[turtle777]

So, simple question.

All in favor for Greece being left to their own devices should vote "Yes".
All those who think that the IMF and Europe should bail Greece out should vote "No".


My personal opinion: any bailout will only defer the inevitable.
The economy and finances in Greece are structurally unsound, and can't be fixed by just handing over more money.

I don't see how this can be fixed by throwing good money after bad.
IMO, Greece should be forced to default and leave the European Monetary system. Only then do they have a chance to regain competitiveness.

If not, I'm convinced that Germany will leave the Euro sooner or later, because they won't be willing to pay more of the stupid tax for the PIIGS.

-t

[Doofy]

The IMF should die. It only encourages idiocy.

We're next for the bailout after Labour get in again on the 7th.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

The IMF should die. It only encourages idiocy.

LOL, true.

What's scary is that Europe (except Germany) is even less strict on conditions for the bailout.

Absolute disaster.

If I was a betting man, I would say the bailout will come and Germany will leave the Euro in the next 2-5 years.

-t

[Big Mac]

It's a specter of things to come for other profligate governments and the failure of their Socialist/Redistributionist policies. The problem with Greece failing is, I don't see a clean exit out of the EU for it. Either way, the implosion will have consequences for the rest of the Euro Union and the world no matter what.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It's a specter of things to come for other profligate governments and the failure of their Socialist/Redistributionist policies. The problem with Greece failing is, I don't see a clean exit out of the EU for it. Either way, the implosion will have consequences for the rest of the Euro Union and the world no matter what.

Yes, Greece is so f*cked up, there will be implications no matter what.

To think that this can be "fixed" is utter folly.

The Germans have a nice saying: Besser ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende.

"Better to have an painful end than pains w/o end".

-t

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

LOL, true.

What's scary is that Europe (except Germany) is even less strict on conditions for the bailout.

Absolute disaster.

Print more money. Peg interest rates down because of that. Raise inflation because that's what happens when you print more moola.
Result - nobody's got a private pension worth anything and the retired become dependent on the state for handouts.
All the while blaming it on the bankers.

There's something quite Marxist about that.

[mduell]

I don't think "forced" is the right word. More like "allowed."

I read today the Hellenic Air Force is having a work-slow strike. What does that mean, walking around for PT?

[turtle777]

I find this utterly disgusting.

Who do those greeks think they are ?
Burning the EU flag to extort money out of the EU. ?

F*ck em. Let THEM burn.

-t

[OreoCookie]

Clearly, Greece shouldn't receive any financial aid by the Euro countries.
I don't think they should go bankrupt -- that's something that remains to be seen. Perhaps they can pull themselves out of this mess again.

But I find this whining about increased interest rates weird: there's a reason Greece has to pay higher interest rates for credits, doh!

[turtle777]

At this point, it's impossible for Greece to avoid default, even with Financial Aid.

The current demanded interest rates show that the market has clearly lost confidence.
Greek has been fumbling around with this for months.

Bottom line: they can't cut enough in their budget to make it work. The only way out is to leave the Eurozone and get their Drachma back, so they can devalue it against other currencies.

However, even then, it's gonna be tough: years of appeasing unions and handing out big money to government employees have lead to deeply cemented entitlements. I predict there's going to be riots, possibly a civil war.

Wake the f*ck up, America. This is what you will get if you keep spending on debt.

-t

[Kerrigan]

Greece should not be sharing a currency with Germany. It just doesn't make sense. You might as well let Sweden and Turkey share the kroner.

[Lint Police]

Junk status. Look out, here it comes...

[turtle777]

S&P cuts Greece to junk status.

It's done. Stick a fork in it.

Edit: Darn it Lint, beat me to it.

-t

[turtle777]

Portugal is next. People there already start to go on strike against potential savings measures.
How dumb. They'll be next to roll over if they don't start to get their house in order ASAP.

-t

[turtle777]

Side note: the socialist idiots still blame the Euro for the problems.

Originally Posted by FAZ.net, quoting Václav Klaus

The reason for the [Greek] crisis is NOT the Greek economic policies. It's the Euro that causes the problems.
Without the Euro, Athens could just inflate their currency and solve the problem."

WTF ?

Václav Klaus: „An Griechenlands Krise ist der Euro schuld“ - Europäische Union - Politik - FAZ.NET

Utter FAIL in terms of economics.
And FAIL in terms of logical reasoning. One more politician confusing cause and effect.

-t

[Kerrigan]

Great, let's hope this doesn't have a domino effect.

Turtle--they aren't being entirely illogical; prior to the euro, it was common for countries like Italy, Greece, and other troubled economies like Japan to inflate their way out of debt. It has never been considered responsible policy, but it helped these countries stay afloat.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Great, let's hope this doesn't have a domino effect.

Turtle--they aren't being entirely illogical; prior to the euro, it was common for countries like Italy, Greece, and other troubled economies like Japan to inflate their way out of debt. It has never been considered responsible policy, but it helped these countries stay afloat.

Actually, I'm all for them getting back their Drachma or Lira and restarting the printing press.

But still, a fixed (strong) currency is NOT the root of the problem (as Klaus suggests).
The root of the problem is entitlements and irresponsible spending.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Great, let's hope this doesn't have a domino effect.

It will. There is no way around it.

We (the Western world and its screwed up financial systems) have been kicking the can down the road since the 2008 collapse.

Instead of letting the market purge the system from unproductive use of capital (e.g. all the gambling of the banks), the governments propped the banks up.

Or instead of letting irresponsible lenders fail, they gave them bailouts.

This behavior will sooner or later lead to a crash. And it will be epic.

-t

[imitchellg5]

Question: What are the implications for the rest of the EU if Greece goes bankrupt? I assume that would hurt the Euro even more? Is it really beneficial to the EU if Greece goes under? But then again, if they bail Greece out, that's not really beneficial either is it? So what's the best case scenario?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Question: What are the implications for the rest of the EU if Greece goes bankrupt? I assume that would hurt the Euro even more? Is it really beneficial to the EU if Greece goes under? But then again, if they bail Greece out, that's not really beneficial either is it? So what's the best case scenario?

It's a stupid lie of the leftist press that a Greek bankruptcy would hurt the Euro in the long run.

What will hurt the Euro more and w/o any doubt is if the EU bails out Greece, and as a result has to print more money itself or raise taxes to come up with the money.
Greece is a bottomless pit. Any money you give them will not fix anything, but just delay the inevitable.

By letting Greece fail the Euro will ultimately gain strength, because it will show that it's not just Mickey Mouse money that will be printed as soon as one member gets irresponsible.

-t

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

It will. There is no way around it.

We (the Western world and its screwed up financial systems) have been kicking the can down the road since the 2008 collapse.

Instead of letting the market purge the system from unproductive use of capital (e.g. all the gambling of the banks), the governments propped the banks up.

Or instead of letting irresponsible lenders fail, they gave them bailouts.

This behavior will sooner or later lead to a crash. And it will be epic.

-t

I know...

What happens when countries default on their sovereign debt? Chaos.

It's quite possible that Greece will start a domino effect, taking down other profligate countries with them...Portugal, Spain, Ireland, and so forth. If the US and UK don't cut debt and spending significantly, they could fall too.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

I know...

What happens when countries default on their sovereign debt? Chaos.

It's quite possible that Greece will start a domino effect, taking down other profligate countries with them...Portugal, Spain, Ireland, and so forth. If the US and UK don't cut debt and spending significantly, they could fall too.

Then the whole world becomes like post war Germany. Printing essentially worthless money.

[Kerrigan]

Now Spain's been downgraded too.

Spain downgraded, Europe debt crisis widens - Yahoo! Finance

[Doc HM]

So this morning we had a slew of reaction packages on the news about why the markets have not responded to the Greek bailout positively. Economists going on and on about how the bail out should have been enough to stabilise Greece.

Seems pretty obvious to me. Greece was massively broke and broken. The bail out has fixed absolutely nothing. Everyone knows that Greece is incapable of meeting any of the requirements of the bail out. The Greek people simply will not accept the measures required so it just won't happen. The markets know this so they have blown right past the bailout to reflect the reality of the continuing situation.

European politicians seem unwilling to face this, so will continue down the same old road. In a few months we'll be bailing out Spain, then Portugal, then Italy, then Greece again, then maybe the UK.

Greece needs to leave the Euro and do its own thing. I'm actually a big fan of the Euro but I think this is probably the beginning of its end.

[Big Mac]

It appears based on the news coverage that the Greeks would prefer to destroy their country rather than see a cut in their entitlements. Am I missing something?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

What will hurt the Euro more and w/o any doubt is if the EU bails out Greece, and as a result has to print more money itself or raise taxes to come up with the money.
Greece is a bottomless pit. Any money you give them will not fix anything, but just delay the inevitable.

By letting Greece fail the Euro will ultimately gain strength, because it will show that it's not just Mickey Mouse money that will be printed as soon as one member gets irresponsible.

How right I was. Bailing out Greece would inevitable weaken the Euro.

All those economists that said the Euro needed the bailout to stop the fall are f*cking idiots.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It appears based on the news coverage that the Greeks would prefer to destroy their country rather than see a cut in their entitlements. Am I missing something?

To be fair, only a small fraction of the people are in that camp.

The silent majority knows and agrees that the austerity measures are necessary.

-t