[besson3c]

I'm just watching this documentary "Fuel" which deals with oil, bio diesel, and other fuel related issues:

Hulu - Fuel - Watch the full feature film now.

(if you want to watch this switch it to 288p, or else it won't play)


I don't know much about bio diesel, but I know some people that created their own bio fuels. Do you? Do you know anybody that does? Do you have any opinions on bio fuels?

Seems kind of a no brainer to reuse cooking oils and stuff as fuel. Apparently you can use bio diesel in regular diesel engines, although diesel cars are relatively uncommon here in the US.

This documentary is pretty unabashed leftist so I'm not inclined to take it at face value, but I'm still curious to learn more about these fuels and how they have been kept away from US markets.

[Shaddim]

Our city buses, and most of our taxis, run on the stuff. The smell reminds me of french fries. Mmmm.

[besson3c]

Bio diesel made from what?

[Shaddim]

Old oil from deep fryers. I think they get it from KFC and the like.

[besson3c]

That's awesome! I'm not sure if the premise of the government and their ties to big oil keeping these alternatives away from us is accurate or not, but it is troubling that this country is far behind others in developing virtually all of these non-petro fuel sources.

Other than cooking oils you can apparently make bio diesel from algae, grass clippings/compost/other yard waste, soy, corn, etc.

Most people seem to know about Willie Nelson's bio-diesel van, if he and others can drive all over the country using bio fuels such as this and busses can do the same, it is a shame that there aren't more auto companies that offer diesel engines, more/any gas stations that offer bio diesel fuel option, and perhaps tax credits to stimulate the production and usage of this fuel.

[subego]

I'm a big fan of biodiesel, but there are some kinks which need to be worked out.

The biggest is that depending upon the composition, the stuff freezes at a relatively high temperature. Second is distribution.

I started a thread on this a few years back after Mythbusters demonstrated an unmodified diesel engine working on straight corn oil (they only ran it through a filter). They also demonstrated the difference in MPG between the bio and petroleum fuels was negligible.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by subego 

I'm a big fan of biodiesel, but there are some kinks which need to be worked out.

The biggest is that depending upon the composition, the stuff freezes at a relatively high temperature. Second is distribution.

I started a thread on this a few years back after Mythbusters demonstrated an unmodified diesel engine working on straight corn oil (they only ran it through a filter). They also demonstrated the difference in MPG between the bio and petroleum fuels was negligible.

So are you using it at home?

[subego]

Nope.

Why do you ask?

[ort888]

Diesel Bio

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by subego 

Nope.

Why do you ask?

If even the self-described "big fans" don't use it... who would? Why should we care about something that isn't even used by the niche market it appeals to? The term "eating your own dogfood" comes to mind. I'm not being confrontational, it's an honest question.

I mean, I've known people that did the whole gig where they brew fuel themselves in the garage, and have a chemistry set built into their trunk, but I really don't think that demographic is relevant. I think it has to be usable by the "just works" crowd, or it won't matter in the big picture, even in the mish-mash take-all-comers version of the future.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

If even the self-described "big fans" don't use it... who would? Why should we care about something that isn't even used by the niche market it appeals to? The term "eating your own dogfood" comes to mind. I'm not being confrontational, it's an honest question.

I mean, I've known people that did the whole gig where they brew fuel themselves in the garage, and have a chemistry set built into their trunk, but I really don't think that demographic is relevant. I think it has to be usable by the "just works" crowd, or it won't matter in the big picture, even in the mish-mash take-all-comers version of the future.

It's usable by those with diesel engines, it is just not terribly convenient since if you don't make the fuel yourself (which is also inconvenient), finding and purchasing the fuel is relatively difficult.

Then again, I think this will be true for all new fuel sources until there is a real commitment to using them.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Seems kind of a no brainer to reuse cooking oils and stuff as fuel.

Not nearly enough volume to be significant. It's a neat hobby project, but nothing seriously commercial.

[Shaddim]

I decided a while back that I'm going to buy a diesel, when my old truck dies. The problem is, it's built like a tank and has the most durable V8 that Ford's ever made. It may be another decade before I scrap it.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

If even the self-described "big fans" don't use it... who would?

So, since I'm a big fan of fusion, I should order up a tokamak?

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Why should we care...

I think it has to be usable by the "just works" crowd, or it won't matter in the big picture, even in the mish-mash take-all-comers version of the future.

I agree 100%, hence my criticisms.

As to why you should care, I can't see why you wouldn't care.

• It's composed mostly of cheap, renewable resources.
• The engines are a mature technology that a bunch of auto manufacturers already make.
• It's portable. Like gasoline, and opposed to electric.
• Smells like french fries
• The biggest hurdles are infrastructure related, as opposed to electric which has both infrastructure and technological hurdles.
• Mmmmmm... French fries.

This is a jerrycan full of awesome.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I decided a while back that I'm going to buy a diesel, when my old truck dies. The problem is, it's built like a tank and has the most durable V8 that Ford's ever made. It may be another decade before I scrap it.

I'm in the same boat, but more because we maybe drive 10,000 miles a year.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by subego 

It's composed mostly of cheap, renewable resources.

Like mduell, I'm skeptical of this. It seems like peak-french-fry is going to come a lot sooner than peak-oil, in which case the whole concept can scale up to little higher than it is now, which is right around hobbyist scale. Making it from crops instead of from waste oil is worse, because suddenly your raw materials aren't free any more (financially or environmentally). In what sense is this a cheap and/or renewable resource? Is it really a resource or just a loophole (like it's only cheap because no one knows they can charge for it yet)?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Not nearly enough volume to be significant. It's a neat hobby project, but nothing seriously commercial.

If so, why not supplement this with other bio fuels? There are all sorts of ways to do so, and at the very least it can be used in addition to petro to help lower the price.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Like mduell, I'm skeptical of this. It seems like peak-french-fry is going to come a lot sooner than peak-oil, in which case the whole concept can scale up to little higher than it is now, which is right around hobbyist scale. Making it from crops instead of from waste oil is worse, because suddenly your raw materials aren't free any more (financially or environmentally). In what sense is this a cheap and/or renewable resource? Is it really a resource or just a loophole (like it's only cheap because no one knows they can charge for it yet)?

According to the documentary we make 30% more food than we need and we sell the remainder to the Chinese. We don't have to use soy or corn to produce bio fuel though, there are several ways to do so. One interesting way is algae.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

According to the documentary we make 30% more food than we need and we sell the remainder to the Chinese. We don't have to use soy or corn to produce bio fuel though, there are several ways to do so. One interesting way is algae.

Um, didn't I already answer that? "Making it from crops instead of from waste oil is worse, because suddenly your raw materials aren't free any more (financially or environmentally)." Algae you're going to have to farm as well, plus you won't have the benefit of being on dry land when you do it. You can't just pick it up off the ground and use it, you have to feed it something, and that something costs energy.

[besson3c]

The energy cost of production these fuels is an interesting variable that this documentary doesn't really explore much, not that refining oil doesn't require a lot of energy too...

Sorry Skeleton, I didn't think you were including algae as a crop.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Well all fuels are going to sound like a good idea if you don't consider the costs of production, that's the whole problem. Without considering costs we might as well just shine flashlights onto solar cells to solve our energy needs.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Well all fuels are going to sound like a good idea if you don't consider the costs of production, that's the whole problem. Without considering costs we might as well just shine flashlights onto solar cells to solve our energy needs.

Yes and no. When it comes to grass clippings and reusing cooking oil and the like, this just makes full use out of energy that was going to be spent anyway. We may not be able to replace petro with any one alternative, but with a combination of alternatives, why not? We can at least put a big dent in our oil usage.

It is not entirely implausible to me that we don't have more bio diesel usage because various powers wish to prevent this.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

We may not be able to replace petro with any one alternative, but with a combination of alternatives, why not?

It's because of scale. If you use 100 joules per day and your grass clippings and waste oil (that you produce or are responsible for producing) amount to 1/10th of a joule, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to scale that up 1000 times or even 100 times in order to make a dent in your energy requirements. You might think that every little bit helps, no matter how small, but it's not true because there is a minimum. It's like the classic mathematics problem where you add 1 + ½ + ¼ + ⅛ + ... etc etc etc and you can keep summing these values literally to infinite but still never reach 2. Basically if it doesn't scale up, it's not going to matter, and biodiesel doesn't scale up unless you give up on it being just waste products, and you start growing crops for it specifically. And then it becomes a whole different equation than when you were harvesting free waste energy.

[imitchellg5]

I'd love to try out an old diesel Benz with biodiesel, but that wouldn't work too well here for half the year.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

If even the self-described "big fans" don't use it... who would? Why should we care about something that isn't even used by the niche market it appeals to? The term "eating your own dogfood" comes to mind. I'm not being confrontational, it's an honest question.

I mean, I've known people that did the whole gig where they brew fuel themselves in the garage, and have a chemistry set built into their trunk, but I really don't think that demographic is relevant. I think it has to be usable by the "just works" crowd, or it won't matter in the big picture, even in the mish-mash take-all-comers version of the future.

I'm a big fan of rocket ships, but I don't use one at home yet.

Similarily, bio-diesel technologies can't yet be easily used at home.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Like mduell, I'm skeptical of this. It seems like peak-french-fry is going to come a lot sooner than peak-oil, in which case the whole concept can scale up to little higher than it is now, which is right around hobbyist scale. Making it from crops instead of from waste oil is worse, because suddenly your raw materials aren't free any more (financially or environmentally). In what sense is this a cheap and/or renewable resource? Is it really a resource or just a loophole (like it's only cheap because no one knows they can charge for it yet)?

It's renewable because you grow the component parts, and after you harvest, you grow them again. Is this not what renewable means?

As for cheap, what's the most it could cost per gallon before you would no longer call it such?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I'm a big fan of rocket ships, but I don't use one at home yet.

Similarily, bio-diesel technologies can't yet be easily used at home.

The whole idea of biodiesel is for home users. If ever there was a target market for biodiesel, it would be small-scale home enthusiasts. Because home-based enthusiasts are willing to be early-adopters even if it's not price-competitive yet. By contrast, you're not talking about rocket ships for home use. If you were, I would use the same heuristic to predict that they will not be feasible in the future. Precisely because home-use rockets have had enough time to catch on with home users but they have not done so, despite there being plenty of interest. Understand where I'm coming from?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by subego 

It's renewable because you grow the component parts, and after you harvest, you grow them again. Is this not what renewable means?

Because growing new currently requires that we use dino fuel for fertilizer. The abundance of petrol energy is skewing our perception of the ease of renewing these "renewable" resources. If biodiesel farmers had to eat their own dogfood (use only biodiesel energy to beget more biodiesel), I really don't think they would be able to manage a positive energy (or dollar) balance.

As for cheap, what's the most it could cost per gallon before you would no longer call it such?

More than the alternatives (nuclear, solar-thermal, wind, tidal, etc). What would the $/mile be on corn oil if we weren't using petroleum (and tax incentives) to grow the corn?

[Doofy]

Quick thoughts (without reference to any of the posts in the thread). All facts from memory.

Biodiesel works well. Bunch of Landy owners around here troll chip shops for used oil and run on that. Government doesn't like that since there's no tax involved. Algae works best, as it produces up to 50,000 litres per acre per year in the right conditions. Very easy to process at home, apparently (couple of hot water tanks and some gubbins and you're sorted). Turn a bit of Nevada into algae pools and you're sorted.

The US government ain't going to go for it because purchasing dino oil from foreigners is essentially what's keeping the dollar afloat.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

The whole idea of biodiesel is for home users. If ever there was a target market for biodiesel, it would be small-scale home enthusiasts. Because home-based enthusiasts are willing to be early-adopters even if it's not price-competitive yet. By contrast, you're not talking about rocket ships for home use. If you were, I would use the same heuristic to predict that they will not be feasible in the future. Precisely because home-use rockets have had enough time to catch on with home users but they have not done so, despite there being plenty of interest. Understand where I'm coming from?

You're missing the point, I think.

Whether biodiesel alone is enough to replace petro, it doesn't really matter. At the very least it could be a great supplement to gas, the same way that electricity is a supplement to gas in a hybrid car. Hence, it has its uses.. No?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Whether biodiesel alone is enough to replace petro, it doesn't really matter. At the very least it could be a great supplement to gas, the same way that electricity is a supplement to gas in a hybrid car. Hence, it has its uses.. No?

Only if you get more energy out of the crop than you put in (this is the point I think you're missing). Take ethanol for example, in the US you get something like 1.1 times as much energy out of the crop as what you put into it to grow it. After overheads like production inefficiencies, transportation losses (like evaporation), accidents, spills, etc, you're in very real danger of being worse off than before you started, energy-wise. The same could easily be true of bio-diesel depending on how smart you are about it. If you don't take all this into account at all (as you appear not to be doing), you're not likely to do it the right way just by chance.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Only if you get more energy out of the crop than you put in (this is the point I think you're missing). Take ethanol for example, in the US you get something like 1.1 times as much energy out of the crop as what you put into it to grow it.

This is, of course, an extremely rough estimation that could be skewed either way depending on your political leaning. And it's meaningless unless it's compared to an alternative, such as gasoline, which I have yet to see.

Would it matter if it took more energy than is contained in a single AA cell to mine materials, process, and manufacture that AA cell? Of course not, the entire point is the packaging. It's the same with ethanol - the point isn't getting an energy-positive process, but it's the end packaging of the energy, and whether or not that package is convenient.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

This is, of course, an extremely rough estimation that could be skewed either way depending on your political leaning. And it's meaningless unless it's compared to an alternative, such as gasoline, which I have yet to see.

Would it matter if it took more energy than is contained in a single AA cell to mine materials, process, and manufacture that AA cell? Of course not, the entire point is the packaging. It's the same with ethanol - the point isn't getting an energy-positive process, but it's the end packaging of the energy, and whether or not that package is convenient.

But the dino fuel (input) is already just as convenient as the biofuel (output). Same "packaging" either way. Easier even, because it can go in gasoline or diesel motors. You don't gain anything, besides greenwashing.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

But the dino fuel (input) is already just as convenient as the biofuel (output). Same "packaging" either way. Easier even, because it can go in gasoline or diesel motors. You don't gain anything, besides greenwashing.

Assuming cheap and convenient dino fuel.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Assuming cheap and convenient dino fuel.

That's exactly my point. Biofuels currently depend on dino fuel as input/raw materials. I'm skeptical that biofuels can be practical without the benefit of cheap and convenient dino fuel.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Only if you get more energy out of the crop than you put in (this is the point I think you're missing). Take ethanol for example, in the US you get something like 1.1 times as much energy out of the crop as what you put into it to grow it. After overheads like production inefficiencies, transportation losses (like evaporation), accidents, spills, etc, you're in very real danger of being worse off than before you started, energy-wise. The same could easily be true of bio-diesel depending on how smart you are about it. If you don't take all this into account at all (as you appear not to be doing), you're not likely to do it the right way just by chance.

And like I've said, the obvious low dangling fruit for an energy supplement is with energy that has already been spent (cooking oils), or in crops that do not require much energy to maintain (algae, AFAIK?) I realize the inherit questionability of growing soybeans or corn to use as energy. Not only does it have an energy cost, but a possible moral one too considering the places on Earth with actual food shortages.

[bstone]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Not nearly enough volume to be significant. It's a neat hobby project, but nothing seriously commercial.

Source?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

And like I've said, the obvious low dangling fruit for an energy supplement is with energy that has already been spent (cooking oils)

Still not scalable. Are you ever going to address this?
You're like these people that constantly argue for "cutting pork" or eliminating NASA to solve the national debt, when doing so would only change the total by ~1%. Small potatoes.

or in crops that do not require much energy to maintain (algae, AFAIK?) I realize the inherit questionability of growing soybeans or corn to use as energy. Not only does it have an energy cost, but a possible moral one too considering the places on Earth with actual food shortages.

Algae has "moral" costs too, ever heard of algal blooms? Plus algae still needs nutrients and fertilizers, and they still need water and airflow, so in this respect they are akin to soybeans and corn. Algae have the advantage of efficiency, but the disadvantage of being aqueous (while we humans aren't), which means either growing the algae in large tanks to build, maintain and heat, or harvesting it in large boats to build, maintain and transport (and in this case you also have to look out for effects on the surrounding marine ecosystem).

I'm not saying algae or biofuel in general is impossible, I'm just saying it's not a no-brainer like the video you watched would have you believe. There are significant unsolved obstacles, and it may or may not turn out to be better than the other alternative energy competitors.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Seems kind of a no brainer to reuse cooking oils and stuff as fuel. Apparently you can use bio diesel in regular diesel engines, although diesel cars are relatively uncommon here in the US.

............ but I'm still curious to learn more about these fuels and how they have been kept away from US markets.

The simple answer is it's not that simple.

Current bio diesel doesn't meet our environmental laws (without a high price tag). You have things like fryer grease and trap grease all candidates for bio diesel, but these things are extremely dirty. Loaded with sulfur, various solids, emulsifiers, and water all mixed up. The process of separating all these things (especially the sulfur) is very expensive, and uses more energy than it creates.

People who want bio diesel also tend to want strict air quality standards, which is contradictory.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Still not scalable. Are you ever going to address this?
You're like these people that constantly argue for "cutting pork" or eliminating NASA to solve the national debt, when doing so would only change the total by ~1%. Small potatoes.


Algae has "moral" costs too, ever heard of algal blooms? Plus algae still needs nutrients and fertilizers, and they still need water and airflow, so in this respect they are akin to soybeans and corn. Algae have the advantage of efficiency, but the disadvantage of being aqueous (while we humans aren't), which means either growing the algae in large tanks to build, maintain and heat, or harvesting it in large boats to build, maintain and transport (and in this case you also have to look out for effects on the surrounding marine ecosystem).

I'm not saying algae or biofuel in general is impossible, I'm just saying it's not a no-brainer like the video you watched would have you believe. There are significant unsolved obstacles, and it may or may not turn out to be better than the other alternative energy competitors.

Algae can be grown and raised in grey, black, and other non-potable water. Humans sure make a lot of polluted water that's going to grow algae one way or another. We might as well harvest it (and capture the phosphorus for fertilizer).

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

...Plus algae still needs nutrients and fertilizers, and they still need water and airflow, so in this respect they are akin to soybeans and corn...

Algae can be grown and raised in grey, black, and other non-potable water.

Just like soybeans and corn. Isn't that what I said?

[iLikebeer]

These guys have a forum for biodiesel and a lot of them use it. You might get some better answers there. http://forums.tdiclub.com/