[olePigeon]

I'm listening to the radio about the numerous cardinals, bishops, priests, nuns etc. all over the world resigning their positions because they raped children.

Why aren't they being arrested? Why aren't they being prosecuted? Why aren't they in prison?

They raped children.

When the pope was a cardinal, he sent out "secret letters" telling the other cardinals and bishops to protect the property of the church, and to protect those child rapists, but not the children they violated.

The pope gets to hide in his little country running a child sex ring and not worry about extradition. Absolutely disgusting.

[turtle777]

Yes, it is disgusting and shameful.

They are really doing the Church a great disservice.

-t

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Why aren't they being arrested? Why aren't they being prosecuted? Why aren't they in prison?

They raped children.

Evidence.

I know it's not the sort of thing you colonials "do" before trotting someone off to the gas chamber, but here in the free world it's still an essential part of the prosecution process.

[Simon]

UK = free world???
Muahaha. You 'subjects' keep telling yourself that.

On topic, I guess some are getting away with it because it has taken so long for people to speak up and act. A lot of abuse appears to be statute-barred by now. In such cases it'll likely not even go to trial. Not even in the 'free world'.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Simon 

UK = free world???
Muahaha. You 'subjects' keep telling yourself that.

Nobody has been a "subject" since 1983.

Originally Posted by Simon 

On topic, I guess some are getting away with it because it has taken so long for people to speak up and act.

That's what I said. Rape evidence tends to go away after a couple of days.
And for some reason, most of the victims seem to prefer to go with a lawsuit some years after the alleged event rather than criminal prosecution.

Now don't get me wrong, if someone's messing with kids I'm the first there with an iron bar. But how much of this is real and how much of this is being fuelled by the lure of free money (for the "victims") and the opportunity to get one over on religion (by the Dawkins followers)?

It's a fact that the incidents of sexual abuse are actually less in the catholic church than in the US state education system. Why hasn't Ole asked about all the teachers getting away with it?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's a fact that the incidents of sexual abuse are actually less in the catholic church than in the US state education system. Why hasn't Ole asked about all the teachers getting away with it?

Not questioning the validity of your point, but I wonder that fact is stated?

[Dork.]

I think it's interesting that many of the abuse cases happened years ago, and have just started coming into knowledge in the past several years. It's also interesting that (from my view, which could be skewed), we started hearing about it in the US first, then we started hearing it from other countries. Perhaps the folks in Europe considered it an American problem, until it hit the media there?

Bishops who found priests in this situation were able to "sweep it under the rug" much more easily back in the days before the Internet and cell phones. They could transfer someone, and the odds were that the people in the priests' new area would know nothing of his history because it simply wasn't mentioned. The abused were probably not likely to talk about the situation when it first happened, because they may have felt no one would believe them. But as the stories came out in the media, and the abused were ablr to communicate directly with each other on the Internet, people who were abused twenty or thirty years ago, as well as more recent victims, felt more confidence in speaking out.

There's also some other points which I think a lot of people are missing. For one, the Catholic Church teaches that no one is beyond redemption. This may surprise some people, especially given the rhetoric that some Catholics spout concerning women who get abortions and about homosexuals. I've heard some people say that pedophiles can never be reformed, and should be locked away and/or watched permanently. Catholics simply aren't supposed to believe that: they are supposed to believe that anyone can be reformed if they are serious in their repentance and truly commit to turn their life around.

Another point is that once a man is ordained as a priest, he is always a priest. Even if he is "thrown out" for cause and no longer has the right to exercise authority on behalf of the church, he is still considered a priest. Any further acts he does as a priest would be considered "illegal" under Church law, but not "invalid".

I think when you combine these two points with the overall lack of communication cited earlier, you can at least understand why what happened happened. Once you're in "the boys' club", you're in it for life, and after so much theological training offending priests are likely to know how to express remorse properly to their superiors (especially after getting caught). Bishops are aware that nobody is perfect, and given a priest with these problems (but a stated desire to reform), their inclination will be to give them another chance. Combine that with the standard things that make a rape case so difficult to prosecute, and you start to understand why bishops thought they could "handle it themselves", as opposed to turning him over to the local authorities.

I am not defending these actions, but I think I understand why they were taken. I certainly wish the Catholic Church showed this same compassion when talking about issues like abortion, or homosexuality. And as much as the actions of the current Pope has come under scrutiny, I think he is doing an excellent job at exposing this issue to sunlight, and steering the Church in a different direction. Remember that the Church is a 2000-year-old institution run by 80-year-old men who have never gotten laid. It will take a while to change. In the old days, it would take at least 50 years until the current batch of new priests, who know not to sweep this under the rug, get into their positions of power in the Church before it was truly fixed. I think this Pope understands that the change needs to be faster this time if the Church wants to retain its relevancy.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Evidence.

There is evidence, on top of a confession and several eye witnesses, but the Vatican has stated that these issues are "Church issues" and that the Vatican should handle them. Bishops, vicars, and cardinals are stating that they are protecting pedophile priests and nuns, but refuse to name them.

Ireland is prosecuting a few, but not all involved because they can't get at everyone. The Vatican keeps interfering. They're more worried about their stupid image than protecting the children they violated.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I'm listening to the radio about the numerous cardinals, bishops, priests, nuns etc. all over the world resigning their positions because they raped children.

Why aren't they being arrested? Why aren't they being prosecuted? Why aren't they in prison?

They raped children.

When the pope was a cardinal, he sent out "secret letters" telling the other cardinals and bishops to protect the property of the church, and to protect those child rapists, but not the children they violated.

The pope gets to hide in his little country running a child sex ring and not worry about extradition. Absolutely disgusting.

Bishops/Cardinals that have resigned have done so because of the mishandling of these cases, not because they personally abused children.

Those priest that are still alive(many had died prior to accusations being made), have been arrested and prosecuted. They are also being excommunicated and/or laicized.
Please link to the "secret letter" (or are your referring to the now admittedly mistranslated version of the NY Times?)

Originally Posted by Dork. 

I think it's interesting that many of the abuse cases happened years ago, and have just started coming into knowledge in the past several years. It's also interesting that (from my view, which could be skewed), we started hearing about it in the US first, then we started hearing it from other countries. Perhaps the folks in Europe considered it an American problem, until it hit the media there?

The vast majority of the cases in the US are from twenty to thirty years ago.

Bishops who found priests in this situation were able to "sweep it under the rug" much more easily back in the days before the Internet and cell phones. They could transfer someone, and the odds were that the people in the priests' new area would know nothing of his history because it simply wasn't mentioned. The abused were probably not likely to talk about the situation when it first happened, because they may have felt no one would believe them. But as the stories came out in the media, and the abused were ablr to communicate directly with each other on the Internet, people who were abused twenty or thirty years ago, as well as more recent victims, felt more confidence in speaking out.

There's also some other points which I think a lot of people are missing. For one, the Catholic Church teaches that no one is beyond redemption. This may surprise some people, especially given the rhetoric that some Catholics spout concerning women who get abortions and about homosexuals. I've heard some people say that pedophiles can never be reformed, and should be locked away and/or watched permanently. Catholics simply aren't supposed to believe that: they are supposed to believe that anyone can be reformed if they are serious in their repentance and truly commit to turn their life around.

The prevailing thought in those days was that it was "fixable" through therapy, and that is what the bishops did, send them to therapy.

Remember that the Church is a 2000-year-old institution run by 80-year-old men who have never gotten laid.

Who said they've never been laid? Virginity is not a prerequisite to be a priest or nun. Just ask Father John Corapi. He lead one hell of a debauched life prior to coming back to the church.

Bottom line is that there have been very few new cases reported in the US since the original scandal broke. These days, a child is more likely to be assaulted by a teacher than a priest.

[olePigeon]

Screw their remorse and want for change. A woman just got 27 years in prions for lewd acts with a minor under 14; she was drunk and forced the kid to put his hands on her breasts. That was it. It was enough that a few people were witnesses and she's going to spend the rest of her life in prison. A priest rapes 200 kids and gets moved to a new perish where he rapes more children... then gets moved to another perish and rapes some more. He'll never see prison.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Screw their remorse and want for change. A woman just got 27 years in prions for lewd acts with a minor under 14; she was drunk and forced the kid to put his hands on her breasts. That was it. It was enough that a few people were witnesses and she's going to spend the rest of her life in prison. A priest rapes 200 kids and gets moved to a new perish where he rapes more children... then gets moved to another perish and rapes some more. He'll never see prison.

So if you've got evidence, prosecute him. End of.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So if you've got evidence, prosecute him. End of story.

Exactly. Send them to jail, except if she's a young hot blond, then they get probation

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Who said they've never been laid? Virginity is not a prerequisite to be a priest or nun. Just ask Father John Corapi. He lead one hell of a debauched life prior to coming back to the church.

I know. I just thought it was a good line, so I ran with it.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Why aren't they being arrested? Why aren't they being prosecuted? Why aren't they in prison?

Just in: They just discovered that more money can be extorted from the Boy Scouts, so they are suspending all accusations against the Catholic Church until Boy Scouts have been sued into oblivion.

-t

[ThinkInsane]

Well, I can tell you that when it happened locally, the DA's office got zero cooperation from the victims, as a criminal case could adversely effect their already filed lawsuits. It would seem many victims chose cash over justice. Without a cooperative complainant, it's pretty hard to prosecute a case, especially a 30 year-old molestation case, most of which had one, and only one, witness- the victim.

You know who I blame the most? The parents. My small city of 25,000 people saw five or six priests defrocked when the scandal broke, and everyone knew it had been going on, and they had known it for years. When I was younger, my mother and my grandmother used to tell me "Don't be alone with Father Chester (of course, always known as Chester the Molester, because we all knew that's exactly what he was)". Who by the way, as the priest at my parochial high school, was only interested in hearing about "sins of the flesh" in confession and would hurry you through the less interesting sins you may have had on your mind. And every goddam one of us new that creepy fat bastard was shaking hands with the bishop on the other side of that screen while he listened. I grew up hearing "Keep away from Monsignor Fafaro unless I'm around" and "if Father Mirabito ever does anything inappropriate you let me know" and "if you need to talk to a priest alone about something, make sure you only go talk to Father Donovan". Everyone knew what was going on, and yet these parents would still send their children to have "sleepovers" at the good Monsignor's place. To me, they are just as culpable as any cardinal or bishop that pulled the old purvy-priest switcheroo.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Well, I can tell you that when it happened locally, the DA's office got zero cooperation from the victims, as a criminal case could adversely effect their already filed lawsuits. It would seem many victims chose cash over justice. Without a cooperative complainant, it's pretty hard to prosecute a case, especially a 30 year-old molestation case, most of which had one, and only one, witness- the victim.

You know who I blame the most? The parents. My small city of 25,000 people saw five or six priests defrocked when the scandal broke, and everyone knew it had been going on, and they had known it for years. When I was younger, my mother and my grandmother used to tell me "Don't be alone with Father Chester (of course, always known as Chester the Molester, because we all knew that's exactly what he was)". Who by the way, as the priest at my parochial high school, was only interested in hearing about "sins of the flesh" in confession and would hurry you through the less interesting sins you may have had on your mind. And every goddam one of us new that creepy fat bastard was shaking hands with the bishop on the other side of that screen while he listened. I grew up hearing "Keep away from Monsignor Fafaro unless I'm around" and "if Father Mirabito ever does anything inappropriate you let me know" and "if you need to talk to a priest alone about something, make sure you only go talk to Father Donovan". Everyone knew what was going on, and yet these parents would still send their children to have "sleepovers" at the good Monsignor's place. To me, they are just as culpable as any cardinal or bishop that pulled the old purvy-priest switcheroo.

That sounds effed up.

[lpkmckenna]

The problem with "gay" predator priests is gonna widen: Church scandal’s next wave: Abused girls

An American study commissioned eight years ago and paid for by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops found that boys were overwhelmingly the likeliest target of predator priests. The John Jay College of Criminal Justice study, based on voluntary disclosure from church authorities (some refused to comply), determined boys accounted for 81 per cent of sex assaults. Most abuse for all victims occurred between 1960 and the 1980s.

But London-based lawyer Robert Talach, who represented McLauchlin and other Sylvestre victims, expects that male-female ratio to change within five to 10 years to reflect a trend that began in the 1970s when the church welcomed female altar servers. Researchers say disclosure of abuse is typically delayed for about 30 years, which means women assaulted as children are just starting to come to terms with what happened.

Victims of sexual abuse by priests have been mostly boys because priests had limited opportunities for private encounters with girls.

I remember when girl altar servers were a new and rare sight, and spoke then with people who disagreed with it.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Please link to the "secret letter" (or are your referring to the now admittedly mistranslated version of the NY Times?)

He might be talking about this: Crimen Sollicitationis

Crimen Sollicitationis was written in 1962 in Latin and given to Catholic bishops worldwide who are ordered to keep it locked away in the church safe.

It instructs them how to deal with priests who solicit sex from the confessional. It also deals with "any obscene external act ... with youths of either sex."

It imposes an oath of secrecy on the child victim, the priest dealing with the allegation and any witnesses.

Breaking that oath means excommunication from the Catholic Church.

This was a shameful policy. Threatening victims with excommunication is with worst abuse of the sacraments I've ever heard. It makes medieval indulgences sound perfectly innocent.

The prevailing thought in those days was that it was "fixable" through therapy, and that is what the bishops did, send them to therapy.

That's true. But the church continued to move priests into new communities even after they re-offended multiple times. The church's complicity with re-offenders is the issue that the Vatican refuses to admit. It can never regain its moral authority until it recognizes that.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

For once I actually agree with olePigeon. It's insane how much the Catholic Church gets away with when it comes to crazy molester priests.

Law enforcement should use the same RICO laws against the Catholic Church as they do against organized crime, when it's discovered that they've covered up rapes committed by their priests, and merely shuffled the perps around rather than have the proper authorities prosecute.

Then again, those same RICO laws should be used against quite a few Corrupt Organizations otherwise known as 'governments' that have been bought off by the Catholic Church so that they'll look the other way in the first place. If the full extent of it were ever known, and justice actually served, the jails would be filled not just with pedophile priests and church officials, but also city councilmen, mayors, state congressmen, a few DAs, etc. etc.

[Osedax]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's a fact that the incidents of sexual abuse are actually less in the catholic church than in the US state education system. Why hasn't Ole asked about all the teachers getting away with it?

Ok this is horrible logic.

It's like saying McDonalds has more unhappy customers then the local diner on your main street does... Of course McDonalds does, but it's because McDonalds has multiple millions of customers while the local diner has a few hundred at most.

So McDonalds could have a 99.99% happy customer rate and they'd still have more unhappy customers then your local diner, even if 99.99% of the local diner's customers were unhappy.
(these numbers are completely fictional just to clarifiy the point)

Likewise the US education system has FAR more children attending then any church or religious group, so of course they are going to have more "incidents of sexual abuse".

What you need to compare are the RATIOS of incidents, which is not what you did.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Osedax 

Ok this is horrible logic.

It's like saying McDonalds has more unhappy customers then the local diner on your main street does... Of course McDonalds does, but it's because McDonalds has multiple millions of customers while the local diner has a few hundred at most.

It's also like saying "it's OK for the Catholic Church to have incidents of sexual abuse, and for the abusers to get away with it, because the US state education system has more".

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Osedax 

Ok this is horrible logic.

No.

Originally Posted by Osedax 

Likewise the US education system has FAR more children attending then any church or religious group

No it doesn't. You might have forgotten that a world exists outside the US, but I haven't.

You're telling me that an organisation with 1,470,000,000 members who're not allowed to use birth control have less kids than the 300,000,000 odd peeps in the US?

Originally Posted by Osedax 

What you need to compare are the RATIOS of incidents, which is not what you did.

No. What I did was ask why ole constantly attacks religion yet doesn't attack secular organisations which are just as bad.

[Osedax]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No.

Yes, horrible logic.

No it doesn't. You might have forgotten that a world exists outside the US, but I haven't.

So provide the world wide number of Christan abuse cases and the number of US school abuse cases. And be sure to separate out Sunday school and catholic school from normal school.

You're telling me that an organisation with 1,470,000,000 members who're not allowed to use birth control have less kids than the 300,000,000 odd peeps in the US?

Again, source your numbers, and more importantly, provide a source to show how many of those church members are children that are at church for more then Sunday prayer, where they would have regular time alone with a priest. Just because they are Catholic doesn't mean they are in a position to be abused, heck, many "catholic's" don't even attend church regularly, much less have their kids alone with a priest.

And be sure to detail the impact of church's practices of covering up and transferring these priests instead of outing them as happens in the US school system.

You're making huge, baseless assumptions based on made up numbers. You're numbers, and thus your claims, are complete and total garbage.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You're telling me that an organisation with 1,470,000,000 members who're not allowed to use birth control have less kids than the 300,000,000 odd peeps in the US?

Irrelevant. You're using the US state education system as a straw man. Sexual abuse in US schools does not legitimize sexual abuse in Catholic churches.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Osedax 

The discussion isn't about the amount of abuse that goes on, it's about the fact that the church actively covers it up. Schools are not known to actively hide and transfer known child abusers to other school districts. The church is known to do exactly this type of thing. THAT is the issue.

And that you could even claim that an organization that actively hides and transfers known child abusers to other churchs where they can (and have) continue their abusive practices is "just as bad" as schools that will fire the teacher, you really have no clue...

The stats I've seen quoted are between 6-10% of public school students get some form of abuse before they leave the system, though this includes verbal harassment.

Also, my understanding is that a lot of teachers do get moved rather than fired. This is due in part to tenure, and in the other part to unions.

I may be mistaken, but I've certainly read there are states where it's illegal to fire a teacher for sexual harassment.

Edit: ""I've been involved in several hundred investigations," says Martin Bates, an assistant superintendent in a Salt Lake City school district. "I think I've seen that just a couple of times ... where a teacher is being pursued by a student."

Too often, problem teachers are allowed to leave quietly. That can mean future abuse for another student and another school district.

"They might deal with it internally, suspending the person or having the person move on. So their license is never investigated," says Charol Shakeshaft, a leading expert in teacher sex abuse who heads the educational leadership department at Virginia Commonwealth University.

It's a dynamic so common it has its own nicknames _ "passing the trash" or the "mobile molester.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102100144.html

This article also has figures which work out to about 9%.

[Osedax]

First, thank you for the actual numbers, it's always nice when someone supports what was said with at least an attempt to provide real facts. This is especially true when the original statements aren't your own.

Originally Posted by subego 

The stats I've seen quoted are between 6-10% of public school students get some form of abuse before they leave the system, though this includes verbal harassment.

Also, my understanding is that a lot of teachers do get moved rather than fired. This is due in part to tenure, and in the other part to unions. I may be mistaken, but I've certainly read there are states where it's illegal to fire a teacher for sexual harassment.

Yes, I was looking into this after my post and found that there is at least some of this, this is why I edited my post. It is despicable no matter where it happens, but Doofy claimed it happened more in the US school system then in the entire Catholic church.

AP: Sexual Misconduct Plagues US Schools - washingtonpost.com

This article also has figures which work out to about 9%.

I think 9% is probably to high when we're talking about the type of physical molestation that I understand happens in these church cases. But let's go with 9%.

That's 9% of ~300,000,000 (Doofy's numbers), or about 27,000,000.

The Catholic population is about 1,470,000,000 (again, Doofy's numbers). So Priests would have to molest less then 1.84% of their flock for the US school system to have a higher total rate of molestation then the Catholic church.

I don't believe for an instant that the number of incidents in the catholic church is less then 2%. I think the overall numbers will be similar to those of the school system, but the numbers are concealed by the church.

Mind you these are all very huge and very vague almost to the point of meaningless numbers, but to claim that the number of molestations in the US school system is more then that of the entire worldwide Catholic Church, as Doofy claimed, is absurd.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So if you've got evidence, prosecute him. End of.

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Exactly. Send them to jail, except if she's a young hot blond, then they get probation

Absolutely not end of story. The whole point was that the Vatican was becoming directly involved with investigations, and was in one way or another convincing the DA and local officials to drop the matter.

This was a huge story here in the U.S. years ago, and it's continuing to happen.

[Simon]

But isn't the real problem there not the Vatican, but the DA and the local officials caving to Vatican pressure? I'm not saying the Vatican is justified in doing what they did, but if the DA isn't prosecuting it's he who should get sacked, right?

[olePigeon]

The real problem is still the Vatican, as they treat all cases of sex abuse as an internal affair. They do not report these matters to any officials no matter how egregious the offense is, and do everything they can to cover up anything that becomes public. DAs and other officials has been shown to be bribed or offered other incentives to not prosecute.

[Snow-i]

So lets get some better DAs to take care of this problem, right?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

They do not report these matters to any officials no matter how egregious the offense is, and do everything they can to cover up anything that becomes public.

Now that IMHO is serious business. Is it legal to withhold such information?

[subego]

Originally Posted by Osedax 

Mind you these are all very huge and very vague almost to the point of meaningless numbers, but to claim that the number of molestations in the US school system is more then that of the entire worldwide Catholic Church, as Doofy claimed, is absurd.

I think the point is that you can compare the percentages in the church and the public school system and find them similar, but you wouldn't think that from the way it's reported.

With myself, I've lost count of how many times I've bitched about this issue with the church, I don't think I've ever complained about it with the public school system. That's out of whack.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by subego 

I think the point is that you can compare the percentages in the church and the public school system and find them similar, but you wouldn't think that from the way it's reported.

With myself, I've lost count of how many times I've bitched about this issue with the church, I don't think I've ever complained about it with the public school system. That's out of whack.

Bingo!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Irrelevant. You're using the US state education system as a straw man. Sexual abuse in US schools does not legitimize sexual abuse in Catholic churches.

No. Using the Catholic church is a straw man for all the kiddie fiddling which goes on everywhere.

But hey, it's fine to single out religion, ain't it?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Osedax 

Yes, horrible logic.

No. Perfect logic.

Originally Posted by Osedax 

So provide the world wide number of Christan abuse cases and the number of US school abuse cases. And be sure to separate out Sunday school and catholic school from normal school.

Sorry mate - I don't own an anorak. Are they comfortable?

Originally Posted by Osedax 

Again, source your numbers

No. You figure out how to use Google.

Originally Posted by Osedax 

and more importantly, provide a source to show how many of those church members are children that are at church for more then Sunday prayer, where they would have regular time alone with a priest. Just because they are Catholic doesn't mean they are in a position to be abused, heck, many "catholic's" don't even attend church regularly, much less have their kids alone with a priest.

And be sure to detail the impact of church's practices of covering up and transferring these priests instead of outing them as happens in the US school system.

You're making huge, baseless assumptions based on made up numbers. You're numbers, and thus your claims, are complete and total garbage.

Originally Posted by Osedax 

Yes, I was looking into this after my post and found that there is at least some of this, this is why I edited my post. It is despicable no matter where it happens, but Doofy claimed it happened more in the US school system then in the entire Catholic church.

I think 9% is probably to high when we're talking about the type of physical molestation that I understand happens in these church cases. But let's go with 9%.

That's 9% of ~300,000,000 (Doofy's numbers), or about 27,000,000.

The Catholic population is about 1,470,000,000 (again, Doofy's numbers). So Priests would have to molest less then 1.84% of their flock for the US school system to have a higher total rate of molestation then the Catholic church.

I don't believe for an instant that the number of incidents in the catholic church is less then 2%. I think the overall numbers will be similar to those of the school system, but the numbers are concealed by the church.

Mind you these are all very huge and very vague almost to the point of meaningless numbers, but to claim that the number of molestations in the US school system is more then that of the entire worldwide Catholic Church, as Doofy claimed, is absurd.

If you want me to treat any discussion with you as anything more than a casual pastime akin to stamping on an insignificant insect, go back to school and get your English up to scratch. Until then I won't waste my time.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The real problem is still the Vatican, as they treat all cases of sex abuse as an internal affair. They do not report these matters to any officials no matter how egregious the offense is, and do everything they can to cover up anything that becomes public. DAs and other officials has been shown to be bribed or offered other incentives to not prosecute.

So basically, you are willing to excuse corrupt prosecutors? If the DA was being bribed/coerced by the mob, would you give him a pass because it's really the mob's fault? These people are elected officials whose job is to prosecute criminals on behalf of the people. They have the power to compel testimony, with exception of things said in confession. Legally, they can put a bishop on the stand and ask "When did little Timmy's mother first tell you he was diddled by Fr. Happy-Hands? And what did you do then?". If the bishop refuses to answer, the judge can hold him in contempt. Don't excuse the people who are supposed to protect us because you hate the other organization.

And as I said in my post above, locally the DA tried to go after these priests criminally, and it wasn't the church that was able to put a stop to that, it was that not one of the victims was willing to testify because it would interfere with their big money civil suits. And although I know damn well it went on, it makes me wonder how many of these people were actually molested and how many of them just saw an opportunity to jump on the band wagon and make a pile of dough by saying "Oh yeah, he totally touched me in my bathing suit area". And even the folks that were actual victims were more interested in a check than making sure the person that violated them went to prison where he wouldn't be able to hurt anyone else. If a victim refuses to cooperate with the prosecution, in a case where the victim is likely the only witness, how do you prosecute?

You have a problem with the fact that the church was allowed to handle this internally. I have a problem with the people that allowed that to happen. The people that have a sworn duty to uphold the law and look out for the best interests of the public under the law.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

So basically, you are willing to excuse corrupt prosecutors?

No, no. They're as guilty as the Vatican, but I didn't want to shift the blame from those responsible to those corrupt. Some DAs were taking advantage of the situation, and they should also be punished accordingly.

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

You have a problem with the fact that the church was allowed to handle this internally. I have a problem with the people that allowed that to happen. The people that have a sworn duty to uphold the law and look out for the best interests of the public under the law.

Yep. If it were some guy in a van with boarded up windows, people would want justice. But the Vatican? For some reason it's OK to let them off the hook? It's so frustrating. The Tea Party wants these people in charge.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The Tea Party wants these people in charge.

What?

[dzp111]

I may be a little off-topic here, but my story will demonstrate the church's legal strength.

Twelve years ago I was fired by a parish priest after working as a music minister for nearly 7 years. The reason I was fired? Poor performance, and this was a few weeks after I've received a raise.

The real reason I got fired? The priest had the hots for me and I had many personal cards and letters to prove it too. But when I began seeing this woman, the priest freaked and fired me.

So I sue him for wrongful dismissal. Turned out that when you sue a priest, you sue the whole darn church, pope included.

So we go to court. My lawyer has all the evidence (cards and letters) in his folder and says absolutely nothing throughout the proceedings. Then the parish secretary and one of the choir members both take the stand and accuse me of sexual harassment. Sure I flirted with them on occasion but they never ever raised an issue about it. In fact, we were (I thought) friends.

At the end, I was the one accused (of sexual harassment in the workplace) and my case was thrown out. Thrown out so fast that my head spun. What did my lawyer do through it all? Sweet freak all.

I've always suspected that he was bought out. The church paid hundreds if not thousands of dollars to represent itself with a top-notch lawyer. Mine, well he cost me some $350.00. Where's the evidence now? Probably shredded prior to the proceedings.

I did write a formal complaint to the 'Law Society' (something like that) but I'm sure all my lawyer got was a slap on the wrist.

Sorry for the long story, but I like to share it whenever the opportunity arises.

As for children being molested, I'll save it for another post. I'm pretty sure I know exactly how it all started.