton discomfort) by spreading disinformation which could discourage people from seeking treatment that could help them that can't really be gotten any other way.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

How exactly is the following a "fake remedy"? Especially when it's been proven to work?

No it hasn't. In fact, quite the opposite. Until you enter their offices, chiropractors aren't even legally allowed to state they can treat for "subluxation." The only thing they're allowed to legally state they can treat is minor back pain, which is the exact same thing a licensed masseuse can claim. Of course, the way around this like with all snake oil is to not claim the treatment directly addresses a problem, but to state that it supports a natural bodily function that prevents the problem.

No two chiropractors will ever agree on what the proper treatment is for any symptom; they can't agree because not even chiropractors know what the hell they're treating. Their own organizations can't even agree what a "subluxation" even is because the founder of chiropractic purposefully left it ambiguous; that way you can call any abnormality in the spine a "subluxation."

A subluxation, by the way, is also a real medical term. The medical definition is "incomplete or partial dislocation—a condition, visible on x-ray films, in which the bony surfaces of a joint no longer face each other exactly but remain partially aligned." No such condition can be corrected by chiropractic treatment. Period.

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Don't go to a guy who says he can cure your cancer by pushing on your back. If you've got back pains, they often times can be of great help though. I think you're doing more damage than the average chiropractor (the ones that don't claim to treat anything other than muscular/skeleton discomfort) by spreading disinformation which could discourage people from seeking treatment that could help them that can't really be gotten any other way.

Spreading disinformation? I am stating exactly what the ACA claims they can help treat. The same people that "certify" your supposedly straight chiropractor also "certify" the guy that claims he can cure an ingrown toenail by adjust your back; they "certify" the guy that claims he can cure a scoliosis, or cure a newborn infant of colic by manipulating the base plate of the skull.

If you're having problems with your back, see an orthopedist.

How can you trust someone certified by an organization that has absolutely no moral guideline or professional responsibility to the people they're treating? When a doctor kills someone from negligence, they're banned from practicing medicine and possibly face a prison sentence; that's the risk of being a quack doctor. When a chiropractor kills someone from negligence, they're fined $1000 and allowed to continue to pretend being a doctor; they can't be sued for malpractice because a chiropractor is not a medical doctor, the ACA is not a medical board, and the risk is assumed by the patient.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You guys realize that this is nothing to do with the subject matter and everything to do with libel law and free speech, right? "Libel" is the UK equivalent of the US "sue everybody for everything" pastime.

Tom Cruise agrees.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Like any other specialist, a chiropractor deals with one specific area. A good one will have a variety of techniques and treatments to deal with the problem in question.

Except unlike any other specialist, a chiropractor doesn't actually have to be licensed in anything to practice chiropractic in 48 states. You could be a plumber and set up a practice as a chiropractic.

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Your views on this issue aren't much different than the way a person who had bad experiences with someone of a different race decides that all people of that race are of little use.

No. My views are expressed as someone who's car was stolen. I hate car thieves, their race has nothing to do with it.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

No it hasn't. In fact, quite the opposite. Until you enter their offices, chiropractors aren't even legally allowed to state they can treat for "subluxation." The only thing they're allowed to legally state they can treat is minor back pain, which is the exact same thing a licensed masseuse can claim.

The difference of course is "minor back pain" due to sore muscles and "minor back pain" due to subluxation.

I'm proof positive it works. A massage isn't going to pop my alignment back in place. When I've got a problem, I need someone who knows how to push and pull in the right spot to get everything back in order. Two different symptons, two different treatments. I'm not going to go to the Chiropractor if I just have sore muscles and I'm not going to go to a massage therapist if I'm in a lot of pain and stoved up due to subluxation.

A subluxation, by the way, is also a real medical term. The medical definition is "incomplete or partial dislocation—a condition, visible on x-ray films, in which the bony surfaces of a joint no longer face each other exactly but remain partially aligned." No such condition can be corrected by chiropractic treatment. Period.

I'm pretty sure that they aren't allowed to make claims that are impossible. More likely, you are purposefully confusing the issue.

Of course, there's a difference between major medical subluxation and common vertebral subluxation (what I've had).

The WHO definition of the chiropractic vertebral subluxation is:
"A lesion or dysfunction in a joint or motion segment in which alignment, movement integrity and/or physiological function are altered, although contact between joint surfaces remains intact. It is essentially a functional entity, which may influence biomechanical and neural integrity."

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Except unlike any other specialist, a chiropractor doesn't actually have to be licensed in anything to practice chiropractic in 48 states. You could be a plumber and set up a practice as a chiropractic.

If that's the case, then the laws should change. Both of the chiropractors I've seen have specialized training.

No. My views are expressed as someone who's car was stolen. I hate car thieves, their race has nothing to do with it.

You are lumping a whole class in as car thieves, when a great number of them have never stolen a car, just because you know that some in that class do steal cars.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

I'm proof positive it works.

People occasionally win the lottery based on numbers picked by a psychic or out of a fortune cookie, that is not proof that psychics are real and the fortune cookies come true.

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

When I've got a problem, I need someone who knows how to push and pull in the right spot to get everything back in order.

That would preclude chiropractors.

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

I'm not going to go to the Chiropractor if I just have sore muscles and I'm not going to go to a massage therapist if I'm in a lot of pain and stoved up due to subluxation.

Except the cause of your pain was the position you slept.

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

I'm pretty sure that they aren't allowed to make claims that are impossible. More likely, you are purposefully confusing the issue.

I already stated exactly how they make claims. They don't claim chiropractic treats those issues directly, that'd be illegal; they claim it treats the symptoms or supports the body in treating those conditions. That's why you can buy a pill that literally has dirt in it, yet the company that makes the pill will claim, "supports your body's immune system to fight cancer, aids, and diabetes;" purposefully making it sound like it treats those conditions.

Here's a short list of conditions the ACA lists as causes of back issues, but which adjusting the spine will somehow fix (but not directly, of course):

Inflammatory arthritis
Infection
Fracture
Blood clots
Kidney stones
Kidney infections
Osteoporosis

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Of course, there's a difference between major medical subluxation and common vertebral subluxation (what I've had).

Only because the FDA (and later WHO) forced those retards to make it more clear because people were confusing what the chiropractors mean (which is anything, really) and with what a real medical doctors means.

Chiropractic is a service to make money, not to help people. I didn't say that, the guy who founded chiropractic and the current officiating chiropractic historian said that.

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

If that's the case, then the laws should change. Both of the chiropractors I've seen have specialized training.

They don't want the laws changed because that would mean they have to be responsible. That is completely antagonistic to the founding principles of chiropractic, which is to make money and train other people to make money.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

I'm proof positive it works. A massage isn't going to pop my alignment back in place.

His point - and mine - is that chiropractors don't "change your alignment" in your vertebrae. There's no evidence at all for this. They don't "pop" anything back into place.

They just don't.

greg

[olePigeon]

Furthermore, what does a chiropractor offer that any licensed physical therapist can't? Is it because the chiropractor wears a lab coat, carries a clipboard, and calls himself doctor?

You don't need a referral from a doctor to see a chiropractor, but you may need one to see a certain medical professionals. I think part of the allure to chiropractic is the illusion that someone is making their own informed decision regarding one's health instead of a medical doctor doing it for them. This false idea that they know better about their own condition than a doctor and that a chiropractor doesn't ask questions is what makes chiropractic so appealing.

I find it ironic that stupendousman accuses me of keeping people from getting real help by spreading misinformation, when I'm doing precisely the opposite.